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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted December 16, 2002 11:04 PM |
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Sorry, I'm not in charge of the U.S. military, that would be Mr. Bush. But at that time it was Clinton. Why didn't the U.N. step in? One of their purposes is to enforce international law and Humanitarian Efforts.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 17, 2002 12:22 AM |
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Not by millitary intervention, hence you guys, though they were in the area and supported the attempts to withdraw the US forces after they got themselves into another fine mess.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
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posted December 17, 2002 01:32 AM |
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LOL Wolfman and Private Hudson, you both and dargon seem to own this thread now. Why don't you two open up a debate workshop on this matter instead?
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No one knows my true nature here...
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted December 17, 2002 04:16 AM |
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okie dokie
I will start one.
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted December 18, 2002 03:01 AM |
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Quote:
First part: US soldier raped japanese women.
That's definitely a terrible act. However, to put this in perspective - 1 US soldier out of the 39,691 posted in Japan (source - http://www.dod.gov/pubs/almanac/) committed a rape for a rate of 1/39691 = 2.51E-5.
According to interpol, 2,260 rapes occured in Japan in the year 2000 (the most recent years for the statistics. Source http://www.interpol.int/Public/Statistics/ICS/2000/japan2000.pdf
The population of Japan is 126,974,628 (source - CIA world factbook http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html
If we consider the fact that logistically, rape is somewhat difficult for women to commit, one should really divide the number of rapes by the male population of Japan, which , based on the sex ratios published on the CIA factbook site, is 62191654.53 (we'll round up to 62191655). This results in a Japanese male rape rate of 3.63E-5 which is just about half again as high as the US soldier rape rate.
I don't have the exact numbers of women US soldiers posted in Japan, but women make up ~14% of the US military. This would suggest that 34,134 of the soldiers in Japan are women. Leaving a male US soldier rape rate of 2.93E-5. Admittedly, this is closer to the Japanese male rate.
Technically, that should mean that if more US soldiers are stationed in Japan, the rape rate would actually decrease. But more accurately means that the rates are about the same.
(It should be noted that I didn't correct for the fact that several million Japanese males are either too old or too young to really be considered in the rape statistics, but hey, it's gotten long enough already)
I don't have time to do research for all of the other cases, but I'd imagine you would find that, overall, the crime rate of US soldiers stationed overseas is not out of line with the crime rate of the local populace.
I'm not saying Americans are particularly saintly. They aren't. However, before you take a sensationalized case, and then decide generalize to a population, maybe you should take a look at the allegedly victimized population first.
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted December 18, 2002 03:02 AM |
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Edited By: bort on 17 Dec 2002
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Quote:
First part: US soldier raped japanese women.
That's definitely a terrible act. However, to put this in perspective - 1 US soldier out of the 39,691 posted in Japan (source - http://www.dod.gov/pubs/almanac/) committed a rape for a rate of 1/39691 = 2.51E-5.
According to interpol, 2,260 rapes occured in Japan in the year 2000 (the most recent years for the statistics. Source http://www.interpol.int/Public/Statistics/ICS/2000/japan2000.pdf
The population of Japan is 126,974,628 (source - CIA world factbook http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html
If we consider the fact that logistically, rape is somewhat difficult for women to commit, one should really divide the number of rapes by the male population of Japan, which , based on the sex ratios published on the CIA factbook site, is 62191654.53 (we'll round up to 62191655). This results in a Japanese male rape rate of 3.63E-5 which is just about half again as high as the US soldier rape rate.
I don't have the exact numbers of women US soldiers posted in Japan, but women make up ~14% of the US military. This would suggest that 34,134 of the soldiers in Japan are men. Leaving a male US soldier rape rate of 2.93E-5. Admittedly, this is closer to the Japanese male rate.
Technically, that should mean that if more US soldiers are stationed in Japan, the rape rate would actually decrease. But more accurately means that the rates are about the same.
(It should be noted that I didn't correct for the fact that several million Japanese males are either too old or too young to really be considered in the rape statistics, but hey, it's gotten long enough already)
I don't have time to do research for all of the other cases, but I'd imagine you would find that, overall, the crime rate of US soldiers stationed overseas is not out of line with the crime rate of the local populace.
I'm not saying Americans are particularly saintly. They aren't. However, before you take a sensationalized case, and then decide generalize to a population, maybe you should take a look at the allegedly victimized population first.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted December 18, 2002 04:35 AM |
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I love it! Good research bort!
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted December 18, 2002 07:39 AM |
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Quote:
I mistyped that one, your role was not to abbandon the job half done, you promised to kill or capture the swine responsible for the situation there and pulled right back out as soon as it got politically bad. You made the situation worse!
I completely agree. This is one example of why it is an enigma that Europe on the whole seems to think Clinton was such a great president. He sucked in so many ways. Nobody should start a military intervention without the fortitude to see it to fruition or at least put in a lot more effort then we did in Somalia.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted December 18, 2002 07:45 AM |
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Excellent anaylsis Bort!
But I agreed with you the first time you wrote it..no need to repost it
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 18, 2002 11:49 AM |
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I wonder what public opinion was in america at the time, as I imagine it was against continued action. I also wonder if Bush will be any more immune to the effects of this public opinion if the casualty rate rises to high in this war on terror........
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted December 19, 2002 02:49 AM |
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I hate Clinton! My grandma lives in New York and when Hillary was running she wasn't very happy.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 19, 2002 05:01 AM |
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Quote:
First part: US soldier raped japanese women.
From what I heard in the news (I may be wrong here), it wasnīt Japan or China, but South Korea, where women were raped by US soldiers. And it is my impression, that the anger wasnīt so much about the rape itself, but about the soldiersī immunity against any kind of law pursuit.
This is quite similar to what (among a few other things) makes Bush-America so ugly to many (most?) Europeans: Their insistence to stand above international right, regarding the International Criminal Court. US soldiers who are accused to be involved in crimes of war are kept immune to prosecution. Like the butchers from My Lai, they are meant to go unpunished.
A few days ago there was a report in TV about a massacre againt 3000 Taliban (POWs), commited by members of the Northern Alliance and US soldiers. True? False? It requires more investigation, noone can be sure except for the ones who filled the mass grave in the Afghan desert. Yet the US state department "knew" that it was all a bunch of lies and left-wing propaganda, and criticised German television.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 19, 2002 01:55 PM |
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Yes that's always intruiged me. Something of a one rule for you, another rule for me mentality really.
Oh and if you read Dargon's earlier musings I think you'll find he doesn't think too much of germany right now..........
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 19, 2002 02:47 PM |
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Hehe, yes, but itīs so one-sided and low-level that I didnīt find it worth to be commented on. If my country had a president who had advertised himself by creating an almost uncontestable execution record as a gouvernor, I wouldnīt concern myself with what other cancellors do in bed.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 19, 2002 03:19 PM |
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LMAO! Cheers lews that gave me a smile
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted December 20, 2002 02:07 AM |
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Quote:
A few days ago there was a report in TV about a massacre againt 3000 Taliban (POWs), commited by members of the Northern Alliance and US soldiers. True? False? It requires more investigation, noone can be sure except for the ones who filled the mass grave in the Afghan desert. Yet the US state department "knew" that it was all a bunch of lies and left-wing propaganda, and criticised German television.
As I heard, we turned over the POW's to the Northern Alliance and they treated them badly.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted December 20, 2002 08:04 AM |
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Quote:
If my country had a president who had advertised himself by creating an almost uncontestable execution record as a gouvernor, I wouldnīt concern myself with what other cancellors do in bed.
Lews...first nice to see you...second...please please please look into things before making wild accusations...I live in America...I saw all the presidential adverstising..and not ONCE was Texas' rate of captital punishment ever mentioned during Bush's ads. Also a little political education might go a long way...the govenor in a state DOES NOT convict or sentance people to death...that is the courts job.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 20, 2002 04:16 PM |
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So anyone like to defend the notion of America opting out of war crimes trials that lews raised?
I mean no offence, but the northern alliance are no less a bunch of cut-throat butchers than the taliban, I'm sure most people can imagine exactly what would happen if they were allowed to gaurd these prisoners without some form of supervision.
It kinda reminds me of the massacre sharon permitted in the Lebanon where he allowed a force of christian militia to enter a arab refugee camp knowing full well the result and not caring one bit.......... Who's going to say it is right to abbandon prisoners of war to someone you KNOW will kill them or at least not be following the geneva convention?
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HeyYou
Known Hero
and beloved food provider.
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posted December 20, 2002 04:48 PM |
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I would like to discuss this, but I'm not familiar with the details of the incident you're describing. Could you elaborate a little, or give me a news link to follow?
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"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
~ Hanlon's Razor
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 20, 2002 05:02 PM |
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If you mean the crimes tribunal, it's been some time since that so I don't have the links any more. If you mean the other, it's probably best if lews does that since he raised the issue
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