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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 13, 2003 10:38 PM |
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So ... which one of the Iraq war propaganda lies did you not swallow, Wolfman?
Which anti-war propaganda lies did you not swallow?
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 14, 2003 12:06 AM |
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So ... which one of the Iraq war propaganda lies did you not swallow, Wolfman?
Which anti-war propaganda lies did you not swallow?
Thatīs not an answer to my question. Dodging around, are we? Possible answers would have been for example:
1) "There were no American war propaganda lies."
2) "I disregarded a and b for lies, but still supported the war for reason c."
3) "I believed them, but now I understand that a, b and c have been intentional misinformation."
As for me, Iīve stated my view that our cancellorīs anti-war attitude was mainly based on opportunistic considerations (elections in september 2002). Furthermore, my opinion about the Iraq war was mainly based on:
1) The absence of evidence for weapons of mass destruction.
2) The estimation that the Iraq war would bring more radical islamism, and in consequence more terrorism.
3) Last but not least my humble opinion that dropping bombs on top of peoplesī heads is in itself not something that should be done lightly and without very good reasons. Characteristic for very good reasons is that they arenīt replaced every few days.
If you think that one of those three is based on propaganda and in contradiction with the facts, Iīm sure you are able to substantiate that.
So, are you going to answer my question now?
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 14, 2003 03:42 AM |
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So ... which one of the Iraq war propaganda lies did you not swallow, Wolfman?
Which anti-war propaganda lies did you not swallow?
Thatīs not an answer to my question. Dodging around, are we? Possible answers would have been for example:
1) "There were no American war propaganda lies."
2) "I disregarded a and b for lies, but still supported the war for reason c."
3) "I believed them, but now I understand that a, b and c have been intentional misinformation."
As for me, Iīve stated my view that our cancellorīs anti-war attitude was mainly based on opportunistic considerations (elections in september 2002). Furthermore, my opinion about the Iraq war was mainly based on:
1) The absence of evidence for weapons of mass destruction.
2) The estimation that the Iraq war would bring more radical islamism, and in consequence more terrorism.
3) Last but not least my humble opinion that dropping bombs on top of peoplesī heads is in itself not something that should be done lightly and without very good reasons. Characteristic for very good reasons is that they arenīt replaced every few days.
If you think that one of those three is based on propaganda and in contradiction with the facts, Iīm sure you are able to substantiate that.
So, are you going to answer my question now?
The beginning question seemed like a trick question to me, if I name one, it would mean that I thought I had watched a lot of propaganda and believed it. If I said none, it would seem that I admited I watched propaganda and dind't care. That is why I dodged the question, it didn't have an answer, or at least one that I was willing to give.
I support military action in Iraq and I will not change my position, sorry if that bothers you. I know what the U.S. did as far as invading Iraq and stomping out a brutal dictator was right and I will not change.
Saddam killed his own people because they did not support him, he killed a lot of people and buried them in mass graves. So did Milosevic in Bosnia if you care to remember, the Iraq situation as far as war crimes and humanitarian atrocities. But I guess that doesn't matter to the U.N., even if they try to pretend it does. I believe what I believe after researching many different news sorces, and collaborating them. Does that answer your question at all?
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted November 14, 2003 04:01 AM |
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I have to be just a little anal on this one -- corroborate. Collaborate makes it sound like you're deep throat or whoever leaked the CIA operative's name.
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Drive by posting.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 14, 2003 04:06 AM |
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I knew I was using the wrong word!  Thanks, mate
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 14, 2003 06:37 AM |
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The beginning question seemed like a trick question to me, if I name one, it would mean that I thought I had watched a lot of propaganda and believed it.
Well, I even gave you three different non-evasive answer suggestions. I donīt know whether or not you consider certain elements of American war and pre-war correspondency to be propaganda and intentional misinformation now, and if you did back then, when they were spread.
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I know what the U.S. did as far as invading Iraq and stomping out a brutal dictator was right and I will not change.
How do you know that you will not change? You said that your opinion is based on researching many different news sources, so I would expect that a possible update on these informations should have the potential to change your mind ... shouldnīt it?
For myself Iīm sure that I would gladly change my opinion on the war, for example if they would build peace and a functioning democracy within a year, or find serious material for nuclear weapons in some basement.
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Saddam killed his own people because they did not support him, he killed a lot of people and buried them in mass graves.
That is the main reason why you support the war? Not the WMDs and the connection to Al Quaede terrorism?
Do you suggest then that every other cruel dictator on the world, who murders his own people, should be brought down with bombs and invasion troops, too?
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hamsi128
Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
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posted November 14, 2003 08:50 AM |
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hamsi..i just love it when you saddam lovers come in here at foam at the mouth...it just makes the american bird soar higher in the sky
im not saddam lover.. im the one who waited frontiers during one year to save your eaglebutt
education is important on 0-6 ages, morgan its too late for you, its impossible to teach basical politeness to an adult..
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted November 15, 2003 04:56 PM |
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----AAAAARRRGH!!!! (Being her usual obnoxious self, Peace rushes in where it's absolutely none of her business to try and de-escalate a situation)
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Wouldn't bother Wolf, he's not fond of doing any kind of homework before spouting bigotted rubbish
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I do my homework! And I would have "got all hot and bothered" if your post didn't have a after it, PH.
Wolf, you did get it that PH was talking about the other guy, right? 
(Sorry for the interruption. Now, where were we?)
I think there is an imporant point to recall here. I know I have spoken out several times against the moving target of justification. But there's something the intellectuals need to keep in mind as we discuss the presence and influence of propaganda.
First, the nature of the international beast is that it involves massive amounts of intelligence, some of it quite delicate, that is not always disseminated -- anywhere, by anybody. Heads of States frequently operate with information in mind that the general public is not privy to. The complexities of situations, and the factors unknown to the general public, frequently require careful strategy (in democratic countries where peoples' opinions about their governments' actions is presumably considered) to reveal enough information (or put the right spin on it) to get public support for the action in question.
Every presidency has to deal with this, both Republican and Democratic, as well as other governments engaging in critical international actions.
The U.S. finds this quandry, I think, particularly difficult, since the American people at least suffer the illusion of being well informed and having access to information. Many are as well-informed as they can be. But any of us who are not involved at a very high level are not, it is safe to presume, actually in possession of all the facts here.
So the Administration (any Administration faced with dealing with public sentiments in any international situation) rides a delicate balance between revealing too much (which frequently cannot be done for complex reasons), and failing to garner sufficient support for the action so that it becomes disruptive to the economy and damaging to the political interests of the individual in office.
This is one of the many skills the guy in the Whitehouse has to have. It is the height of diplomacy to be able to artfully explain just enough to your constituency to get them to understand the basics of your situation and support the action, without tipping your hand as it were and revealing information that will further damage not only the particular action in question, but also ramify globally and cause further damage in other arenas.
So I guess when I gripe about Bush, my gripe is not that he has had to put a spin on the information he's working with. Everybody has to do that, as I said. My problem with him is that he has done such a poor job at it that he has created a greater than usual amount of suspicion and distrust among the people. Frankly I think his handling of this aspect of the operation in Iraq was somewhat juvenile. But that's just me.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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morgan_le_fey
Famous Hero
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posted November 15, 2003 07:55 PM |
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id like to know what you think you did to save me hamsi(foam foam foam)
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 15, 2003 08:55 PM |
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Wouldn't bother Wolf, he's not fond of doing any kind of homework before spouting bigotted rubbish
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I do my homework! And I would have "got all hot and bothered" if your post didn't have a after it, PH.
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Wolf, you did get it that PH was talking about the other guy, right?
Oh...yeah...I knew that. It would have been more clear if there was a comma before "Wolf", but this isn't grammar class, anyway.
I propose to ignore morgan_le_fey, as he has contributed little if anything to the conversation. He's just a little annoying to me, how 'bout you? Go ahead, morgan, attack my post all you want.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted November 15, 2003 09:21 PM |
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{WHEW}
(Wipes ridiculous accumulation of sweat from brow)
Can't stand it when my friends fight, you know...
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 15, 2003 09:24 PM |
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Us? Fight? Oh, never! What would give you such an idea?! Just a little heated discussion.
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Aquaman333
Famous Hero
of the seven seas
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posted November 15, 2003 09:55 PM |
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I'm sorry but this is both offensive, untrue and utterly shows the childish nature of your posting here. When you learn to debate issues based on facts and events, and not personal insults you may find people taking your posting seriously, until then you're nothing short of laughable. America may fly high or not, your comments though place you well below par and give rise to the reasoning some use about American Arrogance.[/quote
I brought this up earlier, in another thread, but, why is it that whenever an American sticks up for his country on this board, everyone gives him hell? Whenever I say the slightest thing to defend the good ol' red, white , and blue, everyone calls me an arrogant American nationalist. I'd say you guys are just as big biggots with your constant battering of a nation who donates extraordinary amounts of money in foreign aid, has one of the highest economies, religous freedom, has good people, has acceptable taxes, and is also willing to fight for what we believe in, just as what we're doing in Iraq right now.
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"Brian, look! There's a message in my Alphabits! It says,
"OOOOOOO!"."
"Peter, those are Cheerios."-Family Guy
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted November 16, 2003 12:58 AM |
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brought this up earlier, in another thread, but, why is it that whenever an American sticks up for his country on this board, everyone gives him hell? Whenever I say the slightest thing to defend the good ol' red, white , and blue, everyone calls me an arrogant American nationalist. I'd say you guys are just as big biggots with your constant battering of a nation who donates extraordinary amounts of money in foreign aid, has one of the highest economies, religous freedom, has good people, has acceptable taxes, and is also willing to fight for what we believe in, just as what we're doing in Iraq right now.
Do me the favour of reading some of the posts of the person I was referring to before making assumptions about why I said such a thing. No let me for you, please tell me how these are "sticking up for america"
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hamsi..i just love it when you saddam lovers come in here at foam at the mouth...
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id like to know what you think you did to save me hamsi(foam foam foam)
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wolfman..i think your last statement was one of the most insensible i have ever read on here....you people think because your breathing and you can type stuff in and you have an opinion....that it actually counts the same as someone who has a brain in their f%$&g head.
this is a bad mistake...
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Ok lets talk about the real reason you Europeans are whining about the removal of your hero Saddam Hussein
He's not even defending America, just attacking other countries and people on this board, quite often with generalisations and faulty logic. I don't mind people sticking up for their country, I mind them pulling other countries apart without any reasoning, generalising people/countries and attacking others for disagreeing. Next time please actually do me the favour of reading into WHY I criticised him rather than assuming why so that it fits what you wanted me to say. It stops you looking like an ass.
If you mean btw my comment on American Arrogance, well since I did not claim I believed all Americans arrogant, this is not relevant. I was saying that to some, Morgan represents what people despise about what the percieve Americans are like, the continual nationalism, (not patriotism, that's not the same) the biggotted ignorance of other people and cultures and so on. As I said, I do not believe this represents Americans overall, but to some it does and only fuels their opinions.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 16, 2003 01:10 AM |
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He's not even defending America, just attacking other countries and people on this board
Even attacking America, as attacking my posts, very rude...right on, PH.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 16, 2003 06:00 AM |
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My questions are yet unanswered ...
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 16, 2003 05:24 PM |
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How do you know that you will not change? You said that your opinion is based on researching many different news sources, so I would expect that a possible update on these informations should have the potential to change your mind ... shouldnīt it?
I don't think finding hundreds or more bodies in a mass grave can be changed. Using chemical weapons on the Kurds, that has been confirmed, the UN doesn't seem to care.
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That is the main reason why you support the war? Not the WMDs and the connection to Al Quaede terrorism?
Saddam has had WMD's, has used WMD's on his own people, how would you know if he wasn't pursuing more under the UN's nose?
And of course Al Quaida has a big part in it.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted November 16, 2003 06:13 PM |
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I don't think finding hundreds or more bodies in a mass grave can be changed. Using chemical weapons on the Kurds, that has been confirmed, the UN doesn't seem to care.
To be fair, when Hussain's men were gassing Kurds nobody seemed to care, it's a little unfair to place that blame solely on the UN's shoulders.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 16, 2003 06:25 PM |
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I said they don't care now, I didn't say anything about when it happened.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted November 16, 2003 06:30 PM |
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Yes but the UN has to deal with what he had recently, not 10 years ago. Since neither the UN, the US or the UK (both of the later with unrestricted access I might add) could find anything of any substance it's natural that the UN cannot or would not act. Also the UN can usually only act through the will of it's component countries, if they disagree it cannot intervene, so in reality the blame if it is to be placed lies with those nations, not the UN.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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