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antipaladin
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posted August 24, 2007 01:44 AM |
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no,but ending the nazi rule did not end antisemtism,pogroms happend regardlessly,atleast in israel pogorms are not happening.
jews are a netionality and a religon it derseves a countery of its own,this is a subject i will fight with my teeth if i have to protect it.
If not that i would be long dead!
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types in obscure english
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mvassilev
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posted August 24, 2007 01:48 AM |
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atleast in israel pogorms are not happening.
Israel isn't the only country without pogroms. There's no need to create a new country to avoid them.
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a religon it derseves a countery of its own
If it was a country like the Vatican, I wouldn't be complaining.
Oh, and patriotism isn't a good idea.
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Eccentric Opinion
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antipaladin
Promising
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posted August 24, 2007 01:54 AM |
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Israel isn't the only country without pogroms. There's no need to create a new country to avoid them.
True,but when chechslovkia devided into check rebublic and slovika it was ok,when we wanted to devite into israel and palastine its not ok?!
i smell hipocrassy?
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If it was a country like the Vatican, I wouldn't be complaining.
but its not just religion,its netionallity too,its own poltics and coltures,u cant just turn it into nothing. we desrve a countery of our own with own laws. if we resided in ware we ware,we wouldnt get otanomy for our lands,laws,money. we would be picked on by people,goverment cousewe still be a minorty.
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Oh, and patriotism isn't a good idea.
I hereby acuse you of hippocrasy: your "i dont want my childern there" speach is not patriotism? you are alloud too?
and its not that i speak of. i was born in a countery that is now muslim suni,you thing i'd live by now there,being a jewish democrat? if so how long!?
you should get penelised,sirously!
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types in obscure english
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 02:03 AM |
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Israel isn't the only country without pogroms. There's no need to create a new country to avoid them.
True,but when chechslovkia devided into check rebublic and slovika it was ok,when we wanted to devite into israel and palastine its not ok?!
i smell hipocrassy?
The situations are not analagous. There weren't that many Slovaks living in Czech areas, and vice versa.
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If it was a country like the Vatican, I wouldn't be complaining.
but its not just religion,its netionallity too,its own poltics and coltures,u cant just turn it into nothing. we desrve a countery of our own with own laws. if we resided in ware we ware,we wouldnt get otanomy for our lands,laws,money. we would be picked on by people,goverment cousewe still be a minorty.
Do the Cherokees have their own country? Do the Tatars? Do the Kashubians? They are all nationalities. Does every nationality need a country?
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Oh, and patriotism isn't a good idea.
I hereby acuse you of hippocrasy: your "i dont want my childern there" speach is not patriotism?
Er, what "I don't want my children there" speech are you referring to ?
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you are alloud too?
What?
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i was born in a countery that is now muslim suni,you thing i'd live by now there,being a jewish democrat? if so how long!?
Of course, if you wouldn't like it, you would have every right to move to a different country. You shouldn't, however, displace a people in that quest.
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you should get penelised,sirously!
Okay. Take a deep breath. Say to yourself, "This is just an argument on the Internet. What impact does this have on world affairs?" Calm down.
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted August 24, 2007 02:11 AM |
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ok calm down antipaladin. not that i dont agree with you
ok apart from the fact were both getting off-topic personal and even slightly racist the fact remains isreal exists here and now and has people who are willing to fight to the death for it. (but would of course rather not die). besides that everyone needs allies.just think of the subtler parts of you leaving . if you withdrawed isreal in turn might not care very much about giving china weapons.
id say shut your mouth about isreal being a mistake. i may be biased for it but that doesnt mean you could be more tactful then just saying none of us should live in our holy land
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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mvassilev
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posted August 24, 2007 02:22 AM |
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the fact remains isreal exists here and now and has people who are willing to fight to the death for it. (but would of course rather not die).
Thank you for that statement. It's nice to come back to reality from hypotheticals. But, remember, I said that the US should only get out of the Middle East if a viable alternative to oil is found. That's not the case today, though.
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besides that everyone needs allies.just think of the subtler parts of you leaving . if you withdrawed isreal in turn might not care very much about giving china weapons.
China doesn't need to be given weapons; it can make them itself. Still, you pointed out something valid: the US does indeed need allies. However, it doesn't need enemies. If it can make all of the Middle Eastern countries stop being its enemy, that's worth losing one ally.
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id say shut your mouth about isreal being a mistake. i may be biased for it but that doesnt mean you could be more tactful then just saying none of us should live in our holy land
What's so special about your holy land. What if my holy land was your house? Does that mean that I deserve to have it?
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted August 24, 2007 02:36 AM |
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id say its special because millions of people want to live there and its written in our bible that the isrealites live there.
does that mean every jew lives there? no
does it mean that a lot do want to and theres quite a valid reason why they do? yes
i believe christians read the old testament sometimes too. its not proof but its a better reason then most have for us living there.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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mvassilev
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posted August 24, 2007 02:56 AM |
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id say its special because millions of people want to live there and its written in our bible that the isrealites live there.
So? "I deserve to live in your house. You should leave." There, I wrote that. Does that mean that I deserve your house?
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i believe christians read the old testament sometimes too. its not proof but its a better reason then most have for us living there.
I think that you should be let know that the Bible will not sway me, as I'm an atheist.
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antipaladin
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posted August 24, 2007 07:10 AM |
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i guess i had an small temper menegement needed to face more work on..
but its annoying.
the differnt is mv,that jews are big nationality really big and 85% of unjew woprld hates it guts,no safe in eneyware but here,have full otanomy here.
i say you have no right living it,you stole it form indians,iroqish,apachi and of the like,will you take of ,every eurpean guy in usa since the last 200-300 years?!
No. Israel wasent mistake,but made late shuda be made ealier,we'd ghave more power.
you cant remove 7milion peoploe who have money who have career who lived there for decades to somewere else,they lose anything,i dont think any country would even seggest that. Better if u destory us lol.
im more mad couse i missjudged you MV,i thought you ware intelgent person.
btw:im an aatheist too,but it has more of a nationall influience not only relgiouse.
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types in obscure english
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 24, 2007 02:03 PM |
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Actually Israel is holy land for Jews, Muslims and Crhistians.
Israel was there a few thousand years ago but it got conquered atleast twice. Well third time is the charm.
And we can't ignore the fact that most of the christians and jews living in Africa and Middle East voluntarily converted to Islam when under its reign.
Since when did 85% of world population start hating you????? 
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baklava
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posted August 24, 2007 02:07 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 14:09, 24 Aug 2007.
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1) About Celtic history. You honestly believe that a part of Briton Celts weren't expelled to Scotland and other areas? What, Anglo Saxons came and were like "Right, chaps, have some tea, and merge with our people." Wtf. Anglo Saxons violently pushed back the native Briton Celts who resisted them. The majority, however, was either butchered or assimilated, but you cannot say that none of them were displaced.
2)Tell me, MVas, thou who hast such great knowledge in history, how did the Palestinians come to Israel in the first place?
They took it.
It all goes way back, and it's a circle. You can't say something is a good or bad idea, since, well, even if you were right it would be irrelevant. What's important is today.
You're more or less right about this: those who are stronger take the land. History teaches us so. There isn't justice about that one. There are no good guys here.
Same case with my people and Albanians. Genocides, banishments, terrorism - all for a ****ing piece of land. Nothing can justify that. But that's the way people are.
Remember the song Civil War by Guns&Roses.
You can't trust freedom when it's not in your hands,
when everybody's fighting for their promised land...
I personally don't understand why both people can't live on the same soil, but they obviously simply can't. It's oh so important as to how the thing will look on the map, and what flag will be around, and what ridiculous anthem will be heard if they win some sports competition.
Anyway, like I said, we're not here to judge, but to die. And, well, we're doing great.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 24, 2007 02:10 PM |
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Anyway, like I said, we're not here to judge, but to die. And, well, we're doing great.
Let's hope we don't take the earth with us.
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baklava
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posted August 24, 2007 02:34 PM |
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True...
But based on what we've seen by now, the chance is pretty tough
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antipaladin
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posted August 24, 2007 02:35 PM |
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Jonas: antisemtism is now still strong,mainly in eastern europe,and the USA. i dont mention muslim countrys,
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mvassilev
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posted August 24, 2007 03:09 PM |
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the differnt is mv,that jews are big nationality really big and 85% of unjew woprld hates it guts,
Not really. I haven't seen any antisemetism here in America.
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i say you have no right living it,you stole it form indians,iroqish,apachi and of the like,will you take of ,every eurpean guy in usa since the last 200-300 years?!
We had no legal right to the land, but it would be wrong to displace Americans to give the land back to the Indians. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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you cant remove 7milion peoploe who have money who have career who lived there for decades to somewere else,they lose anything,i dont think any country would even seggest that.
I agree. I'm not saying Israel should be destroyed. I'm saying that Israel shouldn't have been created.
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im more mad couse i missjudged you MV,i thought you ware intelgent person.
(Must... resist... retort...)
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1) About Celtic history. You honestly believe that a part of Briton Celts weren't expelled to Scotland and other areas? What, Anglo Saxons came and were like "Right, chaps, have some tea, and merge with our people." Wtf. Anglo Saxons violently pushed back the native Briton Celts who resisted them. The majority, however, was either butchered or assimilated, but you cannot say that none of them were displaced.
Most were assimilated.
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2)Tell me, MVas, thou who hast such great knowledge in history, how did the Palestinians come to Israel in the first place?
They took it.
It all goes way back, and it's a circle. You can't say something is a good or bad idea, since, well, even if you were right it would be irrelevant. What's important is today.
True, the Palestinians took the land from the Israelis. That doesn't make it right for the Israelis to displace them. But they did, and it would be wrong to displace the Israelis again.
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antisemtism is now still strong,mainly in eastern europe,and the USA.
You're not talking about the KKK, are you? It's not like you see in the movies; it's actually not that strong. And Jews are far safer in the US than they are in Israel. No Lebanese bombs in America.
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Consis
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Of Ruby
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posted August 24, 2007 04:56 PM |
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Overlooked?
With all this talk about history and who owns what land and where, it seems to me that everyone has completely disregarded the most significant reason why today's global international borders are not likely to change. With the entrance of the atomic age all countries have now been reinforced in their sovereignty. With each new country that gets its first nuclear weapons, the world becomes more and more solidified in each their own respective national border lines.
What I'm trying to say is that no country in today's world can change its borders, for expansion, without the possibility of nuclear retribution. No one wants that. And anyone who shows a propensity to use nuclear weapons runs the very real risk of becoming enemy to all nations of the world. For example, 'If you use them on your neighbors then you might use them on us when you get intercontinental ballistic capabilities or the mobility of a nuclear submarine'.
Israel, Palestinians, Iraq, Pakistan, India, North Korea, China, or any other nation....history has changed and now all future expansionist objectives have changed. Israelis and Palestinians are no different. They are not somehow immune to how the world has changed. If Israelis expand they will face nuclear retribution(as Iran has threatened). If Palestinians expand they too will face nuclear retribution from some other country (not U.S.A.) while being largely supported by American fanatics who believe Israel belongs to the Jews.
The world has changed. The nuclear age cannot and will not be turned back.
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mvassilev
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posted August 24, 2007 05:14 PM |
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What you said is an important consideration, but you have to remember a few things:
1. Iran does not yet have nuclear weapons.
2. Nuclear weapons are a last resort.
3. Not everyone has nuclear weapons.
And, techically, they shouldn't even be called weapons. A more accurate term would be "nuclear deterrent". Having nukes is more of a defensive measure than an offensive one.
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Consis
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posted August 24, 2007 11:16 PM |
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Well...
I believe Iran has nukes.
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baklava
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posted August 24, 2007 11:55 PM |
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Two wrongs don't make a right.
I thought that was how we function, MVas. Your social contract, remember? You said how it's perfectly reasonable for someone to break it if they don't have to face the consequences...
But it's different in the case where your butt is at stake, isn't it? 
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If Palestinians expand they too will face nuclear retribution from some other country (not U.S.A.)
Then which one? France? Switzerland? Jamaica?
Come on. There was no nuclear retribution when USA attacked Yugoslavia in 1999, or in the Korean war, or in this recent war between Israel and Lebanon... Not to mention African conflicts.
Nuclear retribution can only happen by countries which actually have nukes. No country will launch nukes in support of another one. Speaking of two wrongs that don't make a right.
What's most important today is demagogy. It's not important what you're armed with, or what you are going to do; it's important what people think you're armed with and what you would do.
That's some sort of international foreplay (which alludes war is like sex, right? People are sperm, war goals are the egg cell, and nuclear weapons - AIDS. A moment of fun and an eternity of regrets...  )
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
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posted August 25, 2007 12:08 AM |
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I believe Iran has nukes.
If Iran had nukes, it would have tested them already. And that's noticable.
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I thought that was how we function, MVas. Your social contract, remember? You said how it's perfectly reasonable for someone to break it if they don't have to face the consequences...
But it's different in the case where your butt is at stake, isn't it?
But they would face the consequences. Remember, one day Britain displaces the Palestinians, the next day it displaces you. If we start moving people around like on a chess board, we can't expect it to be without consequences.
And if I can save my butt, I will do everything in my power to do so.
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