|
|
Conn
Responsible
Famous Hero
God slayer
|
posted July 27, 2002 03:52 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Dargon and Celfious: Why bother wasting your breath on everything you're saying if you know all you're going to get back is scorn.
As i see it, this is a discussion between adults. We each have a point of view, and we try to bring arguments to support it. No one is attacking anyone else, and everything is disscused in a civilized manner.So what if it may never end? New ideas or thoughts can come out of this conversation, and i for one enjoy seeing how other people think. What's your problem with that?? If you don't have anything to say for or against any of the views expressed in this forum, why exactly are you posting?
To Celfious:
Why backing out? Sure, it might get heated, but i hope we're all smart enough to realize that we're not attacking anything or anyone here, and that we can have a conversation without it turning into a flame war. After all, isn't this what a forum is supposed to do? Bring people from all over the world toghether, so that they can share their opinions on all kinds of subjects. I for one enjoy a debate, as long as it's kept to the point, and no one reverts to personal attacks. Anyway, it's your decision...
____________
 Whatever does not kill us, only makes us stronger
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted July 27, 2002 05:09 PM |
|
|
cat you feel ignored? only 1 person answere my points!
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
|
|
posted July 27, 2002 09:07 PM |
|
|
Nobody answered mine... if you don't feel your position is strong enough to answer everything from verybody, you have no position. We were taught that at United Nations. Aaah, good times...
*hugs him* nevermind, be can argue together
____________
 Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag
http://aozos.com/phpBB2/index.php
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted July 27, 2002 10:34 PM |
|
|
Hell cat I'll argue/discuss anything with anyone from any perspective anytime!
My Engilsh teacher used to hate me because I would spend 1/2 an essay proving a opinion and the other 1/2 disproving it using information rather than opinion
|
|
Conn
Responsible
Famous Hero
God slayer
|
posted July 27, 2002 10:38 PM |
|
|
Well, then just pick something...There have been planety of posts in this thread...Just comment on something, and ppl will answer...
____________
Whatever does not kill us, only makes us stronger
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted July 27, 2002 10:40 PM |
|
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted July 27, 2002 10:43 PM |
|
|
sorry hit return by accident and don't know how to edit a post.
I did pick pleanty of points and argued both sides of the coin. I'm not into personal insults (unless it's a complete idiot like that Brazillian guy) or personal attacks and would rather just make a general attack on either side's views to show that their are strong and weak points.
|
|
Conn
Responsible
Famous Hero
God slayer
|
|
posted July 27, 2002 10:48 PM |
|
|
Quote:
sorry hit return by accident and don't know how to edit a post.
I did pick pleanty of points and argued both sides of the coin. I'm not into personal insults (unless it's a complete idiot like that Brazillian guy) or personal attacks and would rather just make a general attack on either side's views to show that their are strong and weak points.
Heh...
1. look under your posts, there should be an "edit" option...
As for not commenting...well, i agreed with what you said, and it was more or less what i was saying( better put, obviously  ), so nothing to comment there...lol
____________
Whatever does not kill us, only makes us stronger
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted July 27, 2002 11:10 PM |
|
|
no still can't see it are you sure it is under the posts i made?
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
Conn
Responsible
Famous Hero
God slayer
|
|
posted July 27, 2002 11:15 PM |
|
|
Yes, it should be between "send e-mail" and "quote reply". Just note that when you log in, the usernmae is case sensitive...So, if when you created your profile u used any capital letters, log out, and the re-log in properly...
____________
Whatever does not kill us, only makes us stronger
|
|
Athimus_Phaeni
Famous Hero
Final Fantasy Fan
|
posted July 27, 2002 11:35 PM |
|
|
I recognize that what i wrote was stupid. I exxagerate in my words and i was shocking. I do apologize! I expect that those posts wont mark me as a stupid guy. Sorry for the US Citizens that I insulted.
____________
But I won't be
Burned by the reflection
Of the fire in your eyes
As you're starying at the sun
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted July 27, 2002 11:35 PM |
|
|
got you seen it now, must have been because I wasn't logged in properly
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
Conn
Responsible
Famous Hero
God slayer
|
|
posted July 28, 2002 12:27 AM |
|
|
Glad to help...
To Athimus:
It takes a lot of guts to admit to a mistake, then to point out a mistake of someone else's...
____________
Whatever does not kill us, only makes us stronger
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted July 28, 2002 12:40 AM |
|
|
I geuss your appology is accepted, but next time try to think before you speak. There are many yanks here and that kind of comment would only be considered an insult
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
Sir_Elric
Responsible
Famous Hero
Having a bad hair day.
|
posted July 28, 2002 02:58 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I recognize that what i wrote was stupid. I exxagerate in my words and i was shocking. I do apologize! I expect that those posts wont mark me as a stupid guy. Sorry for the US Citizens that I insulted.
IMHO it's every man/woman to their own opinion.
(Sometimes it just better not to air your opinion when you know it will cause unnecessary distress).
If your at the beach with your girlfriend and she asks, "Do you think my arse looks big in this bikini?"
You have 2 options:
1.) "No it looks just fine.", and spend a pleasant day at the beach.
or
2.) "Man I thought the sun just went behind the clouds!", and spend the rest of the day trying to get your girlfriends foot from out of your arse!
I would advise option 1.
____________
Neverwinter Nights - "City of Melnibone"
Direct connect - ausnwn2.dyndns.org:5121
|
|
2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted July 28, 2002 03:06 AM |
|
|
|
what is it with brazil and america?
|
|
Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
|
posted July 28, 2002 03:46 AM |
|
|
Excuse me, but isn't this a topic about the war on terrorism and Osama Bin Laden, not a back stabbing bite-to-bite argument on America versus the world?
Now, as in my opinion, I am not anti-American (in fact, I am pro-American)nor am I anti-Afghan, for that matter. I am only anti-terrorist and anti-racist. That does not mean that I support Al Qaeda or any other millitant group, but I do not stand 100% for George Bush either. The fact is, terrorism will always exist, and they do not necessarily come from the Middle East.
____________
No one knows my true nature here...
|
|
bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
|
|
posted July 28, 2002 04:28 AM |
|
|
Sheesh, I go away for a week and look what happens....
Okay, I'll put in my two cents on the twin topics that will always go hand in hand... American policy and the generalized Americans suck arguments. Although, to be honest, I'm actually very pleasently surprised by the way that, for the most part, the discussion hasn't strayed to far from policy into the normal "this is the list of why I hate americans" comments that seem so prevalent on the internet.
*disclaimer*
I am an American. Or a citizen of the USA, if you like. For the record, though, we are referred to as "americans" by people from other nations just as much as we refer to ourselves as "americans" so I don't think it's fair to attack us on that basis. Anyway, as an american, there is definitely going to be some prejudice and preconceptions on my part, but no more so that posts from people of any other nationality, but you should know which colored glasses I view the world through.
"The War on Terrorism"
I don't like Bush and I think that, especially immediately after the 9/11 attacks he has mishandled the situation. Not in a way that makes him an actual evil person, but in a way that does make me wish we had a different person as president. For instance, I think that his use of terminology like "crusades" was entirely innappropriate because it just confirms the world's suspicions that it is a war against Islam. As to going to war in Afghanistan, I'm not sure if there really was a reasonable alternative. First of all, I'm not exactly sure what would constitute "100%" proof that Mr. Bin Laden was behind the attacks, but the thing is, even if he wasn't behind that particular attack, we know he has been behind others, AND we know that he has the intentions and capabilities for more terrorist attacks. Mr. Bin Laden was being harbored by and protected by the Taliban government. Precisely what SHOULD the US have done? Diplomatic pressure doesn't work on governments like the Taliban.
I don't like the way that the US is so buddy buddy with Israel, but that doesn't mean that I am pro palestinian. I personally think we should pull aid to Israel. Of course, what would happen then is eventually Isreal would be overwhelmed and then the Jews in the area would be horribly persecuted and the world would complain that the US is turning a blind eye, which brings me to the next point...
"I hate Americans"
It's sort of interesting that people are "allowed" to make this kind of comment on the internet all the time. I don't mean "allowed" in the literal sense because, of course people have the right to say express their opinions, what I mean is that it's "okay" to say that. If I were to start a thread called "Why I think Botswanan's are idiots" or "All Lithuanians make love to their mothers" I'd be (rightly) flamed and penalized. Most of these statements are simply racism. Normally the justification is "well, I met x (where x is any number between 0 and 100) americans and they all were stupid and arrogant and ignorant" or they point to a policy of the american government and infer from that that 1. all americans agree with it and 2. therefore americans are evil. Well, I can't properly reply to those people because racists are racists wherever they are, whether they are american racists or racists from other places.
However, there is another form the posts take, and it comes down, pretty much, to resentment. The US is the top dog right now. There's really no way around that. Militarily, economically, technologically, whatever word that ends in "y" that you can think of, the US is dominant. American actions simply affect more people than the actions of other nations. This causes resentment, some deserved, but a lot of resentment undeserved.
The thing is, Americans are just people like everybody else and the US is just a country like any other. I'm not sure how much the US reflects upon me personally, but for the purposes of this post, I'll pretend that I have been intimately involved in every aspect of US history.
We've done a lot of things that I think I/we can be proud of and we've done a lot of things that I/we should be ashamed of. I'm ashamed that we dropped an atomic bomb on Nagasaki (although I think it was the wrong decision, I am not ashamed of the Hiroshima bomb since I think that, in the context of the world war, the first one can be viewed as an error in judgement, but shouldn't be considered an actual atrocity). I'm proud of how the US treated Japan after the surrender. There aren't very many instances where the defeated party has been treated as well as the US treated Japan, especially when you consider that, no matter how you look at it, we were the ones who were attacked in that war. I'm ashamed that we support several dictatorial governments, but I'm proud that we oppose at least some of them. I'm ashamed that we are involved in exploitative labor practices in third world nations (but, for the record, we are not the only ones who do this), but I'm proud that we have such an extensive foreign aid program. I'm proud that we have made such important contributions to science and technology (*disclaimer* I KNOW that the US has not single handedly come up with every single invention of note in the history of mankind, however, americans have been responsible for quite a few of the advances in the last 100 years, so give us SOME credit) but I'm ashamed that we seem as reluctant as we do to share some of the benefits of this technology with the rest of the world. I'm proud that if an American walks within 4 feet of you, he'll say "excuse me." Seriously, we have personal space issues, but I like that. I'm proud that we seem to be the only nation that has actually managed to make "fast food" be, well, "fast." I'm proud that we have built a nation that so many people want to move to - I've lived overseas, I've seen the lines around the Embassy waiting to apply for Visas- which of course makes me ashamed that we keep so many people from coming. I'm ashamed that we interfere so much, but at the same time, I'm proud that, at least at some level, our interfering is well intentioned much of the time. I'm proud that we invented Basketball. Come on - y'all watch it too, all around the world, so give us this one.
Finally, I'm ashamed that we have killed civilians in the war on terrorism. However, I am proud that we have made efforts in our last several engagements to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. I'm ashamed we've caused accidental deaths, but if you honestly don't know the difference between accidental deaths and purposefull targeting of civilians then, well, I guess I don't know what to say to you.
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted July 28, 2002 04:48 AM |
|
|
Now that is a guy with an opinion.
In general m8 i reckon that you are the person I come the closest to agreeing with as you see two sides of america. You are right that too many of the anti-american posters spend too much time on their criticisms of individuals and not the government.
Just one thing though, one way of looking on Pearl Harbour that means that the attack is a little bit more suspect is as follows.
The British knew through enigma that an attack was going to happen and warned the americans. It seems uncanny that ALL of the carriers in pearl left a week or so before, something that rarely happened. The Japanese did actually declare war before the attack took place, but this was hushed up in the aftermath. It was an attack yes, but not a suprise as such to the government.
Anyway everyone here should try to see things from an unbiased opinion like you did. As a brit my father and his geneation often see the Empire as rosy and fine,whereas I know that the Empire in it's day was just as arrogant and ignorant as America as a country can appear to be at times.
oh and it's my personal opinion that fast or not a mcdonalds meal is nothing to be proud of!
The last point shows what the west has said for a long time. Take the example of the IRA and Britain. The IRA will blow up a crowded shopping centre, killing and maiming maybe 100 people with intention to do so. 10 Years or so later they are let free and their lives can begin anew. On the other hand some paratroopers who were scared out of their mind and were possibly fired upon are now investigated when they fired back, trying to keep peace and order. They may have killed innocent lives, but they tried to also prevent casualties. these men's lives will forever be ruined.
That is the difference terrorists create terror and care little for who dies. Countries like the UK and USA may create terror, but only by mistakes and they DO care about those who die.
Oh and those anti-americans should remember that it is not just the USA involved in this war. Britain has backed the US again and again in trouble spots. Criticise the war on terror my all means, but remember it involves more than just americans
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
dArGOn
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 28, 2002 06:56 AM |
|
Edited By: dArGOn on 28 Jul 2002
|
Conn I can’t believe you think that US or whoever that is involved in a military campaign just launches missiles with no care in the world! I am quite amazed at the low amount of innocent casualties. As to Bush…talk about restraint and wisdom…he didn’t just launch a half baked attack after the cruel attack on us. He took at least a month or so before we ever launched the full scale campaign. I know many Americans wanted blood for blood immediately, but thank God he showed some restraint which is why the liberation of Afghan occurred so expeditiously.
As I mentioned before…we of course have multipurpose in military campaigns but that doesn’t negate the other positive motives.
Please start that 10 page praise…” US intervenes in a part of the world where it has nothing to gain, just to set things right”…..US typically does an amazing amount (too much in my opinion) selfless acts for the world….if you know how much we give both privately and as a country to foreign aid you would be shocked. In US people are constantly raising money for starving people and humanitarian aid. We easily as a nation spend more on helping others than any other nation in the world…in my opinion.
maStERgENiE The ONLY way I have ever learned something is through the exchange of ideas whether it be from books, TV, or dialogue. I thank you for enlightening me that Celfious and I will never change our minds….you could be right…but I am very comforted that you are able to judge our mind and hearts so accurately through your apparent powers of mind reading.
Private Hudson…I did respond to your posts
Cat I was going to respond to your posts…but your view point seemed so incredibly of the Pacifist mindset that I don’t want to engage the effort to debate it
Athimus_Phaeni thanks for your apology..it is accepted…sign of maturity when we can know when we have wronged others.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
