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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted July 28, 2002 07:15 AM |
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Bort I always appreciate your responses…they are typically respectful and reasoned…no matter how incorrect you are about Bush
You are right on the point that if we pulled out support of Israel that then everyone would complain about how cold and callous we are when they get taken over by their enemies.
I think your strongest point was that America made fast food fast…lol.
Private Hudson I don’t know…we must be reading very different history books about the attack on Pearl Harbor. I mean didn’t you watch the movie Pearl Harbor…it clearly showed that we didn’t know we were going to be attacked…lol…just kidding that is not where I learn about history…but still the same…the government knew?? Well that has got to be the best kept secret in America…our Navy was decimated…we barely were able to come back after that very well planned tactical attack.
I liked your point “That is the difference terrorists create terror and care little for who dies. Countries like the UK and USA may create terror, but only by mistakes and they DO care about those who die”
There now I have responded to you twice…haha
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 28, 2002 03:15 PM |
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I read books, not watch movies which are inevitably biased and unrealistic in general - take the example of U571. The film shows the US navy sending a team of people taking over a U-boat and capturing the first Enigma Machine. The reality is that the British Navy were the first AND some of them died in this vital task. It's almost like hollywood dancing on their graves in favour of more people at the box office. The navy's main power ie it's newest battleships and it's carriers were conspicous by their absence. I'm not trying to blame the USA, but can you not see the advantage of doing this. You have to imagine the scene before the event. The USA was largely isolationist and anti-war in this period, and although it was supporting the UK in a major way, a large proportion of it's people were against getting involved in a European War. Now imagine finding out about plans for a Japanese assault, suddenly a perfect way of getting the entire population behind the war.
Besides they have proved that the japanese declared war prior to the assault. The day before they sent a large document to the embassy and denounced the USA policy over China and The Dutch East Indies. The day of the attack 1/2 an hour before they sent the end to the document, with the declaration. Unfortunately being a sunday there was no-one around to transalate the document in time and no-one worked it out. The rest as they say is history.
Over Israel - it is a difficult point really, but the USA and the UK should do a lot more to force them to behave in a civilsed manner. Even in the height of the troubles in Northen Ireland the British never bombed and shelled belfast! If the only way to force them to behave right is to withdraw funding and support, then this is what is needed. During 1973 the only thing that brought the Israelis to the negotiating table was Kissinger threatening to stop the re-supply planes the USA was providing. I'm not suggesting that they should disappear from the map, but both sides must learn to settle their differences by diplomacy NOT bombs and tanks.
Once again please remember we in other Western Countries are involved here! We also give massive aid programmes in the UK and accept refugees you know. The fact that you Americans give and accept more is only indicitive of your larger GDP and country!
Finally remember that one of the reasons the War on Terrorism couldn't start straight away was because Bush was rushing around despeartely trying to get countries such as Russia and Pakistan to support them (god knows what they were promised) It also takes some time to get an assault and then peace keeping mission such as that into order.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted July 28, 2002 03:27 PM |
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I think therefore I am.
Okay. Let's say this "____" Is what we know. Given the world offer's many place's to make us think we know more.
So now we think we know "oe98f3947561iu4rtoq3iugy98q"
Right!
Given the benifit of the doubt, I'll say blue is blue, and 1&1 is 2. (Fine we know that we are and what we see is real)
So, the world has us by the nads now. Watch the TV, read newspapers book's and magazines, right.. Learn about the world.
Have you lived in anyof this for one thing?
For another, if you have you still will never know each aspect. Have you been to political world/nation thing's? If yes, you dont know the grand scheme of anything still.
I dont care if you're every where at once. you dont have the awnsers to this.
Religion. Whats the awnser?
Politic's.. What's the awnser?
I think this vs I think that
And assisting this and that are thing's (you know, what we saw on TV and stuff)
Hm 
ANyways I'll keep watching
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 28, 2002 04:11 PM |
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not entirely sure I understood most of that m8!
I don't claim to have all of the answers, I only put across my interpretation of the world based on the facts I have seen.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted July 28, 2002 06:18 PM |
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Quote:
Over Israel - it is a difficult point really, but the USA and the UK should do a lot more to force them to behave in a civilsed manner. Even in the height of the troubles in Northen Ireland the British never bombed and shelled belfast! If the only way to force them to behave right is to withdraw funding and support, then this is what is needed. During 1973 the only thing that brought the Israelis to the negotiating table was Kissinger threatening to stop the re-supply planes the USA was providing. I'm not suggesting that they should disappear from the map, but both sides must learn to settle their differences by diplomacy NOT bombs and tanks.
All I can say is "King David Hotel" or whatever the exact name of the place was. I'm surprised the UK has any sympathy for Israel at all, considering...
Quote:
Once again please remember we in other Western Countries are involved here! We also give massive aid programmes in the UK and accept refugees you know. The fact that you Americans give and accept more is only indicitive of your larger GDP and country!
Please don't think that I in any way meant to imply that the US was the only nation involved in foreign aid. I simply was saying that we DO give aid and we do some things that are humanitarian.
As to the various Pearl Harbor scenarios, I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make. Whether or not Pearl Harbor was a surprise, whether or not our Carrier fleet was mysteriously absent and whether or not war was declared first, we were still attacked. I don't mean to quote the 5 year old and say "He started it!" but, well, if you want to get technical, "he" did. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't make everything the US did in the war "okay," but in this particular case, I don't think we can be considered the aggressor.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 28, 2002 07:36 PM |
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I wasn't trying to blame the USA at all, rather point out that the conventional wisdom on PH is rather blinkered. Yes the Japanses started the war, but not in the way a large percentage of people think. The Japanese were upset with American involvement in China, trade embargoes and the Americans refusing to let them have access to oil in the Dutch East Indies. This may not excuse their actions, but to an ordinary Japanese person and their military their actions were not suspect.
You can't judge a country solely on their past exploits though. Israel is bad in my mind because of her current actions. What they did 50 years ago is not as relevant.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted July 28, 2002 09:09 PM |
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A pacifist mindset? Or did you simply realise that your own mindset was too futile and on such weak evidence that debate would be useless..?
I am far from a pacifist... I simply believe in justice and not needless slaugter. However, if you believe my remarks were pacifist, then that would make you a advocate of needless violence, surely? I also believe that undermining the ICC was not a tactically sensible thing to do, as it creates a puppet show out of the UN. As it is, it has become impossible to "kick" Israel (nothing to do with the Israli peoples here, but the government and military) from the organisation in accordance with the UN protocal based on the International Declaration of Human Rights.
This is a feeble travesty of that declaration, the whole sorry affair. But I would still love to know.. answer me this:- What is so wrong with not wanting sensless and unescessary killing? In what way will killing more people than the opposition help matters? What is wrong with a desire for peace? If peace is now wrong, then humanity is dead.
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 Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag
http://aozos.com/phpBB2/index.php
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 28, 2002 11:02 PM |
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alright cat since you feel ignored, here's a reply for you. You make a good point, but sometimes as I am sure you will agree there are good reasons for war. Take WWII no-one could with a straight face say that the war was unjustified. The only way a maniac like Hitler can be stopped is with force. This is what we now see happening with Iraq. All of our sanctions and inspectors has acheived nothing, the man flaunts his power and defies all common dignity. He is the one starving his people, buy spending oil money on arms and not food and infrastructure. From what I can gather from your post, you are not anti conflict by any means, but would prefer to see the situaton resolved with diplomatic or peaceful means. How would this be acheived with a man like Sadam in power?
By the way who called you a pacifist? I think I missed that post
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted July 28, 2002 11:17 PM |
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Oh absolutely, there is always a time and a place, which has been proven. But applied to these circunstances, in a very different era, it would be a grand anachronism to compare the two.
We have more trained and willing soldiers available now than at the advent of WW2, and as I have said, in a war situation, it is these which should fight and be fought:- see Alan Silitoe quote for details. I fail to see the point, unless absolutely nescessary, of envolving civilians who would simply like it all to go away.
WW2 may not even have happened had a trained army force been sent in at a more sensible moment.
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Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag
http://aozos.com/phpBB2/index.php
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 28, 2002 11:26 PM |
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Quote:
The only way a maniac like Hitler can be stopped is with force. This is what we now see happening with Iraq.
Oh, all right, this is what we now see happening with Iraq, so a bombing of the Iraq is the right thing to do. Let´s all proud to be American.
Is Saddam Hussein trying to conquer the world? Is he committing genocide, murdering 6 millions of Jews?
You can justify any atrocity by comparing the enemy to Hitler or Satan first.
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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted July 28, 2002 11:27 PM |
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 28, 2002 11:33 PM |
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*blush*
No, you never mentioned that before ... 
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 28, 2002 11:38 PM |
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I didn't try to say we should bomb him!
AND I'M NOT AN AMERICAN!!!!!!! IT IS NOT ONLY THE YANKS WHO ARE INVOLVED IN THIS WAR! IT IS NOT JUST AMERICANS WHO ARE THREATENED WITH TERRORISM!
Is he committing Genocide - do you remember the reports of the kurds being gassed by him? has this escaped your notice?
He has tried to create chemical weapons and other mass destruction weapons since. Ok so has the west got them, but this hardly excuses having this man have them (or anyone else for that matter).
I can put forward many reasons for removing Sadam, I don't need to compare him to Hitler. How many people should each dictator be allowed to kill before someone is prepared to say enough is enough? 1/2 million, or 2 million more? Where do we draw the line?
I don't want the US and UK to bomb innocent civilians, just for us to remove that insane man. There are numerous wasy to do this for a leader prepared to. Of course WWII could have been stopped and this is what we should do to Sadam. We should stop him before another nearby country feels his wrath. Remember he has fought two wars with his neighbours.
Wars should always be avoided to the utmost, but does anyone want to get to the stage with any terrorist supporting country where they have appeased them so much that they have grown to powerful to combat?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted July 28, 2002 11:41 PM |
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted July 28, 2002 11:57 PM |
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People of Iraq are starving becouse of sanctions, and who they see responsible for them? Well not Saddam, that's for sure...Plus there's no evidence of biological and nuclear weapons...
And US gives billions of dollars to not much more democratic Mubarak regime in Egypt. So it's OK to pay tyrants and on the other hand kill them?
Looks like US will go alone with that action but I'm realy afraid of the consequences of it...
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 29, 2002 12:05 AM |
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HELLO Sadam gets more than enough from the oil he sells to provide for his people! He chooses to have them in that condition, not the US and UK. If there is no evidence why is he so keen to hide certain facilities from the UN?
Good point about the Egyptians, but sick people like sadam fund the palestinians to blow themselves up by paying their families after they do it!
What would the consquences of ignoring him? how many more neighbours does he have to invade to get the world to sit up and take notice.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted July 29, 2002 12:09 AM |
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How do you know he has enough from oil for his people? Who could he sell it if he's under sanctions?
UN only knows of chemical weapons...then he's hide his bio and nuke fascilities realy well, as there's no evidence, or he doesn't have them...
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 29, 2002 12:18 AM |
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He is allowed to sell a certain percentage of his production and this is more than enough to feed his people IF he stopped spending money on massive arms munitions and defence.
Are you aware of how easy it is to move a facility given the time to delay the UN. In WWII the russians moved entire factories from the borders to Siberia without hardly missing a beat in tank production. It would be easy to have the production moved quickly when the UN wanted to investigate AND sadam has delayed some facilities being investigated. I admit this is hardly concrete proof, but there is grounds for suspicion until they can check for sure. This would need unrestricted access at all times though, which sadam won't allow
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 29, 2002 01:17 AM |
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Quote:
All of our sanctions and inspectors has acheived nothing, the man flaunts his power and defies all common dignity. He is the one starving his people, buy spending oil money on arms and not food and infrastructure. From what I can gather from your post, you are not anti conflict by any means, but would prefer to see the situaton resolved with diplomatic or peaceful means. How would this be acheived with a man like Sadam in power?
By the way who called you a pacifist? I think I missed that post
As you clearly state all the sanctions had achieved nothing but hurting the people, so why are they still in place?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 29, 2002 01:23 AM |
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beats me we should be taking direct action not messing around with him.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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