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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted April 13, 2015 03:32 PM |
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Edited by PandaTar at 15:33, 13 Apr 2015.
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the_green_drag said:
I just don't like the fact they seem to bind themselves with these hero classes.
Find rather disheartening not having any class to advance too. Not that it is a must, anyway.
I also don't like the fact the it is imposed, as always, to choose 3 Might and 3 Magic classes for each faction. I would find more appeasing a Magic oriented faction, such as Academy, having only 1-2 Might classes, and 4-5 Magic ones (and those magic ones be REALLY different one from the other). Same for Stronghold, in the opposite direction, or not Magic class at all. This is a 'balancing' issue which shouldn't be that imperative. I find that a bit exasperating, actually.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted April 13, 2015 05:39 PM |
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Remember that they wanted to create one offensive, one defensive and one balanced hero class. So I am not certain how it would work in those conditions.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2015 05:44 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
Remember that they wanted to create one offensive, one defensive and one balanced hero class. So I am not certain how it would work in those conditions.
If this is true, building off this, perhaps the "offensive" magic class for Stronghold is indeed much more "might" than nearly all other magic heroes. In addition, perhaps any of the Academy might is more "magic" than any other might hero, simply due to spells being wildly different. It still is a 3 and 3 system, but that doesn't mean that they are forced to be pure might or magic, just that the Barbarian magic hero is just a bit more magic than the 18 might classes (except maybe that Academy guy) and vice versa.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 13, 2015 05:49 PM |
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted April 13, 2015 05:51 PM |
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Problem is that despite having 3 different hero types they will all end up with the same build. Always.
There is just no point denying the fact that experimenting with different builds will flatline after only a couple of hours playing a faction.
The only reason people will chose different heroes at all is because of the hero speciality and nothing else since they will probably all have the same starting army/warmachines.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2015 06:20 PM |
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The point about random skill option really made my day! Yesssss
http://mmh7.ubi.com/en/blog/post/view/the-skillwheel-in-mmh7
(Sorry if i am 20 pages too late, haven`t kept up)
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted April 13, 2015 06:22 PM |
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Both of those orcs looks like they they were dressed by their moms against their will.
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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 13, 2015 06:42 PM |
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Well I hate the first two. I hate war cries but love stronghold and prefer might heroes so I'm skrewed.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2015 10:29 PM |
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fuChris said:
Problem is that despite having 3 different hero types they will all end up with the same build. Always.
No, because this is where random skills comes in. If you play with non-random skill option, yes, this is exactley what will happen. Thik about it this way. 60 skills are available, and only half of those will you be able to get. Which ones will it be ... dice will be thrown when you level. So there will be diferent combinations each time you play, altho I admit, because there is seperate wheels for each class, instead of comon one for all classes, the same combinations of skills will pop up more often.
Now with H5 Ultimates. If you go for Ultimate, you are avoiding randomness. Yes. If you wan't to get Ultimate skill, in H5, randomness is not an asset, since you are ACTIVELY WORKING to PLAN BUILD IN ADVANCE. In other words, you are not embracing a random skills, but are figuring out a way to pick what you want. Randomness only serves to screw you out of your victory. It serves to annoy you, when you want that ultimate.
Oh ... what is that? You get Ultimate with no planing to what you pick? By shere luck you pick right skills, and Ultimate pops up? Yea. I belive you. I also belive you won a lottery 100 times in a row. 
But forget Ultimate. H5 worked like this: There were Skills, which had 3 decent perks each. Then IN ADITION, they had 4'th, 5'th and sometimes 6'th HIDDEN perk that was awsome. You realy wanted that. So you went online on celestial haven, downloaded the skill-wheel app, and PLANED what you wanted. You never want 3 of the basic perks. Screw that. You want triple flaming balista, teleport assault, power of speed, warlock's luck etc.
Ofcourse you knew, that skills are random, which means you will not get what you want. This created several options for you to begin with. For instance: If war machine pops up, ima aim for tripple balista, if I get attack, I'm gonna try to gab power of speed ... etc. Also, you knew that playing one faction, you have high chance to get certain skills, so most likely, you never considered aiming for destruction magic with Haven for example. And if it showed up when you were already on your way and level 25 ... what's the point? So, what this did, was ending up with certain "cookie-cutter" builds EACH TIME you played with a given faction. Only thig was, there was never a perfect build, as because of randomness, you weren't offered one skill or the other. This ment that you for example, didn't get "Tripple flaming Balista" at the end, but had to settle only for "tripple balista" ... or "double flaming balista" ... effective, but not perfect. And next time you played, you tried EXACT SAME THING, because PLAYING HAVEN gives you EXACT SAME CHANCE to get those skills.
Here: IN all my games as Necro, I am willing to bet 10k bucks, Dark Magic will show at least once during my game. While I am not prepared to bet 5$ that I'll get Light Magic. That's 5$ lost. There was not random system AT ALL. If it was completley random, NO ONE WOULD GET ULTIMATE EVER, except realy rare and lucky people. There was a soft limit to what part of skill wheel is available to you. Much like in H7, only that this time it's hard limit. If in H5, Dark Magic would show to Haven hero one game out of 100, in H7 it will never show. This is all that fuss is about. And I don't care.
H5 system was not about random skills showing, and you picking what is best for you at that point, then adapting to situation .... It was about trying to get cockie-cutter build, but sometimes being screwed by the randomness ... and it required no real "adapting". It just made you a bit weaker in what you did.
You want a good random system. Try H3. And even THAT could be more random. Prerequisites suck and demand non-random skill tree. That's all there is to it.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 13, 2015 11:00 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:16, 13 Apr 2015.
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Protolisk said:
I actually enjoy when people argue their stances. It's nice to see the other side sometimes. 
I agree, it's essential for progress to understand the point of view of others.
The main idea behind any skill system is to give the player an experience of development. Prerequisites give that sense, it makes it feel like you're setting a brick to stack another on top of it, which in turn becomes the basis for another one and so on (and by bricks I obviously mean abilities). But it also gives a sense of specialization, granted it makes sense that way. So when you turn such a system into a free-pick gotta catch 'em all, you're bound to lose that feeling.
Prerequisites don't have to be accurate in flavor, or in what their name means or what they lead to, they just have to make sense at a gameplay level. To me it seems you're picking on this for no noteworthy reason, missing the real point for what, 4-5 paragraphs? Might as well pick on why there is a skill called "Luck", since luck is anything but skill.
And one more thing, Heroes was never about getting what you wanted, it was about getting what you got and adapting to the situation. It was about setting sail with a rough plan in your mind on the harsh waters of randomness. This was never a competitive game, mind you, where having a certain build was absolutely crucial. Even true competitive games still have systems where prerequisites are present, the example of EvE Online comes to mind, with its ridiculously huge, complex, riddled with prerequisites skill system. So no point in there.
I could say more but I really don't see the point. I've actually experienced the Heroes 7 Skillwheel first hand. In the end, it's still a stylized Heroes 6 system in the form of a wheel, that much is true. If it weren't, then I wouldn't have been warned for saying it during the NDA, so go figure. Oh, and btw, out of all the Shadow Council members that got to play it as well as insiders (that I know of), there isn't a single one to have expressed a positive reaction in regards to the Skillwheel. If that's of no indication to you, then I don't know what is.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted April 13, 2015 11:22 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Both of those orcs looks like they they were dressed by their moms against their will.
This is pure gold! This post has made my evening! 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 13, 2015 11:31 PM |
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Elvin said:
I find it important to have pre-requisites in the skillwheel but in a way that basic abilities promote a certain theme and advanced abilities expand upon it. The more the pre-requisites a wheel has, the more confusing it gets. But two advanced abilities in two of the three basic abilities(depending on faction) would work nicely as long as they promote a sense of direction.
This is the key. Adding too many pre-requisites is a mistake, but having a bunch of them making 'sense' adds a lot to the skill system. A good example of this can be found on H5 destructive perks - Master of Fire lead to Ignite or Fiery Wrath. Master of Ice lead to Cold Death. That's promoting a pretty nice theme
Just don't overdo it!
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 14, 2015 12:12 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
This is the key. Adding too many pre-requisites is a mistake, but having a bunch of them making 'sense' adds a lot to the skill system. A good example of this can be found on H5 destructive perks - Master of Fire lead to Ignite or Fiery Wrath. Master of Ice lead to Cold Death. That's promoting a pretty nice theme
Just don't overdo it!
destruction was kind of a mess at the same time. ice led to one perk and lightning had none (sap magic doesn't even affect lightning). Basically there was only enough perks to specialize in fire which is pretty boring (i want to be a nice mage, dude). otherwise totally agree
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 14, 2015 12:18 AM |
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But that isn't my point. Indeed, they lacked perks for those two, but the idea behind it was solid.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 14, 2015 01:10 AM |
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Yes, and to make things even worse, in some factions there were like 5 or 6 advanced perks in the Fire path, which made it hell to get the one you wanted. So yes, perfect example of both dos and don'ts there!
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What will happen now?
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2015 03:16 AM |
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Stevie said:
The main idea behind any skill system is to give the player an experience of development. Prerequisites give that sense, it makes it feel like you're setting a brick to stack another on top of it, which in turn becomes the basis for another one and so on (and by bricks I obviously mean abilities). But it also gives a sense of specialization, granted it makes sense that way. So when you turn such a system into a free-pick gotta catch 'em all, you're bound to lose that feeling.
I sort of see the reasoning, but, the set up (not the abilities themselves at this point) of H7 still has a build up pattern: novice leads to expert leads to master, and in order to gain in even those ranks, it seems now, you need at least one ability in the previous rank. With that framework, there is a development system. I still feel prerequisites as they were in H5 were largely meaningless: they didn't actually build on each other in a meaningful way, they were just linked. The only ones I agree it did help were in the spell schools, like how the plethora of fire skills actually built off of the Master of Fire basic ability. The problem was outside of mostly Destruction and Summoning schools, and perhaps Warmachines, the rest were just felt linked for the sake of having links. It was the weird ones that made the system, well, weird. Which was for the other 9 of the skills, and the odd balls within those initial 3 skills, that were problematic to me.
Quote:
Prerequisites don't have to be accurate in flavor, or in what their name means or what they lead to, they just have to make sense at a gameplay level. To me it seems you're picking on this for no noteworthy reason, missing the real point for what, 4-5 paragraphs? Might as well pick on why there is a skill called "Luck", since luck is anything but skill.
I wasn't picking on the names: I did use the names to describe exactly what ability I was talking about. Instead, I was picking on how the effects of those abilities that were prereqs for another didn't mesh. The only time I used the name of a skill as a reasoning was when I was saying it's a bad idea to use the name as a reason to link them: instead, you should link the gameplay factors of the ability. I feel they very much should be flavorful to fit, in some ways. Like I said, such as the Remote Control example, the actual effect of Remote Control didn't mesh with Catapult: although one needed the other, they literally had no interaction between the two. They were just linked.
Quote:
And one more thing, Heroes was never about getting what you wanted, it was about getting what you got and adapting to the situation. It was about setting sail with a rough plan in your mind on the harsh waters of randomness. This was never a competitive game, mind you, where having a certain build was absolutely crucial. Even true competitive games still have systems where prerequisites are present, the example of EvE Online comes to mind, with its ridiculously huge, complex, riddled with prerequisites skill system. So no point in there.
Maybe we are on the wrong foot here. I agree: it's about adaptation. But most of my "get what people want" argument was for randomness, not the prereqs in and of themselves. As it stands with randomness of skills, however, I feel that's a factor of randomness that doesn't need to be there, since you can have to adapt to any other part of the game (some of which are random) such as what neutrals guard what mines and so forth. But having randomness in the skill system, to me, is needless haggling with a computer. And even I said at the end the randomness is a moot point, since we both get what we want now.
Quote:
I could say more but I really don't see the point. I've actually experienced the Heroes 7 Skillwheel first hand. In the end, it's still a stylized Heroes 6 system in the form of a wheel, that much is true. If it weren't, then I wouldn't have been warned for saying it during the NDA, so go figure. Oh, and btw, out of all the Shadow Council members that got to play it as well as insiders (that I know of), there isn't a single one to have expressed a positive reaction in regards to the Skillwheel. If that's of no indication to you, then I don't know what is.
I figure the warning about the NDA would have just been revealing any information about the skill system, no matter its likeness with H6, though I don't know.
And if you've been following what I've been saying recently, I didn't say I particularly loved the new system. I like it. I also only like H5, because of the flaws of prereqs and the haggling of randomness, mostly. I felt that the base frame of H7 is a good idea, but the abilities as they are are quite underwhelming and those at least should be changed. I know I didn't say that on the post just after you wrote your "pissed off" statement, although I meant to. I do like the H7 framework because yes, it is a bit simpler, but it lacks direct prereqs, which, for me, is a plus, mostly because with prereqs, you have to take a path to get skills, you have to experiment with "set up" systems and not having less limited options. I thought one of the main reasons you and others disliked the H7 system was how it limited options to heroes due to their 10 skills only. This is my similar problems with prereqs; they too limit options.
But even at the end of my rant, literally the third to last sentence of that post, I said that I'd be okay with prereqs as long as they made sense and indeed build upon themselves. This is the one time prereqs don't so "limit" options, if the options you were going for were actually logically linked. Much like Kiryu, Storm Giant and Alcibiades are saying just above, prereqs can be good, but only if they make sense and actually do build upon themselves in a sensible manner. I don't want ALL abilities to have prereqs, because then you'll get the weird things. If you did make every single ability make sense as a upgrade to it's prerequisites, and actually build off of them, then I'd accept it with open arms. But, whenever people bring up prereqs, and tend to use H5 as an example (since it's the only one that does beyond H6's upgrading system) then I see all the prereqs that don't make sense, and thus I would rather not have a "H5 prereq" system, because of its requirement (heh) to have every ability have a prereq, regardless if that prereq made sense.
Does that make sense?
However, to be frank, the fact that you said you were "pissed off because others liked simplistic skill system" in turn made me a bit angry, as it felt like you were saying that your opinion is the "right" opinion, where the self-righteousness aggravates me more than just differing opinions would. Most of that annoyance from your statement did fuel my ranting there.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted April 14, 2015 04:46 AM |
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Stevie said:
I could say more but I really don't see the point. I've actually experienced the Heroes 7 Skillwheel first hand. In the end, it's still a stylized Heroes 6 system in the form of a wheel, that much is true. If it weren't, then I wouldn't have been warned for saying it during the NDA, so go figure. Oh, and btw, out of all the Shadow Council members that got to play it as well as insiders (that I know of), there isn't a single one to have expressed a positive reaction in regards to the Skillwheel. If that's of no indication to you, then I don't know what is.
This is the interesting part for me. Since, with no disrspect, I can't see the paralers.
H6 "skill" was a free to pick buffie that had only two limits of what you could take. 1-your class (gating off 3rd level skills) and prequests (not more then 1 in a skill) and Most of them didn't have any requests.
You were able to pick 14 spell to pick Cleave on level 15, stacking pasive buffs to take implosion with no skill put into magic. This theoreticaly apsoute freadom, but we ended up where we did, a simple best option pick.
Noww when I look at H7, I still se the H5 skill system, true some people feel the lack of prequests and low impact of randomness when compared to H5, but is this a H6 free to pick approach again with only a new dress? I don't think so. True you had the chance to try it out. All I have are a lot of words from people who mostly speculate and a hanfull of Pictures. But looking at them, I don't see what the problem is. Variaty? you have 36 builds devided into 2 main class grupes and 6 faction's.
Another point I noticed is that people call the skill system limiting. It i smaller then H5's but not that much 13 v 10 skills. With 2 Skills beeing not as developed, but looking at H5 again each class had a skill with very limited abilities.
I think the skill system can work, but I can't deffend it until I have a chacne to try it. But until then I think more generali valid argument must be said against it, other then "No randomnes" something a lot of people rooted for in the days, "no prequest" amd "it is smaller" then H5's since Looking at the original H5's I don't see it as that much smaller.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2015 05:04 AM |
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Dave_Jame said:
This is the interesting part for me. Since, with no disrspect, I can't see the paralers.
...
Noww when I look at H7, I still se the H5 skill system, true some people feel the lack of prequests and low impact of randomness when compared to H5, but is this a H6 free to pick approach again with only a new dress? I don't think so. True you had the chance to try it out. All I have are a lot of words from people who mostly speculate and a hanfull of Pictures. But looking at them, I don't see what the problem is. Variaty? you have 36 builds devided into 2 main class grupes and 6 faction's.
Another point I noticed is that people call the skill system limiting. It i smaller then H5's but not that much 13 v 10 skills. With 2 Skills beeing not as developed, but looking at H5 again each class had a skill with very limited abilities.
I think the skill system can work, but I can't deffend it until I have a chacne to try it. But until then I think more generali valid argument must be said against it, other then "No randomnes" something a lot of people rooted for in the days, "no prequest" amd "it is smaller" then H5's since Looking at the original H5's I don't see it as that much smaller.
I agree. Especially compared to H5 vanilla/HoF's system, I think H7 blows it out of the water. I mean, not only do you have prerequisites in nearly every skill, there was only typically only a single path, which allowed for a total of 4 different ways to build a full skill, typically, being All basic abilities, all the way to the "expert" abilities, and then two ways to get the advanced ability, and one of the other non-required basics. Those that were really strange (like the Demon Lord's way of getting Mana burst back then) allowed for more ways within a skill, but required... specific other skills in order to get. The diversity within a hero was low, though much greater than H3's. H7 is better, so far, than H5's original, though, yes, it is lesser to H5 TotE.
This is to say, the frame work. The abilities shown so far for H7 though are not promising.
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The_Green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 14, 2015 06:15 AM |
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It's definitly limiting and that's what I dislike the most. I think it's gonna end up being a huge downer for certain factions. The hero classes give me the impression they want us to play a certain way. We've seen there main skills hardly differentiate from one another and that every faction will be stronger against one, and more vulnerable against a different one.
So with that in mind, I think back with academy might heroes. Not even the offensive blademage has offense as a main skill, he has a magic school instead  most of the time I play might heroes but I'm going to have to specialize in some kind of magic everytime I play academy  limiting my fun already. I should be open to play how I want.
Now we see stronghold heroes being obsessed with warcries, which I dispise. The one hero without it as a main skill cannot get offense. A stronghold might hero cannot get offense . I wonder if the warmonger will be able to get defense. Apparently passively increasing your army strength is a no-no in h7. Not using warcries could likely mean not playing at stronghold full 'potential' so I won't survive on the hardest difficulties unless I play how they want stronghold to be played.
I just think it's limiting to push us in a certain direction of play style and I don't like it. Wouldn't be surprised if later we get an article saying "if you play faction X and level the ultimates, you'll have an advantage over faction Y, but be vulnerable to faction Z"
They're doing it wrong by not letting us pick (or randomly select) our main skills. If it becomes unbalanced for say stronghold to have offense and defense as a main ability, then they're giving too much power to the skills already.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted April 14, 2015 07:29 AM |
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Dave_Jame said:
This is the interesting part for me. Since, with no disrspect, I can't see the paralers.
H6 "skill" was a free to pick buffie that had only two limits of what you could take. 1-your class (gating off 3rd level skills) and prequests (not more then 1 in a skill) and Most of them didn't have any requests.
You were able to pick 14 spell to pick Cleave on level 15, stacking pasive buffs to take implosion with no skill put into magic. This theoreticaly apsoute freadom, but we ended up where we did, a simple best option pick.
Noww when I look at H7, I still se the H5 skill system, true some people feel the lack of prequests and low impact of randomness when compared to H5, but is this a H6 free to pick approach again with only a new dress? I don't think so. True you had the chance to try it out. All I have are a lot of words from people who mostly speculate and a hanfull of Pictures. But looking at them, I don't see what the problem is. Variaty? you have 36 builds devided into 2 main class grupes and 6 faction's.
Another point I noticed is that people call the skill system limiting. It i smaller then H5's but not that much 13 v 10 skills. With 2 Skills beeing not as developed, but looking at H5 again each class had a skill with very limited abilities.
I think the skill system can work, but I can't deffend it until I have a chacne to try it. But until then I think more generali valid argument must be said against it, other then "No randomnes" something a lot of people rooted for in the days, "no prequest" amd "it is smaller" then H5's since Looking at the original H5's I don't see it as that much smaller.
HERESY! he likes it!! the gods of heroes III and the old will decide your punishment!
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
