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Lich_King
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted January 15, 2004 07:39 PM |
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I disagree... Necromancy is about raising undead units from corpses or slain or defeated. However neither gargoyles, ice demons nor Venom Spawns are undead.
Have a nice day too 
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted January 15, 2004 07:46 PM |
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Quote:
I disagree... Necromancy is about raising undead units from corpses or slain or defeated. However neither gargoyles, ice demons nor Venom Spawns are undead.
Have a nice day too
the technology evolved alot lich, maybe you should keep it up with 
you are right, theoretically, but i think it would give a new breath to all we knew so far, bringing one more strategy element to the game, maybe something that the opponent will not expect, otherwise he would know and will not be any longer a secret weapon or a surprise.
it was a just suggestion
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted January 15, 2004 11:01 PM |
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hmm, i like idea of increasing it, although 1.5-2.5 a day is a bit extreme.. just think, after 1 week you might have 14 faerie drag.. that's too strong. If summoning can ever summon L4s, it should be .75-1 L4s every day or so, so that you might get 5-7 L4s in week. and for L3s, i'd say any L3 at 4-5 per day.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 16, 2004 12:51 AM |
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Have you guys flipped your ROCKER!
Summon 5-7 Level 4's per week! At the very absolutely most, should get no more than 2. THat is normal growth of level 4's per week.
I think summoning works just fine the way it is. Its perfect.
Demonologists is the problem. They need toned down. Summoning 8 Devils per round is seriously nuts. They should summon no more than 4 tops!!! I dont care if they are level 50.
Jinxer
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted January 16, 2004 01:02 AM |
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Quote:
hmm, i like idea of increasing it, although 1.5-2.5 a day is a bit extreme.. just think, after 1 week you might have 14 faerie drag.. that's too strong. If summoning can ever summon L4s, it should be .75-1 L4s every day or so, so that you might get 5-7 L4s in week. and for L3s, i'd say any L3 at 4-5 per day.
it was about week ratio, not daily
1.5-2.5/week
i thought that would be understood from context
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted January 16, 2004 05:57 AM |
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well, summoning has always been a per day thing, so why would it be obvious that you meant "per week" ?
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted January 16, 2004 11:27 AM |
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i expressed it this way to be easier for some to understand the final weekly result, sparing them for a multiplying calculation aand to make a comparison with the weekly creatures growth in towns.
e.g. 0.335/day would give nightmares to some of us, and i don't want to have a confused balcough 
have a nice day
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Dalai
Hired Hero
Equilibris Project Coordinator
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posted January 16, 2004 03:27 PM |
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Actually, I got several replies and none of them answered directly to all the questions. It seems to me I will have to decide myself
There will be menu allowing to choose whom to raise. So don't bother about zombies or mummies - you can continue to raise skeletons.
I have juggled a bit with numbers and came to this version (several examples, not the whole table):
Basic 1 lvl: skeletons - 4,2.
Advanced 5 lvl: skeletons - 11,7; zombies - 8,8.
Expert 10 lvl: skeletons - 23,8; zombies - 17,8; mummies - 5,1.
Master 15 lvl: skeletons - 40,0; zombies - 30,0; mummies - 8,6; ghosts - 6,3; gargoyles - 6,9.
GM 20 lvl: skeletons - 60,4; zombies - 45,3; mummies - 12,9; ghosts - 9,5; gargoyles - 10,4; vampire - 1,0.
Gargoyles are difficult decision. They are not undead.
I think (but yet unsure) we can add 1 not undead creature on master level. 1-st reason - it's master level!
2-nd reason - when necromancer is weak - he/she is probably still playing own troops. And only when the hero gets stronger there can be a possibility to fight using not native troops. So, only strong hero can afford to fight not native troops and raise troops from necromancy at the same time.
Please do not digress from Necromancy to Summoning!
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[url=http://equilibris.celestialheavens.com]Equilibris project[/url]
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted January 16, 2004 06:22 PM |
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Quote:
Please do not digress from Necromancy to Summoning!
yes but you're wasting your time to change necromancy if you have no plans to greatly strengthen summoning!!
as is, summoning is STILL useless.
so, we are giving suggestions on how to change summoning also.
people will still ban necromancy (even if you weaken it, as proposed), unless other 4th magic skills are improved. Summoning MUST be improved. I think you might improve Charm a bit also. Resurrection is probably ok as is.
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted January 16, 2004 07:12 PM |
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Quote:
Resurrection is probably ok as is.
yes.
doomed to be disabled for eternity
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Dalai
Hired Hero
Equilibris Project Coordinator
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posted January 16, 2004 08:53 PM |
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Blue Camel, you make the same mistake as Jinxer does. Necromancy has not be balanced with Summoning, or Sorcery, or Resurrection. It has to be balanced with NOT having Necromancy.
As it was in original - having Necromancy was clearly always better then not having. If we make it raise only 1 skeleton in any case - not having necromancy will be clearly better than having. We are now looking for "Golden Middle".
For possibility to use Necroimancy you pay with other lost opportunities. I described it in my yesterday post - please, read it once more.
You see? It is not connected with summoning, charm or anything.
Good example, imho, is sorcery. You choose - higher level spells or more efficient low level spells.
I played "One hot minute" and one of my heroes was level 10 wizard. He was unlucky - had chaos spells and was always offered order skills. And I had to choose sorcery. When I met opponent, I was quite confident in myself, when my Magic Arrow killed some 6 evel eyes But real fun started when he founf Lightning.
So, though I usually prefer higher level spells, I never regret about levelups on sorcery. That is the good example of balanced skill. Again, no connection to summoning or whatever.
Ok, i see, to have some replies on Necromancy I should post smth. on Summoning
Let me make some calculations. Besause you think like "Level 12 hero should summon ....". And I think "And then he takes couple skills in life and get the druid's chain - and the balance is gone forever".
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[url=http://equilibris.celestialheavens.com]Equilibris project[/url]
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted January 17, 2004 01:58 AM |
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well ok, i admit you're quite correct, but right now it would REALLY suck to hafto take a level in summoning instead of a level in one of the other nature magic skills. summoning is really weak. even if you're a summoner and have druid's chain, it still is very weak :-\
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 17, 2004 06:01 PM |
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I am all for balancing.. but just trying to be realistic here.
I think you are working way to hard to balance a part of game that will still be banned in 70%+ of the games played online.
Dalai keeps saying that you will sacrifice other death levels if you take time building necromancy. But who needs GM Death magic when you have a Horde of Vampires lol. Who needs anything else when you have a horde of Vampires =P
I recently had a scout battle with Laelth in which he had 2 Vampires against my 3 Lords and I had a ton of level 1's and some level 2's and he couldnt be touched. That was with only 2 Vamps. So when playing agaisnt someone who is death and they get normally 25 vamps from town for example, that is devistating enough, but if you add 1 from every battle. They could end up with 5-7 more a week or more. People just simply wont play with necromancy, as long as Vamps are an option. And most of times Hordes of Ghosts are to much also.
I realize my opinions dont hold much water now a days, but just hate to see so much time spent on something that prolly still wont be used anyways. Much more important things needs attention IMO
Jinxer
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balcough_dra...
Supreme Hero
unlucky? i want to pump you up
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posted January 17, 2004 06:38 PM |
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jinxer you can only get vamps after level 20
its the ghosts that are the problem
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slayer
whos your daddy and what does he do?
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted January 17, 2004 06:48 PM |
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yes, ghosts are quite good.. aging is an awesome specialty (it is a L3 spell, now) and they have good movement also, so they don't slow down the main army.
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balcough_dra...
Supreme Hero
unlucky? i want to pump you up
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posted January 17, 2004 08:37 PM |
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plus they have pretty high defense good for cover and taking hits with a good tact they are great when over 80 or so
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slayer
whos your daddy and what does he do?
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted January 17, 2004 10:01 PM |
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neither vamps nor ghosts are unbeatable , even in huge amount. i exprerienced a battle where the opponent lost around 120 vampsand almost 20 bonies in front of a weaker army (as exp points).
about the ghosts 400 ghosts werent able to kill 3 heroes gm combat that only cast low level spells, isaw many of this situation.
so, many Vamps as the ultimate weapon, is only a myth.
besides, if you are able to raise vamps in one game, be sure the opponent won't have only level 3-4 heroes and nothing else ,allowing you to rule with 5-6 vamps that you got to raised until meeting. think about.
necromancy is a nice game feature that could bring extra fun like , lately, the diplo thing.
@ jinxer
in most of the cases hand of death is much more devastatng than 40 vamps, for instance.
i'm totally for adjusting this skill and enable it in all the maps.
have a nice day
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted January 17, 2004 10:15 PM |
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even after adjusting, i think should be enabled only in some maps.. maps full of creatures, it might still dominate
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balcough_dra...
Supreme Hero
unlucky? i want to pump you up
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posted January 18, 2004 02:04 AM |
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yea vamps got toned down pretty much
they are not beasts like before
work on the demonos
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slayer
whos your daddy and what does he do?
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 18, 2004 05:51 AM |
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So any map that Level 30 heroes are possible it wouldnt be wise to allow GM Necro then... LIke Imperial Prison.
But yes no vamps until level 20 sounds perfect. Good job.
Jinxer
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