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valkyrica
Supreme Hero
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posted September 18, 2003 07:57 PM |
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their speed is now 30 zud
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I'm Guybrush Threepwood, mighty pirate 
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Lost
Tavern Dweller
Equilibris Leading programmer
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posted September 18, 2003 08:09 PM |
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Here comes second part
Quote:
I am appreciative that they are attempting to better then game. But from the sounds of it. The Programs have never played H4 Multi.
I have misinterpreted term "transfer" with resource transfer to an ally. I agree than playing MP on 56K modem is masochism. We'll try to fix this, but it is quite difficult.
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the single combat hero (be it a barbarian or archer) with addition of immortallity potions is another huge imbalance in the game, immo potions should default to be much more expensive (2 or 3K minimum)
Dispell, steal or cancel would be the best against barbs&immortality. Immortality potions are not only for barbs, they help mages too. And for Order&Death (which can't hire archer or barb), such prices are too high.
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and the archery and melee skills need to be toned down severly forcing players to use mainly creatures and not heroes for battling.
If so, barbs would be thrown down. They can't battle with creatures against magic, because skillful use of Tactics skill, curses and mind spells makes barb's army suck.
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maybe , change crusader class, let's say for instance, if you want to get that "indestructable" bonus of maximum morale , to have a penalty such as decreasing speed by 2-4, nice would be random number within this range.
Speed do not make much sense when moral applied.
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raise vampires dispeled ? nonsense
Would be fixed if possible.
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increase the building requirements for death castle as well and for blackies they should require mage guild level 3 + death spells building, they're too powerful and you get 1 when you build them as you get with any other level 4 and it's not balanced, either make that requirement or make them appear 3 days after you build, the way mantises appear.
Sorry, but we can't change building requirements yet.
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another thing - increase movement does not work at all, so that would be very good thing to fix (i originaly had increase movement events on either side of bridge on utb to help player get across faster, but they didnt work so had to settle w/stables )
also you need to fix decrease morale/luck. INCREASE morale/luck works, but not decrease.
It is not possible yet to fix this. After some further research into scripting system, maybe.
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I ment remove raising vampires.20 lvl changes nothing
We considered this problem very closely. 20 lvl changes all in MP games. In SP game, it changes nothing.
As for me personally, I like removing raising vampires (ghosts on GM), but team decided to compromize for a SP-fans.
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Maybe they could fix something about nagas too...lets say 2 attacks or something....people always pick genies... or indrease speed /hp
You have to consider that naga is not only genie's rival, but also neutral monster. Do you like to battle neutral nagas with your barb if they would have their speed increased further or have double attack ability?
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The bug with dragon shield being minor fixed
OK. We'll consider it.
Also since 3.1 NWC-made bug with dragon shield (fire resistanse spell dispelled when creature moves) is fixed.
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zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
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posted September 18, 2003 08:30 PM |
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ldeath shield
has it been fixed to give life ward?
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Winner or Whiner?
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted September 18, 2003 08:33 PM |
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Quote:
maybe , change crusader class, let's say for instance, if you want to get that "indestructable" bonus of maximum morale , to have a penalty such as decreasing speed by 2-4, nice would be random number within this range.
Speed do not make much sense when moral applied.
not much, but VERY much. I could review now 5-6 games lost, because of the speed, and both heroes getting morale.
You should consider it that as being more important that it seems.I guess i'm not the only one here who supports that point , and the issue concerning the crusader class.
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valkyrica
Supreme Hero
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posted September 18, 2003 08:58 PM |
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that bug you mention is for all shields which give a ward and for fizbin of misfortune.
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I'm Guybrush Threepwood, mighty pirate
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted September 19, 2003 12:39 AM |
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we appreciate you listening to our ideas about the mod.
However, I dont think you should argue with the best players in H4 toh about what is strong or is not strong in the game of H4 
not being mean, just saying..
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Maximus
Famous Hero
Bronzed God
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posted September 19, 2003 01:31 AM |
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VESUVIUS:actually I think they probably dont have the ability to fix the transfers, that is a totally different side of the code/programming; they would have to rewrite everything from scratch. What they are able to do, is to MODIFY the gameplay code, and that is what they are doing.
yup, this is correct. only way to change transfer speed i think is to hav access to the "source code" and compression compliers used. unfortunatly, moding h4 may make transfers even longer 
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Frost. Sometimes it makes the blade stick !
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted September 19, 2003 11:33 AM |
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Quote:
my mistake.I sayed remove necromancy.but I ment remove raising vampires.20 lvl changes nothing
and very good ideas thunder
Weren't my ideas, I just "translated" them from the Mod's Readme, which means that they are in the game (3.2) already.
Camel, if they'd pick every suggestion from this thread I bet balance purposes would be totally thwarted. Players should consider first what is already been changed and suggest balancing things then. And it doesn't help at all to have contradicting suggestions, like those mentioned about Black Dragons. I think it would be best to make a list of the things which should be changed, taking into the consideration changes already made, and then circled around the players for addition and/or approvals.
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zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
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posted September 19, 2003 01:58 PM |
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Quote:
the single combat hero (be it a barbarian or archer) with addition of immortallity potions is another huge imbalance in the game, immo potions should default to be much more expensive (2 or 3K minimum)
Dispell, steal or cancel would be the best against barbs&immortality. Immortality potions are not only for barbs, they help mages too. And for Order&Death (which can't hire archer or barb), such prices are too high.
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and the archery and melee skills need to be toned down severly forcing players to use mainly creatures and not heroes for battling.
If so, barbs would be thrown down. They can't battle with creatures against magic, because skillful use of Tactics skill, curses and mind spells makes barb's army suck.
I think this is the case with any army's creatures. but I am not talking about creatures here. with the melee skill as it is a relativily low lvl barbarian (all you need is gm melee and gm combat) can buy several immo potions and go clear a dragon utopia. To me hero strength is a huge imbalance in the game.
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Winner or Whiner?
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Arangar
Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
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posted September 19, 2003 02:47 PM |
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I agree with zud
Arangar
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Arangar
Norwegian viking
ranger of the north
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted September 20, 2003 02:26 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
can buy several immo potions and go clear a dragon utopia
..so what?
maybe is a bit strong..but if was weaker..it would suck.
so its either in or out
i dont follow... if was a little weaker it would just be... better
cuz then you couldnt clear topia with just a not-even-that-high-level hero
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted September 20, 2003 04:38 AM |
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Bottom line you shouldnt beable to clear any average size battle or better with 1 or 2 heroes only. 3do kionda had a brain fade there. But as we all know. Jinxer dont know anything so go figure.
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted September 20, 2003 08:36 AM |
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Quote:
Bottom line you shouldnt beable to clear any average size battle or better with 1 or 2 heroes only. 3do kionda had a brain fade there. But as we all know. Jinxer dont know anything so go figure.
....
P.S. jinxer, you should be grateful, i didn't say a word
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted September 20, 2003 08:09 PM |
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Pasted in the creature changes from the ChangeLog.
It seems to be that some considerable effort has been gone into trying to make Imps's special worthless, giving almost every spellcaster creature two additional spellpoints so they can still cast their spells even if they've been mana drained.
=== Chaos ===
Orc: Dmg 2-3 (old value /was/ 1-3 )
Minotaur: Attack 19 (was 16), Defence 18 (was 15), Weekly Growth 7 (was 6)
Nightmare: Spell Points 8 (was 6)
Hydra: Move 28 (was 22).
Orc should probably have been changed to 1-4 instead of 1-3 since Chaos creatures are supposed to have damage ranges that vary greatly.
Hydra's speed increase probably makes them a more viable choice.
=== Death ===
Skeleton: Hit Points 10 (was 8)
Vampires: Attack 27 (was 30), Defence 27 (was 30), Move 30 (was 38), Experience 365 (was 205).
Venom spawn: Move 26 (was 18)
Devil: Hit Points 240 (was 210), Dmg 38-50 (was 34-50)
What hasn't been mentioned much here is the Experience increase of the Vampires. What this means is that GM Necromancy will generate fewer Vampires since the XP value of them has increased. Before 6 Ghosts = 1 Vampire. Now 11 Ghosts = 1 Vampire. GM Necromancy = 200 XP + 10% per level. To get 2 Vampires, you need 730 XP which translates to a level 27 Hero. To get 3 Vampires you need 1095 XP which translates to level 45. Overall, my estimate is that GM Necromancy now is a big downgrade, the Vampire is simply not worth 365 XP. You'd likely be much better of breeding Ghosts at Master Necromancy.
The effects of increasing XP value of Vampires is also that they give a too large XP reward for killing them though this will even out between players.
Overall, I'd say with the increased speed of Venom Spawn and decreased stats of vampires who would want to build for Vampires any more?
I guess only some testing will tell but with these new stats I'd say Venom Spawns seems to be the way to go.
=== Life ===
Ballista: Move 16 (was 8)
Crusader: Hit Points 75 (was 65), Move 22 (was 18), Weekly Growth 6 (was 5)
Archangel: Spell Points 22 (was 20)
I don't think Ballista should have been made twice as fast, though a slight speed increase would have been in order. They had superior stats for a ranged level 2 in many ways and also the advantage of being a machine. While 16 is still slow they are now quite usable on the map if you build a stables in your town.
Crusaders also became more powerful. They and monks were overall even before. Now I'd say you must require a shooter badly to pick the monk. With the increased speed of the Ballista most players will go Ballista plus Crusaders.
=== Might ===
Cyclops: Attack 26 (was 30), Shots 7 (was 8)
Ogre mage: Attack 24 (was 18), Defence 22 (was 16), Move 24 (was 18), Speed 5 (was 4), Mana 5 (was 6)
With all the improvements to the Ogres (more spells are in addition to the above) I doubt the Cyclopses are a viable option any more. The stats of the Ogres are now nearly the same as for the Cyclopses and you get twice as many Ogres as Cyclopses. The only reason to pick Cyclopses is that they are Might's only ranged creatures.
A move increase and more spells would have been sufficient. With 33% Attack increase and 37.5% Defence increase the Ogres are a lot more powerful than the Cyclopses.
=== Nature ===
Satyr: Spell Points 8 (was 6)
Unicorn: Hit Points 85 (was 80) ============
Waspwort: Move 12 (was 8)
Phoenix: Spell Points 14 (was 12)
I don't think the creatures who got more spellpoints should have got them, otherwise it looks ok.
=== Order ===
Dwarf: Attack 10 (was 11), Defence 13 (was 11)
Gold golem: Dmg 9-13 (was 8-12)
Mage: Spell Points 18 (was 16)
Genie: Move 25 (was 30), Spell Power 38 (was 45), Weekly Growth 5 (was 6)
Titan: Move 30 (was 22).
Hmmm... overall I'd say that with Genies much less powerful Order is likely to be in trouble. The Titans have become easier to build and are faster but this does probably not compensate Order enough.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted September 21, 2003 09:03 AM |
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i think you are quick to be exaggerative (if that's a word) djive. i mean yes venom spawn being a lot better means you'll probably get them at least some of the times, but even so vamps bloodsucking is still quite powrful.
and yes ogre magi are a lot better but even so... area affect by cyclops is devestating.. is ridiculous for you to say that no one will ever get cylcops.
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Prince_Legolas
Bad-mannered
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posted September 22, 2003 11:52 AM |
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Here is one thing i think not mentioned before.If heroes go defending in castle in mostly ways it is become wortless to attack high lvl heroes in castle with creatures because offence and defence raised above 100 if hero staying on tower and they become not killable.So the point is for now battles happen on open battlefield and i think everyone trying to avoid battle in castle for that reason with towers. One hero who staying on the tower can kill whole enemy army and he doesnt need much creatures at all.So i think maybe it is good to make towers shoot arrows like in heroes 3 and other latest versions and add no bonuses to attack and defence .
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MSG-1-1
Known Hero
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posted September 22, 2003 12:53 PM |
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:S
When is this mod coming..and how it affects toh?
And is there a page (either in russian or english, where u can get informatino about the mod
And i heard that when u install it ur old heroes deleted?
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Dalai
Hired Hero
Equilibris Project Coordinator
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posted September 23, 2003 08:21 AM |
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Hello to all. I am Equilibris Project Coordinator, and I can give some answers or offer ideas for your consideration. English is not my native, so if there are some mistakes, don't lose patience, please.
2 Djive
Quote:
It seems to be that some considerable effort has been gone into trying to make Imps's special worthless, giving almost every spellcaster creature two additional spellpoints so they can still cast their spells even if they've been mana drained.
I would rather say the effort has been made to make imp's ability a chance, not a gift.
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Orc should probably have been changed to 1-4 instead of 1-3 since Chaos creatures are supposed to have damage ranges that vary greatly.
We took into account the same ideas and decided that orc are very much handicapped with short range ability, so we decided to help them from curse spell.
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Hydra's speed increase probably makes them a more viable choice.
I hope so
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You'd likely be much better of breeding Ghosts at Master Necromancy.
And even better - breeding ghosts on Grandmaster Necromancy. Until you reach level 20.
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BTW, what do you all think of leaving ghosts on GMN without possibility to raise Vampires?
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Overall, I'd say with the increased speed of Venom Spawn and decreased stats of vampires who would want to build for Vampires any more?
I guess only some testing will tell but with these new stats I'd say Venom Spawns seems to be the way to go.
You are absolutely correct about "testing will show".
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I don't think Ballista should have been made twice as fast
And it is not. As I mentioned on CH, Movement numbers mentioned in txt are the numbers you can see in fort/citadel/castle when hiring creatures. When the creature is hired and standing on the certain ground, movement will be different (for all creatures, not only for changed in mod). It will also depend on pathfinding skill of the heroes in army.
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Crusaders also became more powerful. They and monks were overall even before. Now I'd say you must require a shooter badly to pick the monk. With the increased speed of the Ballista most players will go Ballista plus Crusaders.
Testing will show. Personally I do not think you are right at this point.
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With all the improvements to the Ogres (more spells are in addition to the above) I doubt the Cyclopses are a viable option any more.
...
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Hmmm... overall I'd say that with Genies much less powerful Order is likely to be in trouble. The Titans have become easier to build and are faster but this does probably not compensate Order enough.
The same answer. Testing will show.
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MSG-1-1
Check out the links in my signature.
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Jinxer
Quote:
I am appreciative that they are attempting to better then game. But from the sounds of it. The Programs have never played H4 Multi.
3do already hurt the game in a HUGE way by not considering the Multi aspect and if these programmers are blindly changing things based on how the game plays in Single player...then it is not helping the H4 Multi aspect one bit.
Why do you think we have never played Multi? Just because Lost misinterpreted the term transfer bug?
I can give at least several reasons for that.
1. AFAIR he has warned about his poor English. Can you imagine some things sound different in oter languages?
2. Lost may be working and playing HoMM, for example, in some ISP with 20 MBps channel and have no idea of slow transfers.
3. Lost may be playing HoMM in some Heroes-specialized game-club with ethernet connection between PCs.
Your tone is far from friendly, and this threatens constructive communication
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All
OK, now I have to say, that all we think about is Multi.
Someone offered Lost not to argue with best TOH players. He was not arguing, he was explaining the ideas behind our decisions.
We all appreciate the experience of people here, and this is the reason we are here discussing our ideas. Otherwise we wouldn't waste our time.
So if you think something is done not right, or there is better way - we are ready to listen. But if you say something like "I am emperor on TOH, and Nagas should have strike and return, strike twice, teleport and life drain ability" - obviously this will not be done.
So far the replies we get are mostly friendly and inspiring. I think we have done more right things, than wrong. The ideas from our readme, offered by Thunder, were very much welcome.
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[url=http://equilibris.celestialheavens.com]Equilibris project[/url]
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted September 23, 2003 07:21 PM |
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Quote:
You'd likely be much better of breeding Ghosts at Master Necromancy.
And even better - breeding ghosts on Grandmaster Necromancy. Until you reach level 20.
Hmmm... your Ghost stack would be much more dangerous at that point than your Vampire stack could hope to be within forseeable future. At 2-4 new vampires per Combat the vampires will quickly become more powerful than the Ghosts, but if you just get 1-2 Vampires then it's likely better to keep getting Ghosts.
I'd prefer breeding Ghosts. Then you will at least see some effect of levelling in that you can animate more and more Ghosts. The Vampire number will remain the same for many many levels.
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I don't think Ballista should have been made twice as fast
And it is not. As I mentioned on CH, Movement numbers mentioned in txt are the numbers you can see in fort/citadel/castle when hiring creatures. When the creature is hired and standing on the certain ground, movement will be different (for all creatures, not only for changed in mod). It will also depend on pathfinding skill of the heroes in army.
I referred to the basic movement number having been doubled from 8 to 16. This does mean double movement regardless of most of the movement modifiers you mentioned. (However bonuses from Stables, Trough and Rally Flags would make it less than double since they have an additive effect on your base movement number, rather than affectiving the cost of moving or the movement allowance(both of which has a multiplicative effect on the movement).
Standing on certain ground will not change movement allowance. However, when moving the cost for the transition will cost different amount of Movement points, but this cost is not depending on the creature's base movement score so creature could move twice as long.)
Take these two examples.
Ballista has base map movement of 6, then they would have base movement 12 after the change.
Lets's say they move over swamp with cost 2 tiles per tile travelled.
Before they could move 3 tiles (6 * 1 (normal movement) / 2 (tile cost) = 3 )
After they can move 6 tiles (12 * 1 (normal movement) / 2 (tile cost) = 6).
Say they instead accompanied by Hero with GM Pathfinding and movement artifacts with give an additional 50% movement. Tile cost is now 1, and their movement allowance is doubled (+50% from GM Pathfinding and +50% from movement artifacts).
So in case 1, they move 6 * 2 (double movement) / 1 (tile cost) = 12 tiles over swamp.
Afterwards, they move 12 * 2 (double movement) / 1 (tile cost) = 24 tiles over swamp.
In both these cases the actual movement are doubled.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted September 25, 2003 02:17 AM |
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hey, i had idea...
this is probably just a wish for h5, but if possible, i think something like this would be cool for a h4mod...
i think most players agree potions of imm is broken feature of h4. i just had idea of how to remove potions of imm from game but have it so that heroes dont die instantly then. i propose we bring back the "tent" idea from heroes ONE (although of course tents in h1 was just for show). heroes start off combat in tents which has certain number of hp (perhaps number of hp of tent changes for hero level... i.e. level 1 hero only gets 150 hp tent while level 10 hero gets 1000 hp tent). hero cannot attack with melee while in tent, and he can only shoot arrows and cast spells within moderate radius around tent. so basically it will protect hero but if he actually wants to attack enemy he has to get out of tent, thus leaving protection. this removal of potions of imm will stop the barby/archer killing whole map by himself, but wont make heroes die in 2 seconds either. also i think you should make it so heroes can cast potion of healing on OTHER heroes not just selves. this way if hero gets out of tent, potion of healing can still serve as semi-imm potion, so that hero doesnt die instantly. of course you will still have GM combat and GM resis, so hero can still be pretty daym hard to kill.
i just think this would be cool
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