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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2012 02:22 PM |
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The point was, that Dungeon is best town because it's most FLEXIBLE and you will therefore have a play for basically EVERY set-up (against EVERY town). The point was NOT that Dungeon is best in a SPECIFIC set-up against a SPECIFIC town. Try to beat Dungeon on a map with Outside level 7 dwelling, would be the same silly kind of arguing. The game isn't just about playing a certain 2-player template with a certain setting and difficulty level, which is what you seem to forget regularly.
If you play maps on difficulty levels that allow building Blacksmith, Barracks, MG I, Monastery, Portal of Glory, Citadel and Castle in Week 1 (and probably a couple of heroes as well to get a viable creeping force out of those Pikemen and Archers) AND hire the 3 Angels out in week 2 AND reach your opponent in the same week, it's of course your own fault to waste your time with that kind of crap. Settings that completely ignore the economic side of the game and allow going the most expensive way without repercussions are robbing the game of one dimension.
Of course, even on those maps you are still not defenseless. You may pick a Warlock, knowing whast is coming, and blast the 3 Angels to kingdom come. You may petrify them with Medusas as well, and so on.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 29, 2012 03:01 PM |
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thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted October 29, 2012 03:32 PM |
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The scenario which I have recently posted about causing rampart problems applies to dungeon too, though slightly less. For instance, are you able to take utopia in week three without much losses? U cannot bless cure shield bloodlust your drags.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2012 03:51 PM |
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Quote:
Sorry I don't follow you, as usual.
True.
Quote:
I will never play a game where I can't reach my opponent first week, if I want to slay mobs, I play solo.
Didn't you say that? There is no way to beat Dungeon on a map where you can fight it out in week 1, since there no way to stop a Warlock with a Throng of Trogs in week 1.
But that's not the point.
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The point is, that Heroes 3 isn't a "balanced game". Strengths and Weaknesses of factions depend. You can make points for and against everyone - but a t simply depends on the situation. For example, Conflux is generally good, for a number of reasons, but if they cannot press their initial advantage home, they may get problems later, because their mid-level troops don't cut it. As opposed to that Necro is extremely slow in the beginning and depends on the troops they face - if they don't live and if the game is short, they won't have many Skeletons and are at a disadvantage, but no one will claim, that they won't win in the end, if the map just takes enough time.
Now, the thread asks for best town, not for best town under any specific situation, difficulty level, map size, internet MP, Hot seat, SP, RMG, premade map, richness or whatever, but GENERALLY, which means ... well, generally; under each, any and every situation.
It IS true, of course, that Dungeon has a strict building order and needs more builds, than for example, Castle or Stronghold to get to their level 7. It is also true that Dungeon creatures have a fairly low damage output, that comes quite expensive at that. But if THAT decides about whether a town will win a map or lose, than the map itself (and the set-up) is just in favor of those (just as a longer maps with lots of level 1 living guarding stacks would be in favor of Necropolis).
Since the ability to build that way is connected with initial difficulty (decides starting money/res and amount of immediately hirable Heroes) and general richness of the map (decides whether the investment into a ton of hero pays and you can grab enough stuff to never look back), your favorite playing situation is generally imbalanced and tilted in one direction, since there is basically only one way to go. To build Castle and Portal of Glory in week one, to have 3 angels in week 2 you need a hell of a lot of money - and the Village Hall isn't giving you much, so you need a low difficulty and/or a very rich map.
In reality, however, you can always play with OTHER settings and OTHER difficulties, and they are all viable as well, even though you may not want to play them.
The game, however, is more than what you want or don't want to play, and even MP play is more than playing on specific map settings.
It may be true that you prefer playing maps, where the strict building order of Dungeon is a decisive disadvantage, that will make you lose - but that is just a small part of every map possible. I would say, you can just as well play a map where you can reach opponent's town on day 5, and in that case the Warlocks spell power and Trog Throng will be the decisive advantage.
It's also not true to say that you don't have time in MP. It depends on map size and setup, on terrain and guarding stacks, on what KIND of map it is, how much time you have, and it makes no sense to generalize from situations that allow "attacking opponent with 3 Angels in week 2".
The Dungeon is a good choice, no matter what, since you have a ton of options to hold your own. Of course, depending on what you play (against) and what situation you are in, you have to pick the right one. If simply building as many and as high creature dwellings as soon as possible isn't what will make you win a game - why do it at all?
I also find it quite silly that your ample practise within a certain "window" or "facet" of the fame is PRACTISE for you, while every other window and facet is THEORY.
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Ask yourself the following question:
If you wouldn't know beforehand what kind of map you'd play (opponent(s)) as well), size, dif level, richness, general setup... what town would you pick?
I don't think Dungeon has much competetion there - the only serious alternative would seem to be the Conflux, and the Conflux is arguably playing in a different sort of league with their Magic heroes starting with a magic school and their fast low level troops, combined with the ruling power of Firebirds, and the whole faction crafted with a certain purpose in mind.
In my opinion THAT is, what defines "best".
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 29, 2012 04:15 PM |
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You can not define which is best town without sticking to original setup of the game. Any modified templates/custom maps are not relevant to the matter. In regular templates, made by 3DO (not discussing here if they good or not, we know they suck), contact between players are fast, via monoliths and shortcuts. As discussed in other forums, the balance in H3 was made having in mind those setups and eventually maps coming with the game, in which also, players have fast contact.
Now it happens that years ago we played those maps in ToH and dungeon was disadvantaged. If map is poor there are several towns which will lead before dungeon comes in consideration, ie stronghold or fortress. If maps are rich, then several towns will lead also in buildings quantity. Surely Shacka is great, but trogs are very vulnerable to shooters while fortress and stronghold can have very early what they need for this matter.
As for mage guilds, I always considered them as a luxury, if a player manages to get 4th level, it only means his opponent is unprepared or unskilled.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 29, 2012 04:48 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 16:49, 29 Oct 2012.
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On week 1 against Dungeon?
Necro of course...
I will have a lot more skellies than you have trogs...
And on 200% difficulty, Dungeon can be a very poor starting town...trying to find all kind of resources just for level 3 building..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2012 05:08 PM |
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You didn't answer the question, though.
Also, you have to read more carefully what I say. I also think, that if you take a SPECIFIC situation, you will almost always find a town that may be better suited to win in any given specific situation (of course there are exceptions, for example an outside level 7 dwelling).
But, you will have some play to win as well - you will never be outclassed, and if you pick RANDOM settings for everything and pick RANDOM opponents against Dungeon, you will rake a lot of victories, provided you play your strengths well and not waste time on your weaknesses.
There is no town that is always best (or weakest).
But of course that's only my opinion. If you know the specifics of what you will probably have and get, you'll be able to pick the town you want to play with.
We also know that it's virtually impossible to win against an equal opponent by attacking his town (this would be possible only when certain conditions were fulfilled, and those need either a very short or a pretty long game). So it's actually the faster medium ground, things played within 3-4 weeks that are usually not winnable without extra rules (or major blunders and surprises).
The question has to be, though, why THOSE should be the yardstick that you need special rules for?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 29, 2012 05:31 PM |
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I can't answer your question because I always played no rules and random town, no matter the map proposed. For me this was the only way to have unique games and not regret the wasted time. Sometimes the map is against your random pick hence the challenge is greater. And there is where I found the dungeon to require more attention, certainly not very flexible.
And of course, starting hero was also random, and without shakti boy (start with synca and see) everything was not so easy. I still believe Heroes is perfectly balanced (except conflux grail) and I was never afraid of necro. Assuming my opponent does not force me to play some pussy closed map where he has the time to gather thousand skeletons before I reach him.
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Amaterasu
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 29, 2012 09:36 PM |
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Quote:
I can't answer your question because I always played no rules and random town, no matter the map proposed. For me this was the only way to have unique games and not regret the wasted time. Sometimes the map is against your random pick hence the challenge is greater. And there is where I found the dungeon to require more attention, certainly not very flexible.
And of course, starting hero was also random, and without shakti boy (start with synca and see) everything was not so easy. I still believe Heroes is perfectly balanced (except conflux grail) and I was never afraid of necro. Assuming my opponent does not force me to play some pussy closed map where he has the time to gather thousand skeletons before I reach him.
This topic is really firing up. I want to say that i agree with all of your claims. Dungeon is ultimately very strong but definetly not flexible. It is very decent and balanced if you think about the ultimate army, their ranged setup is similar to conflux'es(which is pretty decent i believe) Their melee units have good speed. I do not quite like harpies, but the town is very strong. I dont see why people call it a rush town just because a hero starts with 90 troglodites. If you play dungeon you will need alot of materials(its very expensive even early on), with much less money you can easily rush to cliff nest with stronghold(you can get it very fast)their heroes also start with ridiculous attack, like crag hack etc. So i don't think its a very good town(btw salamander this part was not for you just wanted to get it all out i hope you don't mind).
I think i can accept that conflux is slightly stronger than other towns. In my opinion their only below average unit is energy elemental, also magma is a bit sloppy but their all other units are decent and the 2 i mentioned can be used for tanking purposes.
I guess they are ultimately a bit stronger because their lvl 7 unit has a growth of 4/week. The building itself is not very expensive either. Other than that, all their troops have some sort of magic immunity(rarely a handicap) and can also cast elemental defences(waste of turn most of the time).
About most flexible town. Although its not much of a rush, i think castle is a very flexible town if not the most,They are okay mid game and very good late game. Their heroes are pretty decent, they also make okay hybrid heroes.
You also mentioned Rampart rangers being very good, I would like to add that I think they are the exact opposite of battle mages, and second best hybrid hero class in the game.
i would say
Battle mage can essentially be created magic%60/might%40
Rangers can essentially be created Magic%40/might%60.
I also want to say that i agree with the list of assets about rampart creatures you listed in that earlier post.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2012 09:45 PM |
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That the game would be perfectly balanced is certainly an opinion you have exclusively. For example, I think it makes a lot of difference when playing the Fortress, whether you get a Beastmaster or a Witch (or if you get a Witch, whether you can hire an additional Beastmaster).
I also think, that generally magic heroes are at a disadvantage in the game - one reason being completely imbalanced might hero specials, another being absolutely insufficient magic skills, another being OP starting forces, and so on.
Sure, if you play EVERYTHING random, things will certainly even out in the long run, that's why I absolutely agree with you on the general spirit in which the game should be played or at least viewed. Of course, if you do that, the Dungeon hero selection is arguably the best of any town, mainly because most of the magic heroes are well playable AND quite dangerous; Stronghold is on par, mainly because the Magic heroes are well playable as well and suited for the town, with useful skills. If you assume a random starting hero and another town hero in Tavern, there are 120 different combinations possible. With 2 "bad" Overlords and 3 "bad" Warlocks, SIX out of those - 5% - are really sucky.
Stronghold is better there. Really sucky is probably only the Oris/Shiva combination, but still. Even the sucky Warlocks are usefull as secondaries. Of course Wisdom isn't such a great skill to start with in a Stronghold town, so that brings it somewhat to the same level.
Of course the Conflux heroes are something special here.
But you are right. Dungeon needs special attention, because there is no really clearcut path hewn into stone. With the other towns it more or less depends on what is necessary on the particular map to get rolling, and after that, it's a wide road. With Dungeon you have unattractive basic units and upgrades that don't help much. Harpy Hags would be good, if they did more damage (in which case you had one less sucky hero), but they do not enough damage. Where Orrin is pretty good, Lorelei is pretty bad. Admittedly, Scouting seems like a logical skill for a Harpy specialist, still Tactics would make her a different class of hero.
Consider Castle. Let's say money is short, and you start with 2 "normal" heroes, getting Archers and Pikemen, building Archer Tower (if nexessary), and grading it up so you have Marksmen, will give you a lot of "safe" (unretaliated) damage. Those Marksmen do the same damage HALF-RANGE than Harpy Hags do regularly, and while the Hags have no retaliation and strike return, a dozen of them won't get you far.
So there is no creature dwelling or upgrade you can build for Dungeon that will solve your immediate problems - you already HAVE your force, when you have two heroes, and you have to decide whether you need an extra in creatures or whether to build on Magic and special buildings right away.
On the other hand - a lot depends. Say, there is a level 2 outside dwelling - and suddenly you can get really many Harpy Hags, which may lead to a somewhat different strategy.
That's what I like with Dungeon (and Inferno). You can pull so many interesting things off, and smallish things can turn the whole game around. Compared to that the 3 good towns are pretty boring (which is not to say they are not "good". It's just like they follow the same routine, while the other 6 towns are different.
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Worst town is - for me - Tower. A lot of bad heroes, very expensive to build, a sucky basic level 7, units have no speed; difficult to hold one's own. Difficult assessment. Flyers are too weak, shooters would be great if Giants could shoot.
All in all I've always felt least comfortable with Tower.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 29, 2012 09:53 PM |
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Players dislike tower and inferno mainly because native terrain. Taking for example a 40x40 area on grass you will find much more treasures, crypts and open connections than when on lava or snow. Tower is very powerful if fully build, the problem is surviving until that moment.
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Amaterasu
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 29, 2012 09:59 PM |
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Quote:
That the game would be perfectly balanced is certainly an opinion you have exclusively. For example, I think it makes a lot of difference when playing the Fortress, whether you get a Beastmaster or a Witch (or if you get a Witch, whether you can hire an additional Beastmaster).
I also think, that generally magic heroes are at a disadvantage in the game - one reason being completely imbalanced might hero specials, another being absolutely insufficient magic skills, another being OP starting forces, and so on.
Sure, if you play EVERYTHING random, things will certainly even out in the long run, that's why I absolutely agree with you on the general spirit in which the game should be played or at least viewed. Of course, if you do that, the Dungeon hero selection is arguably the best of any town, mainly because most of the magic heroes are well playable AND quite dangerous; Stronghold is on par, mainly because the Magic heroes are well playable as well and suited for the town, with useful skills. If you assume a random starting hero and another town hero in Tavern, there are 120 different combinations possible. With 2 "bad" Overlords and 3 "bad" Warlocks, SIX out of those - 5% - are really sucky.
Stronghold is better there. Really sucky is probably only the Oris/Shiva combination, but still. Even the sucky Warlocks are usefull as secondaries. Of course Wisdom isn't such a great skill to start with in a Stronghold town, so that brings it somewhat to the same level.
Of course the Conflux heroes are something special here.
But you are right. Dungeon needs special attention, because there is no really clearcut path hewn into stone. With the other towns it more or less depends on what is necessary on the particular map to get rolling, and after that, it's a wide road. With Dungeon you have unattractive basic units and upgrades that don't help much. Harpy Hags would be good, if they did more damage (in which case you had one less sucky hero), but they do not enough damage. Where Orrin is pretty good, Lorelei is pretty bad. Admittedly, Scouting seems like a logical skill for a Harpy specialist, still Tactics would make her a different class of hero.
Consider Castle. Let's say money is short, and you start with 2 "normal" heroes, getting Archers and Pikemen, building Archer Tower (if nexessary), and grading it up so you have Marksmen, will give you a lot of "safe" (unretaliated) damage. Those Marksmen do the same damage HALF-RANGE than Harpy Hags do regularly, and while the Hags have no retaliation and strike return, a dozen of them won't get you far.
So there is no creature dwelling or upgrade you can build for Dungeon that will solve your immediate problems - you already HAVE your force, when you have two heroes, and you have to decide whether you need an extra in creatures or whether to build on Magic and special buildings right away.
On the other hand - a lot depends. Say, there is a level 2 outside dwelling - and suddenly you can get really many Harpy Hags, which may lead to a somewhat different strategy.
That's what I like with Dungeon (and Inferno). You can pull so many interesting things off, and smallish things can turn the whole game around. Compared to that the 3 good towns are pretty boring (which is not to say they are not "good". It's just like they follow the same routine, while the other 6 towns are different.
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Worst town is - for me - Tower. A lot of bad heroes, very expensive to build, a sucky basic level 7, units have no speed; difficult to hold one's own. Difficult assessment. Flyers are too weak, shooters would be great if Giants could shoot.
All in all I've always felt least comfortable with Tower.
Afterall worst and best differ individually, but i think will agree that tower is worst for me too. I agree that being very expensive is one of its handicaps, Their units are very decent(except gargoyles and i never really got myself to like genies). Now, even their non-magic heroes turn out to be good mages most of the time, but although its supposed to be a town of magic, It is a very slow town, Therefore you mostly cannot cast first, Which ultimately forces you to deflect your opponents spell. Thus, even if you have a large selection of strong spells, the enemy spellcaster can easily force you to deflect his spells.So yes tower poor i agree
I do not agree that Magic heroes are weaker and dissadvantageous but again, you talk mostly about occasions. They can be dissadvantagous in some situations, but generally , don't see how they can be in dissadvantage. I agree that they can be deflected with certain artifacts(orb of inhibition i think) but if you do not have these artifacts a powerful spellcaster will destroy your Might army without a scratch. Expert fire + Berserk for example. You need the immune berserk thing or orb of inhibition. Magic resistance skill will not save you from that. So yes, they may get into serious danger against certain artifacts, but as you can see: i am thinking based on occasions like you do when im stating this, so this is completely based on chance. Also powerful spellcasters can ultimately be faster in map(with magic) and can flank you if you don't play your cards well.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 30, 2012 01:32 PM |
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Tower has more spells available, and this pays a lot when building the last guild level. When played with no rules, everyone will appreciate if he gets that DD or fly, because they provide godly advantage, as long as you keep your town safe.
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thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted October 31, 2012 02:23 PM |
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Salamander, someone mentioned 95 to 99 percent of H3 games are now on random maps. Is it true? isn't it very easy to cheat? Trainers to get favourable maps and that u can just drop to look at whole map which provides gigantic advantage.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 31, 2012 03:24 PM |
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Well, this is the eternal problem, but I don't think is important. If you own wog you can open multiple heroes games, load save from SoD, look at etc. If tournaments gave 20 000$ to the winner, maybe it would become a real danger, but frankly cheating never influenced rankings.
We had the issue Flamingo/Antal in ToH and Isle. They already were great players and it seems like running multiple copies gave often decisive advantage. I would defend Antal if I did not see myself his anti-loss behavior so I think they deserved it.
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thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted October 31, 2012 05:39 PM |
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In fixed maps are there good ways to cheat? Multiple copies can , say, let you know spells in advanced. Or trainers let you defeat undeafeatable monsters, but is easily detected. If you edit map it is often detectable as well. You mean there are good ways to?
It is okay for me to pet them know their Mage guild spells in advanced. I take it as an additional challenge.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 31, 2012 05:44 PM |
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Cheating is easy, but detecting cheating is even easier. People save every day, and if one player has too much "luck", it becomes suspicious. Then is easy to find.
I recall Flamingo got too often armageddon when playing rampart, then players were pissed because he only built one level 4 guild in some secondary town. If you do that each game, you take a big risk of being uncovered.
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KandyKingle
Hired Hero
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posted October 31, 2012 10:11 PM |
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Its hard to say but I think the homestead is the weakest and I think the Dungeon is probably the strongest.
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Amaterasu
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 31, 2012 10:58 PM |
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Quote:
Its hard to say but I think the homestead is the weakest and I think the Dungeon is probably the strongest.
homestead? do you mean rampart? Not that i think any town is weakest but if one would be it definetly would not be rampart. Has so many assets but i do not want to start off with these because im not really sure if you mean rampart by saying homestead i just jumped to that conclusion since woodelf dwelling is called homestead but yeah. You might wanna clear that one.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 01, 2012 03:28 AM |
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it is usually said that conflux is the best town, but what about their elemental vulnerabilities? is that a big disadvantage or not really?
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