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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Strongest Town & Weakest Town in HOMM3
Thread: Strongest Town & Weakest Town in HOMM3 This thread is 34 pages long: 1 10 ... 18 19 20 21 22 ... 30 34 · «PREV / NEXT»
mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 22, 2013 04:30 AM

Archmagi have no penalty for shooting through siege walls, and Crusaders and Ogre Magi are excellent smashers. I prefer both of them over Medusas. So Medusas are worse than four level 4 creatures (Vampires, Ogre Magi, Crusaders, and Archmagi) and better than four level 4 creatures (Basilisks, Pegasi, Fire Elementals, and Demons). That makes them about average. Not below average, then, but still nothing outstanding.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 22, 2013 08:00 AM

The whole Dungeon team is balanced and outstanding as a whole. Let me put it this way, I've been playing random maps for years and Dungeon rarely lets me down, even though the natural resources of the terrain are not very rich.

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Damacon_Ace
Damacon_Ace


Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
posted July 02, 2013 02:14 PM

Quote:
The whole Dungeon team is balanced and outstanding as a whole. Let me put it this way, I've been playing random maps for years and Dungeon rarely lets me down, even though the natural resources of the terrain are not very rich.


Except I think troglodytes and manticores are below average for their level.
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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted July 02, 2013 09:13 PM

Troglodytes are awesome, try Shakti...

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Damacon_Ace
Damacon_Ace


Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
posted July 04, 2013 11:35 AM

Quote:
Troglodytes are awesome, try Shakti...


I tried Shakti a few times, he does make troglodytes a little useful, but they still go down in the endgame.

Of Level 1 specialties, I believe Galthran (skeletons) and Drakon (gnolls) are better than Shakti.

Shakti is in the middle. He's worse than Galthran and Drakon and better than Gretchin (goblins) or Ignatius (imps) from what I discovered.
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lzr
lzr


Hired Hero
posted July 05, 2013 09:43 AM

Of course level 1 units go down in the end game. I believe Necro is the only exception.
Trogs are essential for Dung. It's their main force until they can at least get to Medusas and Minotaurs as Beholders and Harpies suck.

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KingCrimson
KingCrimson


Hired Hero
posted July 10, 2013 11:13 PM
Edited by KingCrimson at 23:15, 10 Jul 2013.

I'm rating them with a twist

Best three towns:

Castle, Rampart, Stronghold

Why? Because these are the three best balanced towns. They have the potential to succeed on just about any given difficulty level or map setting, and can do so without breaking the game. They also don't depend on any unreliable strategies (i.e. Dracogeddon).


Middle three towns:

Fortress, Tower, Dungeon

Why? Because these three towns are heavily situational. Dungeon and Tower both have the potential to do a lot of nasty things, but not on resource-poor, 200% games. Fortress is the inverse - they can dominate when there are few resources lying around, but they struggle on other maps.

Worst three towns:

Necropolis, Inferno, Conflux

I hate to put Necropolis on this list, because it's actually a beautifully balanced town except for one thing: Necromancy. The skill so powerful that it makes the town practically unplayable due to cheesiness. Sure, there are counters for it, but they take a ton of work to pull off - and even if you manage to thwart the skellie-raising efforts, you've still got Dread Knights and Vampire Lords to deal with.

Inferno isn't nearly as weak as it's sometimes made out to be, IMHO, but it's still kind of an underdog. Most of its strategies (like Demon farming and Efreeti-geddon) are very situational and can be difficult to pull off - and unlike Necro, if Demon farming fails, you haven't got much else to fall back on. Add to that high costs and no real stand-out units and you've got a town that just feels like it needs a boost.

Conflux barely even needs mentioning. It gets so many absurd bonuses that it feels like a handicap town, meant to even the odds between two players of obviously different skill levels. An incredibly powerful level 1 who also has the highest growth of any unit in the game; a level 3 unit in its level 2 slot (seriously... how many fights can't be won with Sprites and Storms?), DOUBLE GROWTH level 7s that are also the fastest unit in the game AND that regenerate when killed... You know what the best part is? In the AB manual it describes Flux as a town that emphasizes creatures of mid-range strength. I don't know if that's referring to an emphasis on mid-level creatures, or an emphasis on creatures that have no real advantages or disadvantages, but either way it's laughable.

Oh, right, and there's the absurdly powerful special buildings (Magic University and Grail), the heroes who start with Basic or even Advanced spell schools... Yeah. Not a fan.

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Herry
Herry


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
100% Devil
posted February 03, 2014 08:08 PM

Death said:
The strongest town (I think) is the INFERNO or the TOWER or DUNGEON!!! I can say wich is the strongest because I like them all!!! And the weakest are the other!!! (stronghold I hate most!!!)

nope, the stronghold is the kind for guys with pure physical power, just get the artifact that dosen't allow you or A.I to use magic, have a good army, upgrade your behemoths, and go for it. and the cyclops make sieges easier, from my point of view, if you get a full might hero with pathfinding and logistics, and a true horde of monsters, it's just baby-play. it's pretty strong, and IS a good choice for beginners. and fortress... unless you know what you're doing, stay away from that one. you need to use it with caution, i would just use it in warlords one for bringing reinforcements from the other side, attack him with a barbarian and he's perfectly cornered. monoliths? oh i was just wondering, what would happen if you put a hero in a two monolith, and the A.I tries going through the other two way? would the game crash? would he be unable to go to the monolith? would you go to battle? would it crash the whole O.S? none knows... YET
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted February 03, 2014 08:33 PM

A battle would start.

I think in heroes 2 it's possible to actually block monoliths, but I'm not sure.

If you're allied with a color, you can block his monolith.

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Herry
Herry


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
100% Devil
posted February 03, 2014 08:35 PM

OhforfSake said:
A battle would start.

I think in heroes 2 it's possible to actually block monoliths, but I'm not sure.

If you're allied with a color, you can block his monolith.

AWESOME! hahahahahahhahahah!!!! <evil laugh>
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szilellis
szilellis

Tavern Dweller
posted February 07, 2014 05:36 PM

I believe is more about 'town vs town' than simply 'best town'.

There aren't significant differences in overall. So it is more important to know all towns strengths and weaknesses. Knowing the town you play and also know other towns. That makes the difference not a towns advantages in overall.

Parameters like the map, opposing towns and win objective are more important than a standard town selection because it is 'better'.

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szilellis
szilellis

Tavern Dweller
posted February 07, 2014 05:47 PM

artu said:
Quote:
Dungeon is definitely the weakest town


All creatures except Scorpicores kick ass, and in Wog, Scorpicores get to be great if they gain enough expi.

Actually Scorpicores look weak compared to the other creatures having standard abilities. I mean Harpies will strike and return/no retal, EE and MQ will use range attack and you really don;t bothered got cornered, MK damage like level 6 and you know that there is no impolsion on BD, all their HP have to through fight.

The total owning comes as a bonus when Scorps actually paralyze, forcing enemy to either waste a spell or forget a unit. This wins a spell for you or at least balances a case where you have to waste a spell because of enemy creature ability.

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Gelbrekt
Gelbrekt

Tavern Dweller
posted May 06, 2014 11:23 PM

Hey, I am sorry if i am interrupting anyone now, but i just I want to point out my opinion on Necropolis in this game.

Necromancy is obviously a very strong skill on large maps, but i would without doubt say that Necropolis would be broken even if the necromancy skill was nerfed to 0%. This is due to the Vampire Lords.

I tested this by making a Random Map on the HotA version of the game. It was a small map (36*36 squares with 2 layers). I changed the Random Generated Map slightly so that only 1 player was present, with the goal to defeat 250 (TWO HUNDRED FIFTY) Chaos Hydras in ONE MONTH (Game Over at Month 2, Week 1, Day 1), playing on easy difficulty WITHOUT THE BERSERKER SPELL.

( The map had 4 towns (1 starting town, the rest were guarded by neutral troops). All towns were the same faction as your starting town. There was 3 guarded gold mines on the map as well as a black marked and about 5 primary skill boosting structures. You started with Boots of Speed and a Witch Hut that always granted Earth Magic. However, you had no starting troops or buildings in any of the towns except for the STANDARD STARTING TROOPS and buildings )

I beat the map with Thant (with 10 in each primary skill) and 90 Vampire Lords by blinding the Chaos Hydras (if youíd like i can give a more detailed description on how i did it later). If anyone think that ANY OTHER FACTION COULD DO THIS IN ANY WAY i would love to know that.

Every single game (on Large, XL and larger maps, any difficulty above easy) i play Necropolis with Thant, never Irsa or any other hero. My simple strategy is to go all in for max vampire production + a Town hall on week 1, then upgrade the estate at week 2 or 3 depending on how quickly i can find the 10 gems and crystals. Once i have around 30 vampire lords and Thant with about 5 Knowledge and Earth Magic i can beat almost any stack on the map (i often play Random Maps), and the resources, primary skills and creatures, rewarded from those battles gives me a huge advantage because Thant becomes very strong and gets an unstoppable army.

The reason why i am saying this is because i have barely seen anyone mention Vampire Lords on this forum or anyowhere else. Everyone are just like ďBone dragons and Walking dead are below average, necropolis suckĒ. I would place Necropolis on top 1 Best Town in heroes 3, even if Necromancy was removed and the Vampire Lordsí cost were doubled.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted May 06, 2014 11:56 PM

The Vamp. Lord is a very powerful unit, despite only being a level 4 unit, it's stronger than most level 5 units, but it has its weaknesses too. Another very powerful unit is the Power Lich, which shouldn't be underestimated either.

A neutral stack of Chaos Hydras aren't particularly difficult to defeat due to their low speed. E.g. there's a "joke" about how 1 sprite can take down legions of Hydras.

Gelbrekt said:
Everyone are just like ďBone dragons and Walking dead are below average, necropolis suckĒ.


No, they aren't.
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gelbrekt
gelbrekt

Tavern Dweller
posted May 07, 2014 11:02 AM

You don't understand. 250 Chaos Hydras have an insane amount of health, and it would be difficult beating them even with 20 arch devils on that map because your hero can't have any more than 10 knowledge due to the small map size and short time (so you can only keep Expert Slow for a limited amount of turns, and a single hit on your troops is completly devestating).

What I did was to hide the vampire lords in the corners (where only 2 hydras could attack at a time). Once I got those 2 hydra stacks down to 1-2 hydras using Stone Skin, Shield, Bloodlust, Blind and Animate Dead (all 7 stacks started at 35 chaos hydras), I could hit and run on the remaining Chaos Hydras while hiding between the weak stacks.

I know the vampire lords have 2 weaknesses: they can't steal health from unliving creatures and they have poor stats for their high cost. However, the poor stats are not relevant because they have 100% life steal, so they crush any living unit if you play with them correctly. At the same time, only like 15% of the units in the game are unliving. When i fight unliving troops on random maps. I use Thant's Animate Dead to spare me from any Vampire Lord losses even in those battles.

For those reasons I am very sure that Vampire Lords are not just "better than level 5 creatures", the Vampire Lords are easily on the top 3 most cost efficient units in the game. The only real weakness they are that you can't spend very much money on them every week (you can spend 4k gold per week on them with a castle, while you can spend 10k per week on titans and Archangels).

The point of all this is that necropolis is overpowered even without necromancy because they can maximize the production of one of the top 3 most cost efficient units in the game (unupgraded) during the first week. Conflux is the only faction that can go up against Necropolis because they have alot of unliving units (including the Vampire Lordsí worst nightmare; Magic Elementals). However, even conflux will lose against necropolis on large maps because the huge economical advantage (from defeated neutral armies) given by the Vampire Lords gives necropolis too many troops and strong heroes.

A very important note when using the vampire lords effectively is that you must go all in to maximize the vampire production as soon as possible (because they are stronger the greater number they are), and that you must place them in the top right corner of the battlefield. This is because only 2 enemies can attack the vampire lords then, allowing them to fight only 2/7 of the enemies at a time.

For example,  Level 5 Thant + 50 Vampire Lords go up against 420 neutral swordsmen. When the battle begins there is one stack of 50 vampire lords and the 420 swordsmen split up into 7 stacks with 60 swordsmen in each stack.
* Thant uses Advanced Stone Skin, Shield, and Bloodlust on the vampire lords.
* The Vampire Lords fly up in the corner on the right side of the battlefield.
* 1 Stack of 60 Swordsmen attack the vampire lords. The vampire lords retaliate and almost all casualities from the Swordsmen attack are resurrected from the Life Drain ability.
* Another stack of 60 Swordsmen attack the vampire lords. About 35 Vampire Lords remain, but all other swordsmen are now blocked. They canít attack the Vampire Lords and are forced to go into defensive mode.
* Thant resurrects 10 vampire lords using Animate Dead.
* The Vampire Lords attack one stack of the Swordsmen (20 dies). There are now 2 stacks with 45 swordsmen each that can attack the stack with 50 Vampire Lords. At this point the swordsmen canít deal enough damage to kill the vampire lords because the Vampire Lords will steal their health constantly.
*THE 50 VAMPIRE LORDS TAKE OUT ALL 420 SWORDSMEN, 2 stacks at a time. THE ONLY THING LOST DURING THE BATTLE WAS THANTíS ENERGY, NOT A SINGLE VAMPIRE LORD. This is NOT due to the Swordsmensí slow speed, Any living unit would suffer the same fate.
50 Vampire lord cost: 25k Gold
420 Swordsmen cost: 126k Gold
Vampire lord cost-efficiency: Ridiculous.

I really canít imagine any strategy on large maps and larger that could defeat this strategy (except for necromancy and possibly conflux). If you think you know one, i would love to know.

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gelbrekt
gelbrekt

Tavern Dweller
posted May 07, 2014 11:35 AM

Just to clarify, I made up these numbers in my mind. I didn't test this specific scenario with 50 VL vs 420 swordsmen, although i have tested very similar scenarios hundreds of times. However, this does NOT involve Thant using Animate Dead 15 times, only about 3. After that, the vampires can beat the swordsmen alone.  Also, i didn't mention Blind being used. Blinding one of the 2 stacks standing near the vampire Lords gives them an even greater advantage that allows them to beat even a higher number of enemies.

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted May 07, 2014 12:57 PM

Demon farming. Week 3 u would have 20 Vamp Lords while good Inferno player can accumulate 70-80 horned demons until then.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted May 07, 2014 01:10 PM

The thing is, once you've the battlefield under control, there are other spells you can use to halt the Chaos Hydras completely for the entire battle. Quicksand comes to mind.

By month 2 you can have more than 20 knowledge and you can have your mana doubles, or even quadrupled, but I don't think you need that much mana to be honest.

The cornering of V-Lords to deal with one enemy at a time is indeed a nice strategy. I usually used it when clearing out conservatories, but it's not the best option when battling an enemy hero, because the V-Lords gets lower range on the battlefield, but are still as open to spells as ever. Maybe towards the end of the battle it can work.

Using low level units to test against the V-Lords isn't the best idea. They're specifically known to devastate these units without any loses. If you're up against 7x60 Swordsmen you need no spells, because 50 V-Lords can defeat 50 Swordsmen without losing any.. of course at first it's 2x50, but you can trick the AI, so the second attacker is the last mover on the AI's side and hence once it's weakened, you'll practically only ever fight 50 at a time.

V-Lords have more trouble against high level units, depending on numbers, there are higher likeliness of loss of troops or even the battle against a higher level unit.
One of the major problems for V-Lords despite those you mention are covered shooters and that their growth is way too low to compete with higher level units. 8 V-Lords are without a chance against 2 level 7's and most 4 level 6's, I believe, but I haven't tested it for the level 6 units.
It is not correct that other towns can't get level 7 first week, either level 7 units or level 7 + castle is often possible in my experience, excluding Dungeon and Rampart. Further more, there are often level 7 dwellings, which boost the town population 100% assuming castle and 1 dwelling, no grail, whereas for V-Lords it goes from 8 to 10.
Against a covered shooter, V-Lords can often face problems, even against shooters they typically easily defeat, such as zealots. 100 V-Lords, no matter how you split them, may not have the necessary time to defeat 94 Zealots covered by 6x1 Zealots.

When I said they were better than many level 5 units, I mean if you take 100 units in a single stack and let them face 100 opposing units in a single stack, you'll find V-Lords is rather a high-end level 5 unit than a level 4 unit.

Anyway I do agree with you that V-Lords are awesome, but I do not agree that they can't be dealt with. Especially damage spells should really wreak havoc to them, because their life drain depends on the damage they deal and the less units the less life drain and on the same time they're somewhat low health units.

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Gelbrekt
Gelbrekt

Tavern Dweller
posted May 07, 2014 01:47 PM

I hadnít thought of using Quicksand, that was clever. Anyway, I didnít say VLs are good against an enemy player, I said that the advantage they give from defeated neutral army stacks will allow you to have a much stronger hero/army than the enemy player before he can you. I know that VLs are stronger vs lower level troops than higher level troops, but on random maps the higher level neutral troops rarely come in very large numbers even if the monster strength is set to strong. Therefore the same strategy work against them (including spells during those battles).

Getting lvl 7 creatures the first week and then upgrading them on week 2 or 3 is a very large investment on impossible and expert difficulty, while doing the same with the Estate isnít. On lower difficulties itís of course easier to get the lvl 7s, but then the same goes for Necropolis, who can get Black Knight, Liches or the Capitol at the same time as the VLs.

Regarding the demon summoning I find it hard to believe you could get 70-80 Demons on week 3, at least on impossible and expert difficulty (where you almost always can get get 24 VL on week 3), but perhaps those modes arenít very commin in multiplater games.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted May 07, 2014 02:02 PM

I like V-Lords for creeping to. Like I wrote earlier, it's a nice way to clear out conservatories.

I don't think they allow a particular advantage compared to other towns.. to be honest. E.g. take Dungeon and Shakti and you can do quite a lot the first week. But I think a better example is if you e.g. compare how fast you can clear the map compared to one of the best players I've seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJzQ8DXrgcY. Notice he doesn't wait a whole week or similar.

All the stuff I wrote about before was assumed to be on the hard difficulty setting. I don't know much about the game on the other difficulties, I've ever only played the AI on those.
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