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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Questions on Tactics and "chainning"
Thread: Questions on Tactics and "chainning" [ This thread is 7 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 5 6 7 ]
Jebus
Jebus


Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
posted October 22, 2004 09:25 AM

Questions on Tactics and "chainning"

Just looking for a little guidance....

First:  
I have never been a fan of Tactics but I've seen allot of players mention their preference for this skill....  Just looking for your input!!!

Second:  
I've also seen allot of references to "chainning".
I've had a short explanation of the strategy but am looking for a little more indepth explanation....  (not too long please) but your ideas will be appreciated!!

(if these subjects have been discussed in the past, please send me the thread!!!)
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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted October 22, 2004 11:51 AM

I think many people use the tactics skill because they play with might heroes. Therefore, for them (me too!) it is better to have the fastest route to the opponent. Cast Expert slow and have expert tactics, you're on the ball.
This is even more true when the opponent has shooting guys: you get there as soon as possible. It also helps because if you  send your fast guy in by himself, he'll get demolished by the time the rest of your army gets to the other side.

My personnal favourite tactic (it's a pretty obvious to everyone, I'll just post it for n00bs), is the one where you hit a creature while standing beside the shooting guy. When the shooter attacks you, he does half damage and you retaliate with more attack that he will ever see!!!
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KingofMinota...
KingofMinotaurs


Known Hero
Ruling the minotaurs below
posted October 25, 2004 04:15 PM

Quote:

My personnal favourite tactic (it's a pretty obvious to everyone, I'll just post it for n00bs), is the one where you hit a creature while standing beside the shooting guy. When the shooter attacks you, he does half damage and you retaliate with more attack that he will ever see!!!


I know this is pretty obvious, but I'm just gonna throw it out there. Lots (maybe even most) archers/shooters have no melee penalty, so that tactic kinda doesn't work. This tactic doesn't work for Zealots, (Arch) Magi, Titans, Beholders/Evil Eyes, Medusa (Queens), also if you have AB, Storm and Ice elementals, and Enchanters. So there are some creatures on which it doesn't work, but still about the skill Tactics, I personally don't try to get it, but I think it is still a great skill that comes in handy. It is useful even to arrange your shooters to not get hit by those pesky Dragon Flies / Effreti Sultans / Thunderbirds / Dragons. And I WILL get Tactics over Eagle Eye, Navigation, Mysticism, and Scholar.  
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LordLazy
LordLazy


Promising
Famous Hero
Wood cleaner
posted October 25, 2004 06:54 PM

Quote:
I know this is pretty obvious, but I'm just gonna throw it out there. Lots (maybe even most) archers/shooters have no melee penalty, so that tactic kinda doesn't work. This tactic doesn't work for Zealots, (Arch) Magi, Titans, Beholders/Evil Eyes, Medusa (Queens), also if you have AB, Storm and Ice elementals, and Enchanters. So there are some creatures on which it doesn't work, but still about the skill Tactics, I personally don't try to get it, but I think it is still a great skill that comes in handy. It is useful even to arrange your shooters to not get hit by those pesky Dragon Flies / Effreti Sultans / Thunderbirds / Dragons. And I WILL get Tactics over Eagle Eye, Navigation, Mysticism, and Scholar.


most - ? archers, elves, gogs, lizards, cyclops, orcs, liches, bladdibla, have melee penalty Tactics is a skill you wont find very useful before playing online, but when you do, you will soon see tactics is a must, not only to prevent fast units to reach shooters, but also to prevent morale dudes reaching your shooters. Also, the most important thing is when main fight occurs. Castle vs castle, one have tactics, other not.. if about equal heroes and forces, who do you think will win?

Regards
LL

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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted October 25, 2004 07:01 PM

Quote:
Castle vs castle, one have tactics, other not.. if about equal heroes and forces, who do you think will win?


That's just not fair. He's not saying it is a useless skill, just not one he'd pick... of course if all else is equal, you will do well with tactics, but it's unrealistic to think that in a fight, all aspects will be equal except for one with tactics and not the other...

BTW, I'm a tactics kinda guy.
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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted October 26, 2004 04:19 AM

Donīt underestimate tactics..

Look at this situation:

You go into a fight against 5 single behemots.
You only have archers (or marksmen), some pikemen and 1 angel.
Normaly, the behemots would wait on their turn, coz they canīt reach you, canīt attack anything and they "know" u will have a broken arrow with your shooters.

With tactics, u can place 1 single pikeman as far to the right as possible and "sacrifice" them as a fodder.
Now the Behemots wonīt wait, coz they can make damage, so they attack the single pikeman. To their strong dismay, they stand in the range of your archers/marksmen, so u could probably kill them, or at least damage so hard, the angel could do the rest after they had waited.
Now one pikeman is dead...and 1 behemot as well...if u use the other single pikemen similar, u can get those Behemots in your range...or lead them back to their starting direction when u cast haste on one single pikeman to have more time again to kill them with shooters and the angel.

Without tactics, this fight is much harder and u probably would lose some more troops..
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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted October 26, 2004 01:11 PM
Edited By: Conan on 26 Oct 2004

so you are saying that if there are "few" behemoths, you put 5 pikemen in different single stacks and run them up to the middle of the screen with expert tactics? then you have one dead behemoths with say ... 3 other ones with full HP, in the middle of the screen. you have then a stack of marksmen on the left of the screen and 1 angel in the middle. All your pikemen are dead, so no more fodder.
Next round, after the angel attacked, it is his turn again (speed) what do you do?
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Jebus
Jebus


Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
posted October 26, 2004 01:34 PM

Quote:
Donīt underestimate tactics..

Look at this situation:

You go into a fight against 5 single behemots.
You only have archers (or marksmen), some pikemen and 1 angel.
Normaly, the behemots would wait on their turn, coz they canīt reach you, canīt attack anything and they "know" u will have a broken arrow with your shooters.

With tactics, u can place 1 single pikeman as far to the right as possible and "sacrifice" them as a fodder.
Now the Behemots wonīt wait, coz they can make damage, so they attack the single pikeman. To their strong dismay, they stand in the range of your archers/marksmen, so u could probably kill them, or at least damage so hard, the angel could do the rest after they had waited.
Now one pikeman is dead...and 1 behemot as well...if u use the other single pikemen similar, u can get those Behemots in your range...or lead them back to their starting direction when u cast haste on one single pikeman to have more time again to kill them with shooters and the angel.

Without tactics, this fight is much harder and u probably would lose some more troops..




(I hate doing this but.....)
I have yet to play a game that the above situation has ever accured...  
1- I've never seen 5 single behemots set up that way (unless I totaly out matched ) and
2- I have never had an army composed solely of the units you refer to.  

I see the benefits of having tactics when playing real players but, in the end, I find it slows down the beginning of the battle....  Most of the time the sooner I start the sooner I want to finish (against the computer).
I'm sure that attitude will change when I play more on line.


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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted October 26, 2004 01:48 PM

Quote:
so you are saying that if there are "few" behemoths, you put 5 pikemen in different single stacks and run them up to the middle of the screen with expert tactics? then you have one dead behemoths with say ... 3 other ones with full HP, in the middle of the screen. you have then a stack of marksmen on the left of the screen and 1 angel in the middle. All your pikemen are dead, so no more fodder.
Next round, after the angel attacked, it is his turn again (speed) what do you do?



Perhaps i didnīt explain very well...

Surely i only place the pikeman on the TOP row to the very right to make the Behemot able to reach it, not the 4 other stacks. If u place the other 4 stacks out of range, but near to the bottom of the field, the other Behemots will go in that direction. Next round u can wait with your angels, haste 1 pikeman which has to walk near the starting point of 1 Behemot to the very right, so 1 of the 3 Behemots will go backwards. Another will go forward and kill one pikeman, the 3rd as well. Now u can shoot on 1 of the near behemots (no broken arrow) and do the rest with the angel again.
Next turn u attack the nearest Behemot with your angels (retaliation and attack wont do 200 damage to kill your angel). Now your single pikeman to the very right goes to the top row on the right side, the near behemot will follow. Archers attack (kill) Behemot near angel.
Now 3rd turn starts, normaly there will be only 1 Behemot left (the one on his starting line), if u were unlucky, there is one more with low hp left. U can kill this one and do the same job (archers, angels) with the last Behemot.
So the battle lasts 4 rounds (if bad luck, 5 rounds), but this situation should happen in the FIRST week day 5 or 6!!
If these Behemots guarded a box (gold, 10.000 exp.points) your main hero will level up very fast in the first week. Or they guarded a major artifact, which will help ya to defeat stronger units..
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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted October 26, 2004 02:26 PM

angelito is in right direction but makes a dumbass example.

Take this, you got expert tactics.. you fight 3 dragons first week (for a dwell or whatever).

With expert or advanced tactics then you can arrange your troops so that the dragonstack of 3 can reach a unit first turn.

Saying you got many lvl 1 units (your powerstack), then you put one lvl 1 unit that the dragons can reach.

Battle begins, dragons go first because of highest speed and they attack the unit they can reach.

Then you wait and attack with another stack of 1 lvl unit to take the dragons retaliation. And after that you throw all melee units on the drags, and you will have the drags within shooting range.

Off course there are many variations of this strategy but its a great one that saves you lots of units.

As for chaining there are already many threads and great explanations and different versions of it. Go see one of those.

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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted October 26, 2004 05:22 PM
Edited By: Conan on 26 Oct 2004

Quote:
Surely i only place the pikeman on the TOP row to the very right to make the Behemot able to reach it, not the 4 other stacks.

That is during the free movement from the tactics phase?
Quote:
If u place the other 4 stacks out of range, but near to the bottom of the field, the other Behemots will go in that direction.

This is during the first round?
Quote:
Next round u can wait with your angels, haste 1 pikeman which has to walk near the starting point of 1 Behemot to the very right, so 1 of the 3 Behemots will go backwards. Another will go forward and kill one pikeman, the 3rd as well.

So in the second round, you move all 4 other pikemen in the middle, but one will go all the way to the left?
Quote:
Now u can shoot on 1 of the near behemots (no broken arrow) and do the rest with the angel again.

At this point at the end of the second round, you should have the marksmen, one angel, and one pikement left but all other pikemen should be dead as the one behemoth came back to the right to kill the hasted one and the 2 in the middle died by the 2 behemoths.
So, 2 behemoths remain: one in the far right of the screen and one in the middle of the screen.
Quote:
Next turn u attack the nearest Behemot with your angels (retaliation and attack wont do 200 damage to kill your angel). Now your single pikeman to the very right goes to the top row on the right side, the near behemot will follow. Archers attack (kill) Behemot near angel.

This is the beginning of round 3. I thought the hasted pikemen that went to the far right died?
Quote:
Now 3rd turn starts, normaly there will be only 1 Behemot left (the one on his starting line), if u were unlucky, there is one more with low hp left. U can kill this one and do the same job (archers, angels) with the last Behemot.

So this *should* be the 4rth round. if you have the one behemoth on the far right, and a angel with low hp, how will you manage?
Quote:
So the battle lasts 4 rounds (if bad luck, 5 rounds), but this situation should happen in the FIRST week day 5 or 6!!

I can see it lasting that long.
Quote:
If these Behemots guarded a box (gold, 10.000 exp.points) your main hero will level up very fast in the first week. Or they guarded a major artifact, which will help ya to defeat stronger units..

Thanks for your help with this.
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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted October 26, 2004 05:37 PM

Quote:
Take this, you got expert tactics.. you fight 3 dragons first week (for a dwell or whatever).

You really can get expert tactics in the first weak? Wouldn't that be hard to do considering you take gold from the chests? The only way would have to be to take a hero with the tactics skill already present... right?

Quote:
With expert or advanced tactics then you can arrange your troops so that the dragonstack of 3 can reach a unit first turn.

Saying you got many lvl 1 units (your powerstack), then you put one lvl 1 unit that the dragons can reach.

You have to put a single lvl 1 unit aside before the fight?

Quote:
Battle begins, dragons go first because of highest speed and they attack the unit they can reach.

Then you wait and attack with another stack of 1 lvl unit to take the dragons retaliation. And after that you throw all melee units on the drags, and you will have the drags within shooting range.

So you have 2 stacks of single level 1 units, arranged before the fight?

Quote:
Off course there are many variations of this strategy but its a great one that saves you lots of units.


I can see that. Thanks!
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sirzapdos
sirzapdos


Promising
Famous Hero
Open the pod bay doors, Hal.
posted October 26, 2004 10:54 PM

Quote:
You really can get expert tactics in the first weak? Wouldn't that be hard to do considering you take gold from the chests? The only way would have to be to take a hero with the tactics skill already present... right?

That helps, but it's possible to get it naturally through leveling up, or through other things like Scholars or even Universities. The most common way to gain experience early is to clear all the monsters around and hit any learning stones. Odds are you won't fight 3 dragons right away, but after a couple of days, your hero can be strong enough to do it, and win using strats like Stiven's.
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KingofMinota...
KingofMinotaurs


Known Hero
Ruling the minotaurs below
posted October 27, 2004 02:34 PM

Quote:
Quote:
You really can get expert tactics in the first weak? Wouldn't that be hard to do considering you take gold from the chests? The only way would have to be to take a hero with the tactics skill already present... right?

That helps, but it's possible to get it naturally through leveling up, or through other things like Scholars or even Universities. The most common way to gain experience early is to clear all the monsters around and hit any learning stones. Odds are you won't fight 3 dragons right away, but after a couple of days, your hero can be strong enough to do it, and win using strats like Stiven's.


Ok, but IMO it all depends on the chest's choice and what difficulty you play on but if you have an option of 1500g or 2000xp I take the exp...the other options I take gold.
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Ste
Ste


Promising
Famous Hero
Passed away
posted October 27, 2004 03:08 PM

You mean 2000 gold and 1500 exp?
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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted October 27, 2004 03:21 PM

Quote:
Ok, but IMO it all depends on the chest's choice and what difficulty you play on but if you have an option of 1500g or 2000xp I take the exp...the other options I take gold.


Well, what do you do if you're playing impossible? taking xp from a chest at the beginning of the game is really not usefull. Unless you guys are talking about playing on the zone...
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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted October 27, 2004 03:41 PM

Taking experience from a chest is NEVER usefull....especially on 160% or 200% u need all money u can get..
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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted October 27, 2004 04:05 PM

ok so then the comment made by sirzapdos is really the only way to go about it...

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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted October 27, 2004 04:06 PM

ya gold is better in 99.9% of the cases, there are few exceptions but you just focus on getting the gold

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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted October 27, 2004 04:08 PM

ok so then the comment made by sirzapdos is really the only way to go about it...
Of course we are only talking about getting tactics early in the game. But is this such a big advantage? To me, it seems you have to know exactly how many level 7's there are before the fight to split up your fodders in single units, witch you never know anyways.
In any case, does any1 have any examples of how tactics is usefull later in the game?

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