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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Downhill Times
Thread: Downhill Times This thread is 27 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 ... 23 24 25 26 27 · «PREV / NEXT»
guitarguy
guitarguy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
posted March 13, 2005 12:01 AM

Pandora--
Quote:
What's amusing is that during these times, listening to the right song, or even seeing some stupid sappy TV ad will set off the tears quite unexpectedly. It's as though I have to be relaxed enough to let go.

So maybe what you're doing is putting too much pressure on yourself to actually give in to what you're feeling, and actually causing yourself to suppress it.

That sounds about right. I'll have to try for the right mood next time.

Aculias--
Quote:
My dad can care less about my personal life, only about School & I know right 7 wrong so I should never go through anythang in life & my mom treats me like a 5 yr old because i am the baby of my brother so I only rely my brother & friends to understand what I go through hehe.

Do your parents keep in touch with you a lot? It must be frustrating, as you say, that they have a hard time accepting you being older and independent. Are they fully aware of the things you went through, or do they only know half or less of the story?

-guitarguy
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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted March 17, 2005 04:27 PM
Edited By: bort on 17 Mar 2005

Where's Gootch when you need him?  He'd say the following in a much more accurate way, but hey, I'll give it a shot.

Guitarguy, I'm sorry, but this girl isn't into you.

(Pause, wait for angry protests, wait while "you don't know what the hell you are talking about" statements are finished)

She's going to the mainland and she's not going to be sitting in her dorm room pining away for you.  Give up on this one, it's not going to happen.  Start worrying about the next one to come along.

(wait for claims that no girl could ever be as perfect or ever take her place)

Get your ass to the gym.  Why?  Because, first, it will get your mind off of her.  Second, it will help you attract girls.  

(waits for protests that oh, no, big muscles are gross.  Physical appearance doesn't matter and so forth.)

Okay, out of everybody's systems?  I don't mean become a body builder, just make sure you're in good shape.  As far as physical appearance doesn't matter, who here honestly believes that?  Physical appearance isn't everything, it isn't even the most important thing, but show of hands ladies, given the choice between a fantastic personality and a fantastic personality combined with abs of steel, which are you going to choose?

Besides, you might meet a bible thumping hottie at the gym.

Second, join some clubs at school.  You'll meet people and also learn something and have fun.

Make sure you're actually learning stuff in your classes.  Read the newspaper and books that are different from the ones you normally read.  Keep playing the guitar.  Don't be the twit who sits on the campus crooning bad folk songs hoping somebody will come up and talk to you, but don't be shy about letting people know that you play guitar.  (And don't write a freakin' song about them until you've actually been dating for awhile.)  The amazing thing about being an interesting person is...  people find you interesting.  The thing about being the creepy guy who writes songs about you after one date and who keeps giving you gifts is... people find you creepy.

Stop worrying about what's going to happen when Laura leaves.  Worry about making sure the next one doesn't.

Am I talking out of my ass?  Probably.  It's only based on what you've written, so disregard the whole post if it doesn't cut curiously close to home.

(Disclaimer - when I made the statement about making sure the next one doesn't leave, I don't mean tie her up in your basement or anything like that.)
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guitarguy
guitarguy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
posted March 17, 2005 10:00 PM

Rant Mode

*jaw drops ten stories* You don't know what the hell you are talking about!

I'll have to take your words with a grain of salt because you're trying to give me advice for my own good, yet my dwindling sense of self esteem just took a massive plunge. This little protest of mine will hopefully make it clear that I have no intention of "selling out" in this case.

Quote:
Start worrying about the next one to come along.

Here's the deal: I'm not your average girl magnet. Nor am I a below average girl magnet. I'm just not one. I said earlier that I've become more social over the years, but that doesn't mean everybody'll flock to me because I'm so cool and I've got good looks. It just means I'm a little braver and better at speaking, but that's just one side of it. You know, I try my darnedest in public to be a nice guy, despite being shy. Not just on the street, but on campus and in class as well. But the overall effects (girl-wise) are few and far between. I can have a nice conversation with a random girl in class, but then nothing else would happen after that. No more talking. Nothing special comes to be. You'll probably say I should take a risk and approach the girls more often, but keep in mind that it takes considerable courage. I haven't developed into that kind of person yet.

Quote:
Get your ass to the gym. Why? Because, first, it will get your mind off of her. Second, it will help you attract girls.

A. Going to some gym will not take my mind off her. Looking at other decent looking girls will not keep my mind off her, either.
B. Trying to attract girls in a gym is risky business. Especially since I'm very self-conscious about what I show off. No one can blame me for being this way, because that's just how I am. After all, I'm not likely to grow up to become one of those models on teen magazine covers. My family line isn't exactly well-known for sensational bods.

Quote:
Make sure you're actually learning stuff in your classes. Read the newspaper and books that are different from the ones you normally read.

I am.

Quote:
Keep playing the guitar. Don't be the twit who sits on the campus crooning bad folk songs hoping somebody will come up and talk to you, but don't be shy about letting people know that you play guitar. (And don't write a freakin' song about them until you've actually been dating for awhile.) The amazing thing about being an interesting person is... people find you interesting. The thing about being the creepy guy who writes songs about you after one date and who keeps giving you gifts is... people find you creepy.

Twit? I wasn't prepared for such suggestive sentiments! Bad folk songs? Assuming my musical repertoire is that crappy, it seems. And about the songs: I'm gonna write songs about the girl if it'll make me feel better, but I would not present them to her, of course, unless we were truly serious. Mind you, I take these issues very seriously, and quite personally.

Quote:
Keep playing the guitar.

This suggestion struck me as very encouraging, however. You are right, music is one of the most important aspects of my life, as well as one of the most hopeful. I am always happy when people tell me to keep playing. I'd like to recognize how much I draw positively from comments like that.

I'm not trying to blame you for not knowing much about me; I would respond in the same way to anybody who'd try to talk me out of this relationship. Laura has been the closest chance I've ever had; behind that, NOTHING comes close. Nothing. To give up on it, to me, is just unthinkable. There's a chance that she does like me, beyond friendship, but the main obstacle there is that she is still very shy and wants to get her college schooling over with first. Right now, I hope that's the case. I'd prefer that it'd be the case rather than her not giving me a second thought at all. And I won't slack while I wait for her, either. I'll do my school stuff but also work out some music plan when I can. I'm taking steps to form an alternative rock band that will hopefully hold some gigs at my university in the future. It might not totally subdue the painful thoughts, but I think it will help.

Hope that clears up stuff. Please pardon my defensive nature over Laura.

-guitarguy
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted March 17, 2005 10:50 PM

LoL

Looks like your sensitivity paid off eh bort? Ah well no suprise. What do you expect when looking up to such a great hero like The_Gootch? No point in my continued rant of nonsense though. I'm sure I don't know what hell I'm talking about.

Cheers
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted March 18, 2005 01:49 AM

Eventually it will be getting over with,just like me & everyone else, if you cant then you wont move on.
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Dreaming of a Better World

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted March 18, 2005 02:40 AM

Quote:
There's a chance that she does like me, beyond friendship, but the main obstacle there is that she is still very shy and wants to get her college schooling over with first. Right now, I hope that's the case. I'd prefer that it'd be the case rather than her not giving me a second thought at all. And I won't slack while I wait for her, either.

So whats the plan now? You are going to abstain from girls until she returns, and waste your best years at uni in waiting?! And only when she comes back you learn that she forgot all about you? U think about it.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

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guitarguy
guitarguy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
posted March 18, 2005 09:17 AM

Finding hope in my pain

Quote:
So whats the plan now? You are going to abstain from girls until she returns, and waste your best years at uni in waiting?! And only when she comes back you learn that she forgot all about you? U think about it.

About abstaining from girls -- not in the painful sense. It's not like girls call me every single day asking for a date. I guess I'm not the kind of guy who has that certain "presence" or charisma that would attract most girls. Most of the girls I see in class are very outgoing and fun-loving; I'm not socially compatible with them. I'm better at fitting in with the minority: the quiet and modest girls. They seem to be the best match for me, personally.

I don't want to be in a relationship just for the sex. On the other hand, I want something with meaning that will ultimately last. So there won't be any one night stands with me, to be honest. Part of this is because of my upbringing, my faith, what I've learned at school, etc. I also look beyond sex because I've found positive aspects through having a sincere friendship/relationship with a girl. It goes back to when I was younger and much more antisocial. I had very little confidence in myself and I thought I'd never amount to very much since I couldn't make friends easily. I even worried that when I grew up, I wouldn't get married since I'd still be so uptight and withdrawn. At present, I'm glad that my friendship with Laura proved me wrong. When I first got to know her, I enjoyed the experience very much and didn't even give a thought to sex at all. That still holds true today. I'm not a playboy in the least (might scare Laura even if I was).

Since I'm not dying for the sex, I guess I can survive the "best years".

When I think about how much I care for Laura, I feel more willing to make the sacrifice (accepting her going away). She's totally worth it in the end. Plus, I want her to be happy. She's the type to feel uncomfortable rushing into a relationship too quickly; I wouldn't be happy with myself if I were to hold her back from college and cause her to feel that way. So, while painful, I'd let her go do her thing. It's painful, yes, so that's why I made this thread. Truth be told, deep down I feel like it's going to work out. I just have to stop being negative and stay strong for a bit (thanks Peacemaker and Aculias). My negativity always floods my thoughts, so that's the main thing that is dragging me down.

-guitarguy
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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted March 18, 2005 05:32 PM
Edited By: Peacemaker on 18 Mar 2005

I think that guitarguy is going to have to play this by ear.  Sure, I can see where you guys are coming from when you give him advice to just let it go and stuff, but you're assuming that both he and Laura are more typical than either one of them might be.  

It's highly possible that Laura is more like Guitarguy than unlike him, and that you're misreading the whole situation here.  What you're witnessing might just be the beginning of an old-style, turn-of-the-century courtship between two traditionalists.  If you think there are not women out there who would engage in such an old-style courtship you might be surprised.

Of course, it all remains to be seen.  Guitarguy is closest to Laura and knows better how to gage her reactions to his subtle overtures better than we can.  On the other hand, Guitarguy, the guys are pointing out the importance of your remaining realistic, and as objective as possible through this situation as it develops and you continue gaging her reactions to you.  

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guitarguy
guitarguy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
posted March 21, 2005 09:15 AM

Quote:
It's highly possible that Laura is more like Guitarguy than unlike him, and that you're misreading the whole situation here.  What you're witnessing might just be the beginning of an old-style, turn-of-the-century courtship between two traditionalists.  If you think there are not women out there who would engage in such an old-style courtship you might be surprised.

I really appreciate your outlook, Peacemaker, as it is very encouraging. Yeah, it might turn out that Laura and I are very old-fashion. You don't usually see this kind of relationship in films anymore.

Quote:
the guys are pointing out the importance of your remaining realistic, and as objective as possible through this situation as it develops and you continue gaging her reactions to you.

It's very important. I'll definitely be trying to offer the best to the relationship as I can. Before Laura goes, I'll try to keep things as cool as possible, but still hopefully engaging. I always find it hard to tell how she feels about something since she's always quiet and pleasant looking. One-on-one time between us has helped, though, and I usually gauge her better during those times. I'd like that to happen at least once more before we say goodbye.

-guitarguy
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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted March 21, 2005 06:15 PM

Guitarguy,  I think I have an idea for you to avoid completely losing contact with Laura, and you may have already thought of this or decided to do it.  But if you do get to talk personally with her before she goes, you might just ask her if she would mind if you corresponded with her once she goes to college.  Tell her you value her friendship and would rather not lose touch, see what happens.

If the two of you can correspond by mail, and she is an old-fashioned sort of girl, then it may be just the speed you both want things to proceed in terms of building a relationship.  If not, then you'll probably be able to gage it depending on the correspondence you receive from her.

It must be confusing and intimidating to be surrounded by a society that just rushes ahead and blusters about and expects that sort of modus operandi from everyone.  It's starting to feel like your handling this situation as delicately as you are, really is the best way to go about it.  That doesn't mean it's going to work out necessarily of course.  But It may be giving it a better change than if you did otherwise.

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guitarguy
guitarguy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
posted March 22, 2005 09:39 AM

More about Laura and myself

Quote:
you might just ask her if she would mind if you corresponded with her once she goes to college.  Tell her you value her friendship and would rather not lose touch, see what happens.

If the two of you can correspond by mail, and she is an old-fashioned sort of girl, then it may be just the speed you both want things to proceed in terms of building a relationship.  If not, then you'll probably be able to gage it depending on the correspondence you receive from her.

I really want to keep in touch with Laura when she finally goes away, so it is definitely one of the things I'd like to ask her about before then. I've thought about it ahead of time and wondered if she'd really follow through with such correspondence. The thing is, she's not a major contact person, rarely talking on the phone unless she absolutely has to (like for school). For example, my number is in the church directory and she's able to call me whenever she wants. She has only called me once this past year or so, and it was about some church activity. Hardly for personal stuff at all. I've also given her my email address and I even sent her a message a few months ago. Rather than replying back via email, she approached me the following Sunday. It appears she doesn't use the phone or email on a regular basis, perhaps due to her level of comfort with using them. I wouldn't label this negatively, because even I am not a big phone person (I get nervous and worry about saying the wrong things while on the line). I suspect this must be the same for Laura. Emails are a different for me, however, since I generally feel a world more comfortable in writing than in speech. I think it depends largely on the person's traits and outward personality. Laura being this way doesn't make me angry or upset or anything, but it just makes things a lot less predictable on that end. Nevertheless, I'll ask her about it when the time comes.

Quote:
It must be confusing and intimidating to be surrounded by a society that just rushes ahead and blusters about and expects that sort of modus operandi from everyone.  It's starting to feel like your handling this situation as delicately as you are, really is the best way to go about it.  That doesn't mean it's going to work out necessarily of course.  But It may be giving it a better change than if you did otherwise.

My views on this aspect of society is not so heavily based on confusion as it is on slight disgust and uneasy ambivalence. Out of all the crazy relationship stuff going on out there, I feel myself being safely distant from them. On the other hand, the delicate tone of my friendship with Laura instills in me a subtle sense of longing and anticipation for more meaningful activity between the two of us. Whereas other couples get to hang out regularly during the week, I'm stuck at home or at school feeling lonely, waiting for church on Sunday. The fact that I'm subject to witnessing a whole lot of PDA around campus nearly every single day, I can't help but feel disdain for all those happy folk who appear so willing to show off their closeness to their partners in public. I'm nearly sick of it. In frustrating times like those, I feel that only Laura can set things right. She behaves so differently from other girls, and for that I'm relieved. With that in mind, my long, uneventful weeks have become more bearable.

I've spoken to my mom about this emptiness many times before (she's the only one at home who I am willing to approach). In all honestly, I am not very close to my parents, but sometimes I just need to talk. There's no other friend or person available during the week that I can speak to; I prefer to keep this crush a secret from our church friends so as not to embarrass Laura. So that usually leaves my mom (my dad's mostly useless in these kinds of discussions) and I tend to bring up my feelings a lot. My mom is not very patient, however, and she often gets tired of my constant "whining". When nothing else can be said, I'm left to express my feelings here online. Not much else is possible, save writing songs. My options are very limited, indeed. Someone might say Laura isn't worth all my trouble, but I'm stuck like super glue to her at this point. There's little else for me to turn to, as far as I know.

-guitarguy
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Valeriy
Valeriy

Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
posted March 24, 2005 11:37 AM

Hi Guitarguy and everyone. I really enjoyed reading this post and after reading Peacemaker's and Aculias' posts, I've changed my mind about how "hard" my life was. Quite a few big and painful things seems quite light in comparison with what you went through.

I've had similar love experiences, few times, and I want to offer you an alternative view on the situation, and I will do that without trying to be nice. If what you're after is sympathy and pity, you will get offended. If you are after solutions, you will find this interesting.

It is admirable to see so much beauty in someone.
It is rare to have such comitement to one person.
It is mature to have such respect for someone.

But there are a few things that you are not seeing.

It is fake to be friends and conceal your feelings - how can you call yourself friends if you don't tell each other what you feel? What kind of dream relationship is that where you can't be open with each other?

It is manipulative not to ask for what you want meanwhile secretly trying to bring it about. You want this girl to play a certain role in your life and you try to bring this about covertly with your actions without actually saying to her that this is what you want. You never asked what SHE wants.

If you really love a person, you want for that person what they want for themselves, even if that means them not having you in their life. Love is wanting her to be happy, wanting her to have what she wants, and being happy from knowing that she is happy and she has what she wants. Otherwise you're just being selfish - sad about not having your way.

Don't be offended. I think certain aspects of your approach to this situation are admirable while others are not. And most people, myself included, are guilty of being fake, manipulative and selfish. Those are common. But they should not remain unseen. And you should not be fooled that something is pure love when it is not.

I am virtually never approached by girls and had a few big crushes that I was very reluctant to let go of. Especially the last one as you can see in my PP. It seemed like a dream come true. I've never seen or experienced such connection before. I've also made positive interpretation of her not making contact with me, not being open.

What I wanted was not being offered to me by her. So I had two options - ask for it openly or try to manipulate and get it covertly. And at some point I've chosen the first option. I told her how I felt and got rejected.

Of course that was painful. But when I started thinking again, I asked myself the same question - is it love or is it selfishness? What she wants is to not have a relationship with me, that I now found out. What I want is the opposite. Loving someone is wanting them to be happy - wanting for them what they want for themselves. Then if it is love, I'd rather that she be happy by not having a relationship with me, and I'd be happy because she's happy that way. If it's selfishness, I'd be upset about not getting my own way, about not getting what I want.

And I think it was selfishness. When I didn't get my way, when I got mistreated, I got bitter and resentful inside. I wasn't happy with her having what she wants. I wanted what I want more.

It's easy to love another person when you want the same thing. Opposing wishes quickly reveal what is love and what is selfishness. But love involves knowing each others wishes. Intimacy involves openness. You can't be intimate by not saying your feelings. To give someone what they want, you must know what it is. And you can't trully know what it is without asking.

And I can tell you for sure, I've done it twice. Telling the person how I feel and asking how they feel about me, and getting rejected was less painful than the time that would have been spent longing and wondering if they like me or not. And it allowed me to let those girls have what they want, without trying to manipulate them or being manipulated by them, without being fake and secretive.

Some of the worst times I've ever felt have been when I didn't know whether my feeling is mutual - when I didn't know and when I couldn't be with whom I liked. I already felt rejected because I felt no love from the other person, and combined with that was the feeling of uncertainty, the "what if I did that or said that". And after I asked, I had the same pain of not being loved by them, but the pain of uncertainty was gone. It was easier.
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
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guitarguy
guitarguy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
posted March 24, 2005 03:00 PM
Edited By: guitarguy on 24 Mar 2005

Hi, Valeriy-- I really appreciate your sharing of thoughts and advice.

Quote:
It is fake to be friends and conceal your feelings - how can you call yourself friends if you don't tell each other what you feel? What kind of dream relationship is that where you can't be open with each other?

I've realized that I didn't really cover a whole lot of the minor things about me, namely stuff with friends and such. First of all, I tend to make friends more easily with adults than with people my age. The perfect example is my church. A huge majority of the congregation consists of elderly people, followed by middle-agers, followed by the little children, and lastly us high schoolers. I'm now a college student, but I still stay with the HS group because I've been with them throughout the past four vital years of my life. They're the only real 'friends' I have that are closest to my age. I have trouble fitting in with my own age group for some reason; it's like I don't stand out or I'm generally not too interesting a person. That's probably why I didn't have strong friends at my school; I wasn't given a chance. Maybe it's my low voice or my un-hipness. About the adults: they are very open and friendly with me. My parents tell me that I'm a little too socially mature for my age; that must be true given how well I fit in with the grown crowd. It's unfortunate because I really, really want to have friends my age. It just doesn't work every single time, to my dismay. At my church youth group, even, I sometimes appear to fade while we're gathered in large groups. It's as though the others have cooler people to talk and listen to instead. I don't like it. It's not like I can try to fix it by attempting to be more outgoing; it's just not me. An example of what I go through: we had to present Lenten studies lessons the other week and I was up first. I tried to lead the lesson, but a whole lot of the youth gang weren't paying attention and had their own off-topic conversations with one another. I tried calling them back to me by raising my voice a bit; it only worked for a short time. I admit that I probably lack that certain charismatic "presence" people look for in a speaker and presenter, but I tried my hardest that time. Other times in the past weren't too different; I'm just not as cool a youth buddy, I guess. The same thing happened when I presented an important English paper during my senior year. I counted quite a few yawns and bowed heads. Outside the classroom was the same; somewhat related to my church youth situation. If I'm alone with another person, that person will talk to me and we'll be all friendly and such. If a friend of the person walks up, they'll talk and I'll fade. It's happened too many times for me to remember. On the other hand, adults hardly ever let me down like that. With them, I get a chance to be who I am and stand successful. No faking. No charades. Just me being myself. I wish it'd be like that with people my age.

You might say my church youth friends aren't true "friends" per se because they don't always act like they are. I'd understand where you're coming from, but what I've described is just one side of the fence. When we _do_ get together and talk (me and other youth) we can have a really great time. It's acceptance like I've always wanted it to be. That is the sad thing; all that is possible, yet sometimes it doesn't work out for me. That'll mystify me for a while, but that's doesn't mean I'm giving up. I've taken modest yet honest steps to improve upon myself without going too beyond what's natural with me. I've tried to incorporate humor into conversations (an ace hidden up my sleeve) and that has worked somewhat. It's been a slow process and I know it will still take a while before I truly get accepted my age group.

That said, I'm still willing to call people in my youth group friends. About four of them qualify, to be honest. It looks like they're all I've got (for my-agers), as I haven't had any luck at the university yet. The adults I know make truly wonderful pals, but as I said before, I really delight in hanging with the younger crowd. Sadly, two of the youth I mentioned earlier in this paragraph are going to leave the state for college later this summer (Laura is one of them) and I'll have to carry on with whoever's left. I'm limited in how far I can go in these friendships and/or relationships, but I'm actually giving it my all. I alone know what I'm capable of contributing, so I've been putting out as much effort as I could.

I know that if I hold back, I'll end up a loser. I also know that if I push too hard in the wrong direction, I'll end up in just as worse a situation. That's how I often feel about my friendship with Laura. Let's stop here for a second. Laura and I don't see each other except on Sundays; under two hours every Sunday, to be exact. We go to different schools and we don't talk to each other during the week. That makes it hard for us to keep up as friends usually do; that is why I try to make the best of the weekends. If she's up for a Friday Bible study, I'll give it my all to be pleasant and above all friendly with her. And I try to say all the right words (nothing stupid). I know she still considers me a friend; that's something I can happily fall back on. As much as I wish we could jump start the friendship into even higher levels than before, it simply hasn't been possible. She's hitting down the final stretch till her graduation; that means work, work, work. This year and the last were very busy for her; prior to that, I'd always find her coming to youth events and camps. Now it's a different story: time is tight. An example: this past winter break, I offered to take her cruising at the mall if she was interested. She politely and shyly turned it down. Two weeks of break: she was piled high with homework and applications. That's solid commitment right there. As much as it pains me that she has little time for much else, I'm extremely happy and proud of her achievements. I delight in knowing that she's doing the right things- the smart things. She's the kind of friend I've always desired. In that respect, I let her go to do what is necessary. And it seems a million other people would agree. Going back to the friendship aspect: I'm dealing with the most delicate thing in my life. I value this friendship with my life, and I'd do anything to keep the equilibrium in place. Even if it means laying low for a time. After all, what's the likelyhood of me finding another girl like Laura? Soon? Probably not. So I take this delicate friendship and approach it with the utmost care. What area needs extra care? The fact that Laura is very shy. I'm quite conservative myself, so I have an honest idea about how she'd feel in many situations. I can tell from my experiences with her that she'll shy away from something if things get too quick or intense (or not to mention suggesting). That's the truth: she's that way. To push against her will with these invitations and public conversations would be quite unsatisfactory, in my opinion. She would clearly feel bad about it, regardless of my innocent intentions. If I ask for too much and too often, she'll probably back away; it doesn't even matter if we're friends or not. She's the wary type. It wouldn't necessarily mean that if I overstep then she wouldn't like me anymore as a friend, but the feeling that carries over with her into the future is what I'm fearing. I'll want to be as clean as humanly possible.

Maybe I'm taking this a bit too hysterically, but this only shows how much I love Laura. I confess, I can no longer use the word 'like' anymore because it seems too weak and insincere. My parents don't like the idea of me being only 18 and having such romantic feelings; but that's not a major concern for me. My grandparents happen to know Laura's father, who used to attend our church. The father now has to stay home on Sundays to take care of house chores while the mother is working full time, so neither of Laura's parents have gotten to come to church to observe me for themselves. I met her father on the night of our prom, but it's been a year now! There's no way they'll be able to tell if I'm really decent or not unless Laura tells them herself. My grandparents tell me that the parents are very protective and conservative; they're not likely to let Laura go out 'clubbing', even if we were the type that wanted to. Which we aren't. As you can see, this protectiveness in their family makes it harder for me to take Laura out. Perhaps a lot of Laura's studious nature comes from her folks. The limitations I'm facing are numerous, but are not totally unreasonable. That means I have to be careful about how I present myself. I will definitely try to be sociablew with Laura when we're alone, and I will do my best to respect her wishes and not embarrass her. Again, she'll be worth the pain.

Quote:
It is manipulative not to ask for what you want meanwhile secretly trying to bring it about. You want this girl to play a certain role in your life and you try to bring this about covertly with your actions without actually saying to her that this is what you want. You never asked what SHE wants.

Again, I have to watch myself. This doesn't mean I won't ask Laura about anything at all (I will most certainly try to get to know her better) but I will need to be careful about the direction I'm trying to head in. I don't think she's ready for a true relationship with me, even if she'd like that to happen in the future. I think she'd prefer that kind of thing to happen later, after college. So trying to set up the "roles" might not be right at the moment; hopefully that will come not too far in my future.

Quote:
If you really love a person, you want for that person what they want for themselves, even if that means them not having you in their life. Love is wanting her to be happy, wanting her to have what she wants, and being happy from knowing that she is happy and she has what she wants. Otherwise you're just being selfish - sad about not having your way.

---

Of course that was painful. But when I started thinking again, I asked myself the same question - is it love or is it selfishness? What she wants is to not have a relationship with me, that I now found out. What I want is the opposite. Loving someone is wanting them to be happy - wanting for them what they want for themselves. Then if it is love, I'd rather that she be happy by not having a relationship with me, and I'd be happy because she's happy that way. If it's selfishness, I'd be upset about not getting my own way, about not getting what I want.

I have already recognized this. I cannot say I like the idea about how things _could_ turn out, but should Laura tell me that I'm not for her, I wouldn't lift a finger to her. Even if it means I have to be alone for the rest of my life, I will not raise hell. This thing I call love is something I want to hold true. Therefore, I can assure the world that I will handle the future as maturely as I can.

Quote:
Don't be offended. I think certain aspects of your approach to this situation are admirable while others are not. And most people, myself included, are guilty of being fake, manipulative and selfish. Those are common. But they should not remain unseen. And you should not be fooled that something is pure love when it is not.

This is a bit much, but I'll go ahead with a quick gist. I often think about the future and what things would be like if Laura and I were together. I look at many families (mine, certainly) and observe many of the mistakes the married couples make. I don't agree with a lot of things I see, particularly in the husbands, to the point which I'd never wish Laura would have to go through any of it. I've got a few plans for how I can further mature myself for her. I also know that my patience will help me to succeed where others (my dad being the prime example) have ultimately failed. I'm trying to harden my soul for anything, should my future shine favorably on me. Keep in mind, that I do realize this is just a dream of mine, but I do look ahead a lot of things that could be headed should this relationship become reality.

Quote:
It's easy to love another person when you want the same thing. Opposing wishes quickly reveal what is love and what is selfishness. But love involves knowing each others wishes. Intimacy involves openness. You can't be intimate by not saying your feelings. To give someone what they want, you must know what it is. And you can't trully know what it is without asking.

I strongly agree with this. Sharing these feelings will come later, hopefully, even if I have to wait a long time. When the time is ripe, however, you can trust that I won't rest on my laurels.

Quote:
Some of the worst times I've ever felt have been when I didn't know whether my feeling is mutual - when I didn't know and when I couldn't be with whom I liked. I already felt rejected because I felt no love from the other person, and combined with that was the feeling of uncertainty, the "what if I did that or said that". And after I asked, I had the same pain of not being loved by them, but the pain of uncertainty was gone. It was easier.

This is true. The mutual aspect is very important, as you say. There's one bit that I haven't shared too much about that may well be the strongest tie between Laura and myself. We're both Christians, and we follow the same walk, so we're likely to understand each other better through our experiences together. I wish I could elaborate on this more, but I won't. But I am feeling better about my situation with her, having said all this. I hope my cases were understandable. I can't thank you enough for this opportunity to express myself.

-guitarguy
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Shadowcaster
Shadowcaster


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Supreme Hero
Shaded Scribe
posted March 24, 2005 08:15 PM
Edited By: Shadowcaster on 24 Mar 2005

An Update...

The week before Spring Break passed slowly, perhaps more slowly than any other week has this year, and all the depression and stress that I linked with Waco nearly drove me to tears as I trudged along, hoping that my break would soon arrive. The fact that I had little to do that week in terms of schoolwork and such to keep me distracted only served to lengthen the week, and I simply shelled up until Friday, when my escape presented itself. The week at home did me some good, but it led to a destructive way of thinking as far as my relationship with Michelle was concerned.

Once home, I resolved to adopt a mindset of nonchalance which would allow me to forget for the week about Michelle and Waco, about that life from which I so desperately needed shelter at that moment. Instead of forgetting, I stopped caring, and was on the verge of simply letting her go to Trent, another good friend of hers that I viewed as competition for her heart, even though that was not necessarily so. I drove back up to Waco in a strange mood of indifference, even driving myself to tears for no apparent reason other than that I perhaps wished I could relate to Michelle as Trent did, for he knew the family that had lost a father as well, but in the end, it was only acting. I stood on the edge of a knife, nearly letting all my notions of romance once again fall to the wayside.

At this point, I was jealous for the heart of she who I had recently resolved to let go, and I was near the point of hating this other boy, who I did not even know. It was a dangerous Monday, and I needed a change. Looking back, I think that I was holding off until Tuesday to make my decision, but Tuesday brought about no change, yet still I clung onto my fleeting hope that I was wrong. After all, I had been wrong about this before, and it had cost me dearly. I would not act as rashly as I had with Emily, I resolved, and so I waited on.

Wednesday saw the visitation of the President and the leaders of both Mexico and Canada, and the college was in a dazed stupor that such an important meeting was taking place just down the road from where I lived. The roads were barred, sidewalks were sealed off, and classes were skipped en masse as students gathered on the steps across the street from the meeting place in hopes of getting on TV. I was not one of them; I didn't even care, for my mind was elsewhere. Easter was fast approaching, and with it, another retreat from Waco. I hoped it would not again come down to that, and I took action.

One edited squirrel picture later, I was calmed (for more info, my xanga is in my PP, if anyone is curious about what the heck I'm talking about ), and I realized that, while Michelle and I were not going anywhere as far as romantic endeavors were concerned at this point in time, our friendship was growing. I had resolved earlier just to be her friend, but up until yesterday, I did not view her as such. In all honesty, Michelle was a target. What Val said about selfishness and love really struck me, and it affirms that I chose the right path in my eyes. I'll just have to see whether or not things will work out, but I've earned a valuable friend, even if they don't.

All I can do is wait, but I don't mind. It's worth it either way.
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guitarguy
guitarguy


Responsible
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Rockoon.
posted April 01, 2005 04:07 PM
Edited By: guitarguy on 1 Apr 2005

Comments and Update

Quote:
All I can do is wait, but I don't mind. It's worth it either way.

Yep, Shadowcaster, it seems we're playing in the same ballpark. Our situations are parallel in some cases, such as the periods of desperation. I'm also trying to find ways to make me stronger. Half the battle will be finding distractions and other preoccupations to take away from bugging thoughts. At the same time, I do hope things improve for you.

Update:
Well, Laura got back a week ago and I saw her on Sunday. Sad as it was, I was so shy and nervous about going up to her and saying hello after those three long weeks. Plus, her sister was hanging around, so I didn't want to aggravate the comfort level in any way. So I avoided her until after the Easter service was over, when I found her chatting on the side with another youth. I stepped up, greeted both of them, and tried to fit in with the conversation. After a few minutes the other person left, and I was free to talk with Laura for a bit. I asked her about her trip; she said Canada was very cold and she got to make snow angels. In response, I told her that I'd really like to go to a place with snow, but I never had a chance to yet. We went on to talk about fourth quarter school stuff, responsibilities and the like. She asked about how Bible study went; I filled her in on how I felt about it. This all went on for about three minutes, when her sister motioned that her father had arrived to take them home. I told Laura I'd see her later (like I always do), but in my mind I knew I was more serious than ever this time. I was quite a lonely during those three weeks without her, so I'll reach for almost any opportunity to "rejuvinate" myself. Tuesday night, at music practice, my youth leader told me that quite a few of the youth won't be attending this Friday's fellowship event. He went on to say, however, that Laura will probably be there. I'm excited now; I must go and present myself as best as possible. After all, these Friday nighters are only scheduled on two Fridays per month. I have to make the most of what I'm getting.

Even though I'm probably going to see Laura in fourteen hours or so, I am still concerned about the near future. The weeks will be especially long this month, thanks to two massive English papers and an inevitable Biology midterm. All that work is a problem especially since I'm having the toughest time studying while Laura is on my mind. I've got to break out of this somehow; I can't go around like this forever. April will not be as secluded and unforgiving as March had been, but I'm preparing for a testy ride (edit: no pun intended).

-guitarguy
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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted April 02, 2005 12:26 AM

Quote:
I'm preparing for a testy ride.



*giggle*
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guitarguy
guitarguy


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Rockoon.
posted April 10, 2005 11:00 AM
Edited By: guitarguy on 10 Apr 2005

Disappointments, dreams, and more

This month could be harsher than I thought. Laura couldn't make it to last Friday's event because of major schoolwork, so it was just me and two adult leaders. That made for a very lousy evening. But things didn't improve by Sunday. Laura and I only nodded once in passing, but nothing else happened between the two of us during that morning. Worse yet, I heard that she'll be gone for about a week this month on her senior class trip. That means I cannot expect to see her at next week's study session. I felt pretty bad about all this when I got home that afternoon, but I eventually got absorbed in the busy week and the extreme feelings died down somewhat.

And then I had three dreams about Laura: one on Thursday, another on Friday, and yet another one this morning. The latter two are a bit hazy in my mind, but Thursday's one was quite clear to me. It was about me being at a relatively empty church service; Laura was there, as well. She was walking around, but she didn't seem to notice me standing there. She looked really nice and I wanted to reach out and get her attention so badly, but I felt restrained from doing anything. That's all I remember of that dream. These dreams hurt deep down, but I know they aren't reality. In fact, I think I'm developing a small obsession with these kinds of dreams about Laura. In my opinion, dreams like these make my longing for her stronger and truer. I'm dangerously close to saying that I enjoy the pain, in this case. It's crazy, I know.

After April, my chances of seeing her will drop considerably. That is, until after she graduates. That leaves the question about when she's leaving for the mainland. Those weeks will be unbelievably painful, summer vacation or no.

Dunno if I'll see her tomorrow. I guess now's the time to steel myself up.

Sunday Afternoon Edit: She came, but I didn't have a moment.

-guitarguy
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Shadowcaster
Shadowcaster


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Shaded Scribe
posted April 11, 2005 01:24 AM

And so it ends...

When last we left Michelle and I, my resolve to pursue her translated into my halfway pursuance of a frienship that only served to hold me away from putting myself in danger of heartbreak, and, looking back, I'm glad it ended there. Turns out there was someone else after all, but the ever-increasing amount of evidence did not phase my dedication to my goal, even though I knew in my heart that I would fail. Today, at church, she brought the boy and the deal was sealed. I would not get my way this time around.

I was crushed as I left church, and I put on my brave face at lunch, but you can never fool a friend of 18 years,  and this friend offered to talk later on that day once I had had time to think it over. I left and went back to my dorm, fuming all the way, trying to think of ways to get back at this "interloper", when it was actually he that made to move in the first place, not I. It took 90 minutes of talking with my good friend before I came to a solution. I would be upfront with her, no matter which outcome it heralded. Of course I had doubts, but I wanted this resolved now, and it was all up to me to decide.

Eventually, I got up the courage to combat the rotten feeling inside of me that lingered, and I IMed Michelle after much convincing of myself. She was away, I thought that was for the best, as I could say all I needed to say at once, without interruption. I asked her about the boy, told her I liked her as well, and apologized for being so mysterious all the time. She came on just as I finished typing and affirmed my fears, that she and the boy were approaching that point of dating, but I took the news surprisingly well due to my lingering tug that had warned me of it so many times before. It was, to be sure, a tense conversation as I waded through the past and explained to Michelle what I had done over the past few months. I wanted desperately to ask if she had liked me back at all, but I instead substituted the question that my curiosity may have sullied the answer to and asked her whether we would still be friends. Apparently, honesty works wonders.

She said of course we would stay friends, and that she enjoyed talking to me, and all at once a great weight was lifted from my heart. I found myself blessing her impending relationship in my mind, something I would never have envisioned myself doing just 4 hours before, and she invited me to dinner sometime with a bunch of friends. We also agreed to exchange music sometime, as we had both just recently discovered that we both love music. Normally, I'd have taken this increased similarity between our interests as a sign that I should pursue her all the more vigorously, but looking back, I'm glad that I didn't. It may sound strange, but I value her more now than I ever have before, and without the price of heartache to boot. My downward spiral has leveled out and is now rising, a small price to pay for the sacrifice of a failed relationship, I say.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
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statue-loving necrophiliac
posted April 11, 2005 04:15 AM

One never stops wondering at the new things he discovers. This time, in this thread, for me it was how some people manage to unite the ideas about church and romance.
I for one, had i been a believer, would have felt bit "filthy", if i got an erection in church with that laura girl around.

seriously, though, i really wanted to write something in this thread, beside being the annoying one commenting on others confesions, but I have never really felt especially downhill. I've had lots of fights with my old folks; also with my sister in the past (once i used not to speak with her at all for months even!), friends (more or less), but I never felt downhill so to say. I think I'm growing an unhealthy emotional carpace for all kinds of depressing emotions. The most negative feelings i could get are apathy and loneliness, but nothing worse than that.
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guitarguy
guitarguy


Responsible
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Rockoon.
posted April 11, 2005 02:19 PM bonus applied.

Shadowcaster--
I am sorry to hear that the relationship didn't work out as you hoped. I would feel crushed beyond belief as well, had I gone through the same thing. I'm glad, however, to hear that your friend Michelle agreed to stay friends with you and keep in touch. In my situation, I hope Laura would agree to do the same, if it ever happened to me. So seeing as the two of you are still on good terms, I wish you the best in the future.

Svarog--
Quote:
One never stops wondering at the new things he discovers. This time, in this thread, for me it was how some people manage to unite the ideas about church and romance.
I for one, had i been a believer, would have felt bit "filthy", if i got an erection in church with that laura girl around.

I know I explained about the sex stuff several posts ago, but I will conclude about it here. Just spending time with Laura (alone, chatting) is a major turn-on for me. No other experience I have been through can truly match up to the happiness I feel when we're sharing a pleasant moment together. By saying I'm not basing this whole relationship on sex, I'm not jumping to the conclusion that sex is bad or hardly worth it. With Laura in mind, I honestly believe it would be absolutely wonderful and nothing less.

Quote:
seriously, though, i really wanted to write something in this thread, beside being the annoying one commenting on others confesions, but I have never really felt especially downhill. I've had lots of fights with my old folks; also with my sister in the past (once i used not to speak with her at all for months even!), friends (more or less), but I never felt downhill so to say. I think I'm growing an unhealthy emotional carpace for all kinds of depressing emotions. The most negative feelings i could get are apathy and loneliness, but nothing worse than that.

It's nice to know you aren't going through downhill times. Perhaps you deal with loneliness and depression better than others can. Still, I can relate with your position of not being on the best terms with parents. In fact, I'm going shift gears and talk about that. Please comment on it, if you will.

---

Downhill Times (Part 2)

I noticed this around the minute I left church today. I've thought long and hard about this before, but I never really considered this in full as a Downhill Times topic: Since I will have to endure excruciatingly long periods without Laura, I'm going to have to find a way to make peace with myself while I am at home. And, perhaps, moreso with my family. I mentioned a little about my mom, but not about the others I left out of the picture. Now I figure this area needs a whole run-through so as to get some nagging details out of my system.

[My Mom's Side]
I live with my parents and sister along with my maternal grandparents. My grandparents on my mother's side were the ones who had me attend church in the first place. Well, now that I think of it, it was actually my grandmother who stressed it. My grandfather, while a churchgoer, has some very negative flaws hailing from his upbringing that affects both the family as well as myself. The youngest child in his family, my grandfather was allegedly spoiled rotten by his folks. He wasn't raised with reasonable discipline that everyone else has; one small example is that he, to this day, refuses to eat green vegetables. You'd see his lack of manners when he scoops aside the veggies at a banquet or party. My grandfather is also adverse about accepting corrections he doesn't agree with. He often goes into a sour tantrum phase when people inside the family (such as my grandmother) try to reason with him on anything from taxes to baseball games. To add to that, he lacks a lot of patience. Like I said before, if he sees someone doing something he doesn't like, he'll sigh violently, grumble to himself, and then walk upstairs to his room. It's an unquestionably childish scene; I happen to witness it a lot (if not every day). My grandmother, on the other hand, had a more decent upbringing and I can really see it in her. I don't really have any real gripes about her, although she does annoy me from time to time. That's only because she is a little old-fashioned and likes to nag me a lot (I'm not always patient with her because of this, but I really do realize that it's a trivial problem of mine). I actually owe a lot to my grandmother since she got me into church in the first place, among other helpful things. She also tends to uphold Christian values more overtly than any other of my kin. Unlike my grandfather, she has a definite positive impact on my life. I wish I'd have the guts to tell her myself that I appreciate what she has done. I'd wish the same for my grandfather, but I'm afraid he's hopelessly lost in his own world of thinking.

When I was young, I was always very close to my mother. She made better company than my father, in my opinion. As I grew older, however, I started to see things in her that stood out as very negative. As with my grandfather, my mom doesn't have a lot of patience. She tries to be patient, but I think she can only go so far before it wears thin (that happens very quickly). My mom can become very sharp and tempermental when she gets upset. Her whole mood practically changes for the worst. You can see her eyes red with tears and she's barking angrily through bitterly clenched teeth. I remember getting truly afraid when she used to get this mad when I was younger. Speaking of which, she used to either pinch me or give me a mean slap across the face. She still gets that way at present, but not so much on me as with my younger sister. Still, as with my grandfather's behavior, I find this to be very unpleasant and to some extent ... extreme. By saying all this, I do not mean that she's like this every single minute of the day; it's only when she gets REALLY ticked. Fortunately, many weeks and months can go by without any of her fits going off. This saddens me. My mom gets this upset when she gets stressed, and sometimes feels like all odds are against her. She's not the religious type; she simply won't go to church or try my faith-related advice. I'm a little sore because I'm only trying to help her by opening the possibility of finding her new comfort for her own good. Nevertheless, she remains unmoved by my my advice and continues to get upset over stress as she does. I wish I could make a difference to her somehow.

[My Dad's Side]
My father's family has an interesting background, in a most disturbing sense. To make a very long story short, I'll just talk about what applies to him. This side of the family is very antisocial, with some very weird traits. My grandfather on my father's side is a very stoic, impatient man. He was very strict with my dad and his family, particularly with my grandmother. This grandmother was and still is very weak in maintaining her own authority in the family. When her husband bossed her around, she took the very Oriental approach by not defending herself. It turns out that my grandmother got stepped on all the time by my impatient grandfather; my mom knows some stories about it. When she was dating my dad, they were up at his place while his parents were home. My dad's mother happened to spill a container of salt on the kitchen floor, and my mom heard my grandfather cursing like crazy, calling my grandmother incompetent, among other fiendishly derogatory names. My mom was disturbed by it, just as I am now by hearing of it. Yet, the worst was to come. After my parents got married and had my sister and I, my dad started showing traits similar to those his own parents exhibited. He became very impatient with us kids, getting sore when we dropped our plates, spilled our ice cream, etc. He was also becoming impatient with my mom's folks; that still goes on to this day. Of course, my mom prevailed where my paternal grandmother didn't: she got on the defensive and attempted to get my dad to mend on his gruff lack of patience. My dad, then taking on his mother's traits, would quiet down and not lift a finger to my mom. It still goes this way; my dad has to give way for my mom's sense of "superiority" when he starts to get out of hand. Of course, my dad never really improved on his quick temper. My mom lectured him on countless nights in the past about being gentle with my sister and I while we were growing up, but none of that seemed to sink in. I can expect the same patterns to occur over and over again, it looks like. Religion means little to my father, and his occupation makes things worse. He does engineering work at the Pearl Harbor Naval Base, and picks up a lot of foul language and takes it home. This is another hard case to deal with, especially since he'll refuse to listen.

My mom is more willing to talk with me about my troubles. Through this, I have learned a lot about our family and all the odds and ends that make it up. She confessed that this marriage of hers is largely imperfect; my dad is not exactly the 'right' person in life that she was looking for. On this note, it tends to show quite clearly every day. My mom and dad aren't very close to each other. They don't argue all the time, but neither do they have any tender moments at all. My dad will occasionally hug or kiss my mom, but she never looks into it. In the full picture of things, there is very little love to be seen. I'm not saying that the love isn't there at all, but it is very, very hard to express meaningfully. We don't have dinner as a family in one room; my dad will go to the TV room instead. And he'll stay there while my mom is stuck with washing the dishes (she really resents that). I'd list them all, but there'd be no point. It's just frustrating in an unearthly sense that I have to put up with all this crap every day.

So now I've given you all a big picture of what my home life is like right now. It's a lot mellower here in person, but these things can still go on. Not mellow enough to breathe comfortably, I might add. I'd like everyone (outside the family) to know that I take this stance very seriously and I will do my best NOT to become like my various parents and grandparents before me. I refuse to live those lives of negativity. At the same time, though, the lack of tangible peace around the house is very unsettling. I would really like assistance in getting through this. I hope you can see why I value Laura so much. She is my escape from all that I go through, and she helps to bring me peace. With her, I tend to think more positively about my troubles, if I don't forget them outright. To not see her for long periods drags me down into the pit each time, and at least it's now known what that pit is like. If anyone can offer solace or words of advice, I'll be willing to listen. Thanks for reading.

-guitarguy
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