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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Necropolis power deficiency !
Thread: Necropolis power deficiency ! This thread is 23 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 19 20 21 22 23 · «PREV / NEXT»
Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted April 16, 2008 01:30 PM
Edited by Cleave at 13:34, 16 Apr 2008.

I don't know if you can mod the Pillar of Bones but that's a good idea.

Quote:
And btw cleave.U right they have imune to almost dark magic spell,but you cannot fight against noumber.With gating he almost double his noumber,and the demons have a good atack.Humans have a good atack and defence.Elves have a good defence.etc.And dont forget,undead have the worst creature lvl 6 and lvl 7.


My point is that you can fight against numbers when numbers are on your side. I agree that undead Dragons are a joke but you'll get a lot more tier 7 creatures than your opponent.

Now when thinking about Inferno vs Necropolis, it's important to take into account the fact that Gating is rarely instant. That makes a huge difference. IMO it all depends on the ATB. If after Mana Drain the Necromancer is left with enough mana to cast PM on Firehounds then the Demonlord is in deep trouble. Light Magic is quite rare for a Demonlord, nevertheless Vampirism could turn the tables a bit but it would be wasting an action and it won't be such a huge boost (your undead army is immune to life drain and the stack affected by Vampirism will lose all Morale bonuses).

So it can be pretty tight but the game is so complex that it is very hard to predict what will happen.

I had a hotseat game with a friend, I played Sylvan, he played Necropolis. I took my time to get the Power of Dragons set but meanwhile he managed to convert the population of two other cities before our final fight. I had 30 Emerald Dragons, 600 War Dancers, 120 Arcane Archers (I don't remember the rest). He had really huge stacks (I remember something like 150 Archliches, 80 wraiths, 700 spectres and more than 200 Vampire Lords and other stacks). Anyway I had picked my favourite enemies and I thought it would be tight but that I would prevail and I did until he started casting. Frenzy on War Dancers... That hurts and it can't be cleansed. With Expert Dark it was really horrible. Mass Confusion... My Arcane Archers only got one shot. And I didn't have Magical Immunity. Without the numbers I could have won because Sylvan creatures are faster and deal more damage but facing really huge stacks I never had a chance (although Word of Light took its toll). If I had Imbue Ballista and Destructive things might have been different though.

So I believe that trying to get as many creatures as possible and focusing on Dark Magic are necessities for Necromancers.
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zamrai
zamrai


Adventuring Hero
Moonlight Melody
posted April 16, 2008 01:45 PM
Edited by zamrai at 13:48, 16 Apr 2008.

Ouch!
You gave necro perfect situation - to much time for taking other towns and convert the creatures. In this case even balista and destructive would not change a lot.

People tell that necro has advantage early-mid game but like we se, on many-towns maps it could be deadly to give him time for all this.

edit: hm, so necro can be overpowered - good news is that he only can when we let him to be

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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted April 16, 2008 02:37 PM

Quote:
You gave necro perfect situation - to much time for taking other towns and convert the creatures.


I know, I wanted Power of Dragons so badly... And I believed I would crush him no matter what (with favoured enemies and the rest). So much for Sylvan's overconfidence.
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zamrai
zamrai


Adventuring Hero
Moonlight Melody
posted April 19, 2008 01:21 AM
Edited by zamrai at 10:00, 19 Apr 2008.

I've just checked some strategy for Necro that works fine - try to check it by yourselves (if you haven't yet)

Map was Two Coast - I like this map and is not an easy one: two (or even three) different ways to get to the enemy and near the underground escape is teleport leading just next to town so it is easy to make a surprise

Hero: Naadir
he starts with two useful skills: Dark and Summoning magic and his special is creating ghosts from defeated enemies what is very useful at creeping (more units to cover shooters) - and it can do some mess lategame (imagine killing some weak stack standing just next to enemy shooters - no need for blinding shooters )
Skills:
It is a rush (we do not plan to give enemy more than 5 weeks) so concentrate on few most important skills
MotN - absolutely necessary
Expert Dark Magic -> master of mind, curses, pain
Expert Summoning Magic -> master of life, conjuration
Expert Sorcery (later -> arcane training, erratic mana)

Main idea was to get so much advantage it is only possible by week 4 and rush. To do that we play like this:

-1st day (on hard) we recruit secondary hero from tavern giving all units to Naadir and upg skeletons to archers, zombies in 1,1,1,1,1,x stacks to cover them (usual and known procedure)
one skelly should be warrior standing next to archers to cover them against shooters
* secondary hero goes looking for resources while the main goes creeping
* w DO take exp from chests because Necro has no problem with money and we have to level-up fast
- 2nd day we start building magic guild to level 3, later we get vampires and if possible upgrade them, after that magic guild levels 4 and 5. There is no sense building all 5 levels of MG if our hero has not proper skills yet - better let vampires grow. However, if we managed to get expert dark or summ by that time we can build all 5 levels first

- by week 2 we should return to town to learn spells and recruit new army which is skel archers, zombies/ghosts, vampire lords
* now we should be able to get the rest of mines, carefully raising our vampires from dead (trying not to lose any) and/or using our high-level spells
* decay is easy to learn but very useful if you get master of pain (mass effect)-cast it and try to make your army survive (stacks 1-1-1-1-1-1 should give you some turns)
* all the time care about your points of mana using MotN on enemies with the most HP or your vampires.

- week 3 you probably have exp magics so go back to castle and learn 4-5 level spells if you hadn't yet.
* some people says that summoning magic is only useful when conjure phoenix appears but this is not true. This magic will play very serious supportive role at creeping. With conjure phoenix you can take over any neutral stack or dragon utopia but arcane armor is also useful (during final, against some sort of enemies, even more e.g against dungeon who can kill your phoenix by one spell)
* during final battle very useful will be also frenzy/puppet master (choice depends on situation) and curse of netherworld can do nice damage(15 lvl ~300-400 per stack)
* we do not build tier 7 that's obvious, liches and wraiths are enough (make use of wraith's ability "harm touch" attacking enemy's tier 7)
* before the end upgrade skelly archers to warriors

- lot of maps have dragon utopias so visit one about week 3-4, that should give you a lot for a final battle. Here is idea for taking any dragon utopia with (almost) no loses if you didn't get conjure phoenix in your MG (with it there is no problem). Battle only with vampires (probably you have them at least 50 by now), put them in the corner so only one dragon stack could attack you and give them arcane armor. On the every dragon stack, one by one as they come to you, cast MotN so you wouldn't get out of mana. Vampires are perfect for this because they have no retailation and they regenerate. On this map (two coast) I took over 3 dragon utopias -in a row- while going to enemy with no loses and no well visiting (MotN)
*with it final battle should be yours:
There are several ways for final battle - it all depends on your enemy.
I usually do this:
1 - cast frenzy/puppet master on the biggest damage dealer whom turn will appear soon (frenzy is even better if the stack didn't move yet)
2 - cast arcane armor on vampires and fly to shooters (later raise them carefully), against no-strong-offensive-magic hero good is to conjure phoenix, instead.
3 - raising vampires or castin mass curses (decay, slow, weakness)
remember about the MotN!
there is no universal recipe, summoning + dark necro is very flexible.

This post shows nothing new, it is more like my idea based on many advices I read here and there. Gathering all of this in one strategy - I think it might be useful for some.

note: I was writing this in the middle of the night so excuse me some language mistakes - I've just corrected the worst
Wish you nice game!

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Rebirth aanytime now..
posted April 19, 2008 02:03 AM

Seems like you did some good job there
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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted April 19, 2008 10:12 AM

Well done indeed, although (just to be picking) you won't get three dragon utopias on every maps.

Dark Magic rules!
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zamrai
zamrai


Adventuring Hero
Moonlight Melody
posted April 19, 2008 10:27 AM
Edited by zamrai at 10:50, 19 Apr 2008.

Thank you guys.

Quote:
you won't get three dragon utopias on every maps.


Yeah, you're right - but I never rely on artifacts, this is not a clue in this strategy. One utopia is enough or even without it there are plenty of other well defended vaults and artifacts. Picking them early, thanks to summoning, gives nice advantage anyway

Key is to have Expert dark and Summoning early and at the time of final battle making a good use of them. Artifacts are just supportive.

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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted April 19, 2008 11:21 AM

Quote:
Key is to have Expert dark and Summoning early


These skills are useless without the right spells. By taking three Utopias you had more chances to get useful (and powerful) spells.

Sometimes you get the least useful spells in your town. What if a Necromancer has Blindness and Curse of the Netherworld and Arcane Armour instead of Conjure Phoenix? It wouldn't be that effective.

In my last try with Haven I had Enlightenment, Expert Dark and Expert Light early on I quickly built my level 5 guild only to find that out I had Curse of the Netherworld and Word of Light. That hurts a lot.

What I mean is that it's impossible to rely on one spell because you may not get it. 50% is a bit of a gamble.

Still I didn't mean to rant, with the right spells Dark + Summoning are quite scary.
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zamrai
zamrai


Adventuring Hero
Moonlight Melody
posted April 19, 2008 01:09 PM

You're right, this could be a serious problem but not with Necro strat I think. If it comes to dark and summoning magic I found all of the 4, 5 lvl spells useful.

Summoning, lvl 5:
Arcane armor is not worse than Phoenix, for hero battles sometimes it's even better (enemy with strong destructive)
Phoenix - I found it useful especially against might heroes, in other cases usually better is arcane armor
You can easly take dragon utopia with any of this spells and then you can get another one but this is not a must.

Dark, lvl 4: Frenzy, Blindness
Dark, lvl 5: CoN, Puppet Master

For first spell at combat good to cast either Frenzy or PM - if you did not get Frenzy in MG I think PM will be available - use is similar
If happened that there will be neither Frenzy nor PM there is Blindness for sure - not so good but it can make some troublesome units harmless as well and then you got also CoN which is good spell.

I think that there is no 'lack of proper spells' problem with Necro. Ones are better, other less, but all are useful. This is how I see that.


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Drunk_Lord
Drunk_Lord


Known Hero
very happy hero :)
posted April 20, 2008 08:44 PM

Yes, necro makes fairly good use of all spells. Although they're not a pure magic faction, but something more. A hybrid. Well, u shouldn't rely on one spell. A good player should always adapt to the circumistances.
Vs inferno and stronghold dark is with high priority, because these factions are vurnable to dark magic. Blindness, mass slow and phoenix are the very good vs these factions. If not phoenix u get arcane armor, also a very useful spell. Use it on vampires and u get pretty durable creature because of life drain and the necromancer's defense. Weakness and suffering again will help versus inferno and stronghold.
Vs faction which use light magic(academy, haven and sylvan, oh almost forgot fortress ) summoning might be better. Sylvan, haven and fortress will be easier attacked early with magic. Those two factions have slower development, so in the most cases they won't have light if u rush them, or attack the in midgame(more likely to have light then). So dark magic finds it's use here. Summoning as well. Summon a phoenix or arcane armor one of ur key creatures. And weaken the enemy with dark. As usual suffering weakness, slow, blah-blah-blah...
Vs academy things are much worse. Academy can handle enemy magic. Better attack early with summoning and frenzy\pm. Here the phoenix will help more then armor. Frenzy and PM are nice because the wizard can't mirror in to ur own creatures(these spells don't affect undead). Do not lose time, or u'll find urself face things like swift minded counterspell with skyrocket mana, magic mirror, motw + stuff, mini arties...
Vs destructive-users(sylvan, dungeon, academy and fortress) about sylvan and academy all remains the same. About dungeon it maybe necro's worst enemy. Stuff like phoenix won't help. Arcane armor might help, but I still find it easy to blast necro's creatures even when arcane armored. Well, maybe CotN will help if combined with sorcery(distract(better)\counterspell). Or use frenzy or PM and self-blast him, like many people say. But I think it's crap the warlock will probably go for magic skills and the only might skill will be defense.
Fortress. Rush them. Curse them. If fortress player fo destructive it's easy, his spells won't be that dangerous.
that's the end of all nonsense. g'night
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zamrai
zamrai


Adventuring Hero
Moonlight Melody
posted April 20, 2008 09:13 PM

Well written, this is how necro should do.
That's why I still like this faction although they were crippled.
This is probably the most strategy dependent faction - with no proper hero and strat the are just weak.

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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted April 20, 2008 10:39 PM

Quote:
Well, maybe CotN will help if combined with sorcery(distract(better)\counterspell).


Counterspell vs Dungeon is a bad bad idea (don't forget about Shadow Matriarches).

Dark Magic won't help against Black Dragons.

Quote:
If fortress player fo destructive it's easy, his spells won't be that dangerous.


A Runemage won't be as dangerous as a Warlock but with the right stacks and some elemental immunities runes, Armaggedon is a possibility. With 30 points in Spellpower it packs quite some heat (and the ring of the unrepentant is of no use in that case).
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 20, 2008 10:46 PM

Counterspell vs. dungeon is an excellent idea.. assuming you know what you're doing.

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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted April 21, 2008 12:44 AM

Quote:
Counterspell vs. dungeon is an excellent idea.. assuming you know what you're doing.


Or assuming your opponent doesn't know what he/she is doing.
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zamrai
zamrai


Adventuring Hero
Moonlight Melody
posted April 21, 2008 08:44 AM

Imo counterspell is to risky and not reliable.
-First one must make sure that will be able to quick kill/neutralize all the witches (or PM for at least 2 turns but we lose chance to block first spell anyway). So there is one option: kill them before their move what is not so easy and I wouldn't count on that.

And the biggest disadvantage:
Counterspelling we lose chance to cast our spells what is crucial playing necro cuz necro army without raising and weakening enemy won't be able to deal with very offensive dungeon army. And our hero's magic talents will be useles what is crazy idea imo.
And one more thing - Necro doesn't have much mana so he will be able to counterspell 2-3 spells while Dungeon army with very high attack smash them into dust.

Necro is still able to win with Dungeon even without disturbing destruction magic. I would rather cast arcane armor on vampires what DO make them very durable and well regenerating unit and fly to witches and shooters. This cause the big mess because all the warlock attention must be focused on vampires giving the rest of the army free hand. And even if not - vampires being attacked only by army will survive well a lot of turns without many loss (life drain). And necro will be able to use his dark magic talents - you know what that means I saw that a lot of times - this is better way against Dungeon, I believe.

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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted April 21, 2008 01:16 PM

Quote:
I would rather cast arcane armor on vampires what DO make them very durable and well regenerating unit and fly to witches and shooters.


Mass Confusion will disable all enemy shooters and prevent other troops (except Black Dragons) from retaliating against your own troops.

By the way Assassins are a joke for the undead since the poison won't work. Shadow Witches and Matriarchs are a much bigger threat.

Watch out for Blood Sisters and Raiders they won't last long but they are very offensive. It's a good idea to cast PM or Frenzy on them.

If the Warlock relies on a defensive formation with the Hydras protecting the shooters then it's Christmas! PM or Frenzy on the Hydras will block the shooters and prevent them from shooting and damage them as well.

The larger the army the better undead troops will resist the array of Destructive spells that the Warlock will have at his disposal. Early on it's rather tricky (although it might help at that point, fat chance for getting Counterspell that early).
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DarkShadow
DarkShadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted April 21, 2008 02:32 PM

If you get rushed you should take whatever skeleton warriors,zombies and revenants you have.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 21, 2008 04:18 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 16:19, 21 Apr 2008.

Quote:
Imo counterspell is to risky and not reliable.
-First one must make sure that will be able to quick kill/neutralize all the witches (or PM for at least 2 turns but we lose chance to block first spell anyway). So there is one option: kill them before their move what is not so easy and I wouldn't count on that.


Warlocks don't have durable forces. You can use Vampire princes to disable the witches, for instance. Slowing them with liches also works. Your liches should kill any single stacks of 1 witch, if any. The main stack is your main target. With proper planning, you will stop like 80% of the destructive spells, which gives you a fair chance of winning.

Quote:
Counterspelling we lose chance to cast our spells what is crucial playing necro cuz necro army without raising and weakening enemy won't be able to deal with very offensive dungeon army.


If you paid enough attention to necromancy, shrine of netherworlds and such you should have a superior army. Warlock is offensive, necro is defensive so the ATT-DEF is about even, that's where numbers kick in. If you can prevent him from casting, you can win. You don't need spells for that. The liches can slow the crucial stacks while your hero is busy counterspelling. From there, all you really have to do is to use your numbers before your necromancer runs out of mana.  

Quote:
And our hero's magic talents will be useles what is crazy idea imo.

If you won't prevent the warlock from casting, you will be washed away. In this matchup, his magic talents prove superior most of the time. Sacrificing yours for his is a fair deal.

Quote:
And one more thing - Necro doesn't have much mana so he will be able to counterspell 2-3 spells while Dungeon army with very high attack smash them into dust.


on rich map mana is not a problem. Necro is one of the best creepers, you can quickly clear utopias and other crucial places, no problem, and since you're pretty unlikely to get dragons, you can spend the money you'd normally spend on tier7 building+upgrade on knowledge artifacts from merchants. Getting intelligence isn't a problem too, necros enjoy easy enlightenment.

Quote:
Necro is still able to win with Dungeon even without disturbing destruction magic.


If you rush with CoTN and superior numbers, yes. Otherwise, not really, not unless you've converted like 4 castles in your shrine into undead.

Quote:
I would rather cast arcane armor on vampires what DO make them very durable and well regenerating unit and fly to witches and shooters. This cause the big mess because all the warlock attention must be focused on vampires giving the rest of the army free hand.


In case you haven't noticed yet, vampires do pitiful damage. They are not intimidating enough to force the warlock to change his plans of showering your clustered army away.
Furthermore, warlocks often aim for swift mind, which means the vampires will get showered before they can even act, along with 75% of your army.


Quote:
And even if not - vampires being attacked only by army will survive well a lot of turns without many loss (life drain). And necro will be able to use his dark magic talents - you know what that means


No. I never lost a long game versus a necromancer not going for counterspell No trick can really stop me unless you have ultra high numbers from several cities converted in your shrine. Raise dead has ten times less effectiveness then destructive. Dark magic affects the army, not my spells. Summoning is also army-orientated.

I lost to a CoTN rush a couple of times, though.

Quote:
I saw that a lot of times - this is better way against Dungeon, I believe.


Maybe you never played against a good warlock

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zamrai
zamrai


Adventuring Hero
Moonlight Melody
posted April 21, 2008 06:56 PM

About usefulness of counterspell I don't mean to argue because I do think it is useful - it just don't match my gamestyle. Somebody needs to kick my ass with Dungeon to assure me about neccesity of counterspell   For now I just see usefulness.

After disabling the witches it could be great thing to do but I don't see possibility of killing them in 1st turn. No necro unit can reach the enemy line in 1st move - even Vampire lords and the bad news is that liches haven't got better initiative than witches (incl. altrnate upg even worse) so there is only 'chance' for them to move before witches.
This complicates matter a bit.

And dungeon spells are not so strong like used to be (at least not in first month and we don't want to give warlock to much time)

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 21, 2008 07:13 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 19:13, 21 Apr 2008.

Quote:
No necro unit can reach the enemy line in 1st move - even Vampire lords


Tactics? Windstrider boots?

Quote:
and the bad news is that liches haven't got better initiative than witches (incl. altrnate upg even worse) so there is only 'chance' for them to move before witches.


atb is so random. You can get a first move like half of the time.

Quote:
And dungeon spells are not so strong like used to be (at least not in first month and we don't want to give warlock to much time)


Huh? Nothing changed when it comes to warlock's spells in ToTe.. Only stalkers sped up a bit the process of creeping..

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