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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Necropolis power deficiency !
Thread: Necropolis power deficiency ! This thread is 23 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 19 20 21 22 23 · «PREV / NEXT»
chpr
chpr


Adventuring Hero
posted June 06, 2006 08:52 AM
Edited by Lich_King at 07:58, 21 Jun 2006.

necro

hey guys.. i`ve been playing necro in H5 since it came out. My friend focuses mainly on dungeon (last game he was castle). My conclusion is `you are insane to think necro is weak`. Reasons:
1. Try the embalmer (Kasper) hero. With him you will be able to reach about 16 level while your enemy is 7-8 (i`m not kidding at all!)
2. Try getting vamp mansion on day 7, upgr on day 1 week 2. Take all your skelly arch (about 100+ by that time) those a few vamps and start your hunt! You will see that after a week the only adversaries you will not be able to handle are black dragons/archangels/titans. 20-30 vamps, ~15 lvl hero, 500-700 skellies with battle frenzy and the <<>> derived from it can rape almost everything on the map.
3. Don't buy zombies and ghosts
4. upgr archliches as soon as possible
5. choose wraiths or dragons.. a hard choice for me
6. Upgrade is the trick in H5. An upgraded army can rape in no time a twice bigger unupgraded one
7. Remember! Dungeon/Haven/Academy won't be able to upgrade any of their units if they would like to keep up with you in the creeping ( no matter how hard they try, if u choose the embalmer they won't be able, i guarantee this 100%)
8. Your enemy will always suffer casualties ( imagine how 6 emerald dragons hit his grim raiders on move 1 Pp sweet isn't it? Now imagine how they hit your 20 liches /30-40 vamps, with Kaspar you ressurect all casualties with the tent and rape the dragons slowly but surely )
9. that guy whose brother raped him with 13 black dragons.. hmm.. to upgrade black dragons he needed 20k gold, a dungeon can't buy even the weekly population, how did he upgr the dragons?
same goes for castle and academy (sweet upgrs rakhasa raji 10k gold, inquisitors 9k gold P)
10. If you start with little resources, your enemy won't be able to capture his gem/crystal/mercury mines on time, he will be slow in getting his high level creatures! Go capture a sulfur mine with 50 master hunters in front of it with inferno! With necro/embalmer you will move your vamps 3 squares, the master hunters will shoot your skelly arch (kill hell a lot) then u will get near them with the vamps, and Kaspar's tent will raise about 50 skellys while vamps handle hunters! eternal servitude will raise 10-15 more, and u will end up losing 20 skellys, now do i have to explain what happens when 50 master hunters shoot on imps or succubi! ahahaha i laugh at the sight of that ) (same will happen with some mages in front of a gem mine for example :> or maybe worse..)
11. Ghosts are useful when entering an utopia or that huge military posts that give u 5th level creatures. The AI focuses mainly the ghosts, and they evade the attacks all the time, Oh no! they didnt miss! heh.. kaspar resurrects tons of ghosts with his tent. Last time i attacked a military post with 10 vamps, ~200 skellis and 30 ghosts, raped it in no time. Now imagine 50 assasins, 20-30 blood furies and 10-15 minotaurs attacking a dungeon post ( 1 deep dragon, 2 of those sexy <<>> and so on..) OMFG that will be a slaughter!
12. The key to a necro's success is  high level, the right upgraded units and tons of skellis. That doesnt sound so good heh? yeah.. but imagine your enemy.. lower level, unupgraded units in low numbers.. blah..
P.S. I REALLY reccommend u to try the embalmer out.. you will see what might it is to be 10 levels above your enemy..

~Edited~
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Sanyu
Sanyu


Known Hero
posted June 07, 2006 05:22 AM

Wraiths

Why does everyone say that they are weak, I mean they have after all the best in stats and damage...

But I still like Pit Lord for a 6th level unit...

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igniteice
igniteice

Tavern Dweller
posted June 07, 2006 07:56 AM

The 'Click here to review this thread' feature is broken.  It just erased my post and didn't actually show me the original thread, just a new reply window.  Awesome.

Anyway, retyping my entire post would be fantastic, but I'm not up to it.  The highlights:

1- Don't use Kaspar.  Worst hero next to all those other junk Necropolis heroes.  The only two decent heroes are Vladimir and Lucretia.  Vladimir is great for the extra raise dead effeciency, but I found I don't need that extra benefit if I play as Lucrecia, which benefits the best unit for Necropolis: Vampire Lord.

By level 20, you'll have about 90-115 Vampire Lords all with +10/+10 attack defense from her alone added on to them - that's completely excluding all stats from leveling up and items and what not.  Eventually you may even have more attack/defense on vampire lords than tier 7 units.

That means you'll be doing more damage and taking less damage with your main unit and that means you won't even need to use raise dead that often.

Besides, Lucrecia can use use Dark Magic spells instead of wasting turns raising dead.

It's not like Kaspar gets some magical experience bonus.

Anyway, I recommend the following skills for Lucretia:

Aside from Basic Necromancy, she starts with Basic Sorcery and Double Mana Regeneration.

If Lucretia didn't start with Double Mana Regeneration, I'd recommend Boneward, Magic Insight, and Arcane Training (20% less mana cost for spells.)

Magic Insight is a completely useless skill, but required for Boneward.  If you're playing against Inferno, it's probably a good idea to go for Boneward (protection vs fireballs and meteor showers and such.)

Attack: Archery, Battle Frenzy, Cold Steel
Defense: Vitality, Protection, Evasion

Evasion is pretty necessary vs all factions, because every faction masses up shooters.  It's generally a given, even though with 1500-2000 skeleton archers, you'll take them all out in one or two turns.

Chilling Bones is a useless skill too - you'll maybe reflect 10-20 damage for every attack.  In the long run, I'd rather take less damage from 500 archers obviously.

Summoning is essential.  People seem to think Haunted Mines is useful - I disagree, since ghosts just suck, so I just put my skill points into the three masters: life, conjuration, earthblood.  Of course, if you really want, you can give up earthblood for hunated mines.

Last ares is of course Dark Magic in which I go the route of the three masters: curses, mind, and pain.

Just mass skeleton archers, vampire lords, wraiths, and archliches, and you'll be fine against anyone.

Use Dark Magic wisely and you should fair (mass slow and banshee howl stack so use them!)

I always throw my vampire lords right out in the center of the map and start the ball rolling with them.  Wraiths have a ton of offense so use them for that... otherwise their harm touch is great against tier 7 units (some suggest spliting them into groups like half and half - I don't see the point, since that just means two more groups to raise dead on instead of one.)

Archliches are great - just don't ever let the enemy get into a melee fight with them.  Their melee is pretty useless, unlike skeleton archers who can defend themselves pretty well by sheer numbers.

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chpr
chpr


Adventuring Hero
posted June 07, 2006 06:35 PM

using lucretia will slow u down in creeping, most melee creeps just ignore the vamps and continue attacking the skellis..having a unit speciality will draw your enemy's attention to this unit, you will be surprised what a focus they will put on your vamps..
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igniteice
igniteice

Tavern Dweller
posted June 08, 2006 12:20 AM

Melee creatures also have to cross the map to even get to your skeleton archers in which time you've already killed them off with your vampires and archers.

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted June 08, 2006 02:01 AM

I think I will try out kaspar. That seems to be the strat that would work best in multi (where "no raise dead spec" is bound to show up sooner or later)


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kreszantas
kreszantas


Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
posted June 08, 2006 04:42 AM

living creatures go for what they think is the greatest threat... legions of skellies thats a threat.. swarm of ghosts/spectres mild annoyance for necro player... big threat due to the 'luck' of the incorperal ability...  Boosted creature in any fashion vamp with vamp speciality hero.. major major threat and will be eliminated first...  

Zombies are not seen as a threat EVEN with speciality hero.. too slow and not effective enough, so AI ignores it to a degree.. which is an art of deception which Necro is supposed to be good at, use it to it advantage.

So to put it simply, you have to know when playing the AI that its going to look at the most powerful and try to kill that stack first... much in a way (most human) would/should do... but since we human players can put a greater emphasis on individual stats and know how to sometimes play "better than it".
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Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.

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Clahar
Clahar

Tavern Dweller
posted June 08, 2006 08:59 PM

It's nice and all that Necro has strategies to beat an AI. Now what about a human? Anyone honestly going to sit back and let a Necro amass skeletons? The answer is no, no one is that stupid. They are going to attack death right away, especially Sylvan and Inferno. Can Necro mount a defence to them early? Not even close. Gating screws any ranged you have, and I don't care how powerful the Vamps get, they are simply not going to eliminate a whole army. Sure, if you let the game go on for 6 months with no one ever attacking Necro, they'll probably beat you.

Bytheby, for everyone who has offered a strategy that beats Necro/that Necro owns with, you seem to assume that your opponent is going to sit there and defend every turn, allowing you to do whatever you want. Just guessing, that probably won't happen.

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Betruger
Betruger


Known Hero
empowered mind
posted June 08, 2006 08:59 PM
Edited by Betruger at 21:07, 08 Jun 2006.

I just don't quite get it what some people see in Kaspar. Imo the tent is copmletly useless and war machines is a wasted slot (beacuse balista skill is also a crappy one compared to other possibilities, not to mention the ammo cart/catapult).
But what's worse, the tent, even with Kaspar on level 15, heals only about 100-200 HP. And you can use it only 3 times!! That means: when you are fighting for example vs 50 master hunters and they go first you'll never be able to recover your losses with the tent. Whereas with just one Raise Dead spell you can ressurect tons of HP and it only costs 5 mana.

I find Raise Dead _much_ more effective than tent, and that's why i think Vladimir is a must. Playing as Lucrecia is tempting, but if you don't get Raise Dead from the guild you are screwed. If it weren't for that i surely would choose her.
The only drawback of playing Vladimir is that he starts with summoning magic, which is also pretty much a wasted slot, because the only useful summoning spell is Phantom Image. Wait, it's not just useful, it's superpowerful But it'd be nicer to have sorcery with magic insight (just like Lucrecia) instead of basic summoning.
Well one can't have everything I guess.

So it boils down to this: either choose Lucrecia and hope for a Raise Dead from mage guild, or play it safe, with Vladimir who simply starts with that spell.

Oh, and also, I disagree that zombies are useless. They have high defence and HP and in week 1 they serve as a shield for your archers. You just split them in 3 groups and surround your archers with them, and you don't need any other units to take out lots and lost of neutrals.

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drewid
drewid


Hired Hero
posted June 08, 2006 09:27 PM

Have to say that necro are designed to be weaker, thats why they can ressurect loads of stuff, the whole point of using them is to outnumber the enemy, thousands of skeleton archers  and ghosts can do a surprising amount of damage. one of the heroes (cant remember his name) even says abomut how he beleives the undead would be outpowerd and out manouverd by their living counterparts so he believes in raising loads to overwhelm the enemy.  

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Silverhawk5504
Silverhawk5504


Hired Hero
The Forsaken One
posted June 08, 2006 09:43 PM

What are you talking about?!?!

Vladimir's summoning magic is a wasted slot...are you insane?

Try playing the Necro campaign, mission 5...where I attacked the
main town to win the scenario early in the game...

I had a weak ass army, but I did have the summon phoenix spell...
it caused utter destruction!!

Also, life magic increases your raise dead ability...which is your life line...

Vladimir is certainly the best hero for necropolis, and summoning magic is a must for any spellcasters.  Phantom forces along with summon phoenix are so amazingly powerful that you don't even need a real army, just 1 strong stack.

Also, in regards to that Embalmer hero...ehhhh...that seems so, so bad..
I wouldn't waste a skill slot on war machines...there's too many other things that are needed

Perfect Necro hero:  Necromancy, Sorcery, Dark Magic, Summoning Magic, Attack, and Luck/Defense

Pick the above and your forces will be nearly unstoppable (assuming you get nice spells in mage guild)
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~Dima

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Gus
Gus


Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
posted June 09, 2006 01:07 AM

I am a bit disappointed with the "strategies" i see offered... Most seem to rely on picking a hero. I personally think the game is much more interesting if you take a random hero. Considering you can hire at least one, maybe two, in your town, you get a good chance to get one around which you can build a decent strategy. If the goal is to play always the same, always relying on Raise Dead, etc, wow, the game gets pretty boring pretty quick.
____________
If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.

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kreszantas
kreszantas


Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
posted June 09, 2006 03:56 AM

Quote:


by LichKing: Taken from a ToH thread:

Lol, Mr Necro...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.......By this time I was known as one not to let me play Necro cuz I would just dominate your ass with it...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



He's not lying about that, lol. I remember my lessons well, lol. I was in a Griffon clan, which meant my starting bonus was boots, gloves, and the necklace.....

Speed kills, eh? Couldn't prove that by Kres, esp when he met me late week 3 early week 4 with a legion of skels and handed me my ass on a silver platter!

Yeah, Kres, I still remember that one, lol!





Note key words in it late week 3 early week 4 and he had every speed art from H3.. there is the same type of dominance with necro... you just have to use different methods.  I have won games early week 2 with just 200 skels and the other guy just had built lvl 6 creatures.

I was the Offensive one against a "supposed" superior opponent.  Thats the key to necro is mass aggression.  you have to take out things that most would not even dare to try... succeed at mastering that on any map and any difficulty I would say that more than 75% of the time I would win in these conditions.
____________
Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.

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Betruger
Betruger


Known Hero
empowered mind
posted June 09, 2006 07:52 AM

Quote:
What are you talking about?!?!

Vladimir's summoning magic is a wasted slot...are you insane?

Try playing the Necro campaign, mission 5...where I attacked the
main town to win the scenario early in the game...




Ah but you see, I'm talking about multiplayer.

Quote:

Vladimir is certainly the best hero for necropolis, and summoning magic is a must for any spellcasters.  Phantom forces along with summon phoenix are so amazingly powerful that you don't even need a real army, just 1 strong stack.



Same here. I agree that Phantom Forces are superb, but phoenix is pretty much useless. By the time that you get that spell, you'll have so many skelletons that phantom forces will always be more powerful.

And imo summoning magic is useless because in order to phantom skellies, you don't need to have it. Of course you would then have to have magic insight, in order to be able to cast that spell.

The only advantage of summoning magic it that it makes Raise Dead stronger, but Raise Dead is sufficiently strong without it.


Quote:

Perfect Necro hero:  Necromancy, Sorcery, Dark Magic, Summoning Magic, Attack, and Luck/Defense



I'd rather have: Necromancy, Attack, Logistics, Sorcery, Luck, Defense.

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Buffysboy
Buffysboy

Tavern Dweller
posted June 09, 2006 08:10 AM

Now that you think about it, the mass skellies strategy just plain sucks. There is a spell called mass deflection(ranged dmg decrease by 70%), with mastery and the evasion skill (20% ranged dmg reduction) skellies will only do 10% damage to any unit on the battle field and that doesnt count the defence yet. Dark magic cannot dispell/cleanse anything now, and you can only aquire dispell from light magic school, of which a necro will prolly never ever get.

Again, Im talking about multiplayer of which your opponent is more compotent. So you prolly have to think twice before you use your mass skellies to swarm people. All the other units suck, too. Vampires are only lvl 4 now, even with Lucretia (in multiplayer you wont pass lvl 20) the vampires are still a piece of cake. Yes, Iv seen vampires with 40attack/40defence, but that will not happen in the real multiplayer games.

So Necropolis is power deficient? I think so

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Necromancer
Necromancer

Tavern Dweller
posted June 09, 2006 11:13 AM

Quote:
Now that you think about it, the mass skellies strategy just plain sucks. There is a spell called mass deflection(ranged dmg decrease by 70%), with mastery and the evasion skill (20% ranged dmg reduction) skellies will only do 10% damage to any unit on the battle field and that doesnt count the defence yet. Dark magic cannot dispell/cleanse anything now, and you can only aquire dispell from light magic school, of which a necro will prolly never ever get.

Again, Im talking about multiplayer of which your opponent is more compotent. So you prolly have to think twice before you use your mass skellies to swarm people. All the other units suck, too. Vampires are only lvl 4 now, even with Lucretia (in multiplayer you wont pass lvl 20) the vampires are still a piece of cake. Yes, Iv seen vampires with 40attack/40defence, but that will not happen in the real multiplayer games.

So Necropolis is power deficient? I think so


Doesn't the wraith have the remove positive spell ability??
And you forget that the power of the undead is not only in skellies..but in sheer numbers..and dark magic..I love to play around with frenzy, blind, mass slow, and probably the most effective against enemy shooters - mass confusion...hehe

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chpr
chpr


Adventuring Hero
posted June 09, 2006 02:31 PM

Guys you are writing total crap, trusting only your theorethical calculations. Listen now, 1st about rushing a necropolis:
There is almost always a guard on the pass between 2 players. FE on heritage, there are ~20 treants. I take them down with 14/20 vamps and 300/400 (depends on how much my hero is levelled) skellis on week 3/4. Take them down with 20 cerberus, 30-40 monkeys and thos crappy imps! YEAH YEAH! Those giant pine trees will put the little cross we were used to see in disciples 2 on your place! Won't comment what power is Kaspar in/against a rush! That tent can break any inferno's rushing army to pieces!
With Vladimir i think you will run out of mana every 3 battles. Necro heroes have extremely low knowledge, most often ~4-6, that means 60 mana at most. I think guys u will need a lot of other spells that raise dead in the difficult battles against 5,6,7lvl creatures on the map. GJ to kreszantas, he got the point! But i dont think they have played on heroic, and that`s the reason his opp got lvl 6 creatures on week 2! If u start with 5 gem/crystal/merc/sulfur that's a difficult goal to achieve. Now for the missile deflect.. OK i admit my friend never applied it, BUT i never allow the opponent to cast spells at his will! Take sorcery, and start terrorising his weak shooters with frenzy or puppet master! That will drive buff-spells-relying towns as haven and academy out of their mind, every turn their hero gets - cleansing,cleansing,cleansing! Even if he gets a turn before you, if he makes the mistake to cast the defflect missile, just cast puppet master on the mages fe, and shoot straight up/down through his whole army! War machines is not a wasted slot.. laying siege to a castle may be the necropolis' nightmare! With those giant wights, slow zombies, unreliable ghosts and weak dragons! With the war machines u can fast take down the towers and wreck havoc inside with the liches and proper use of the dark magic (u know 1 lich = 1 tower shot,  hurts huh?) As u can see, even that guy who wrote the giant necropolis guide admits he uses often Kaspar. As i also described my strat, i would add some things.. I said not to buy the zombies, now i`d say buy them week 2 and go sacrifice them to stronger creeps, the more u creep the better! never upgr them, that mercury u will need later. Creep furiously with skellis and zombies while u achieve the upgraded vamp mansion in the end of week 2. Then come back, take the 20 vamps, leave what is left of the zombies (they will slow your hero down) build magic guild 1 (if not build already) and go conquer every single creep on the map. ( In battle carefully choose skellis and vamps position due to some aoe attacks/spells that can take your tent down while attacking the skellis, rarely attack druids, they will rape the hell out of your vamps and continue casting even if you are close to them)
The best build order i have established so far for me is :
grave-upgr grave/crypt/town hall/vamp mansion/upgr it/city hall/ghost tower/go for liches and wights. Then i`d better upgrade the liches and wights, than going for dragons - resource demanding building, weak creatures. With some upgraded liches u can take an utopia down (if u already haven't taken it down with 20 vamps and a legion of skellis)
PS: Bjorn did u try out my doctor?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 09, 2006 02:40 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 14:41, 09 Jun 2006.

Split inquistors to 3-4 stacks, and you have 3-4 cleansings per turn, so the hero can cast whatever he wants. How about that? : )

And, you have 500 skell archers while skilled castle player can have 300 marksmen because of training and the spell to make their damage monstrous (aka bless, 2-8 damage almost begs for bless ;p). and he doesn't even need to waste his protection spell, inquistors can bless, too. :]

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chpr
chpr


Adventuring Hero
posted June 09, 2006 02:47 PM

ahahaha, training? you guys play with ~4 hidden gold mines
split inquisitors in 7 groups, so u wont have to take army at all

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Betruger
Betruger


Known Hero
empowered mind
posted June 09, 2006 02:51 PM

haha right, 300 marksmen. Uh-huh
Provided he found 100k gold somewhere

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