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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Dungeon Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Dungeon Faction This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
One_Hit_Wonder
One_Hit_Wonder

Tavern Dweller
posted November 20, 2006 07:12 AM

Quote:
One_Hit_Wonder

Hellwitch
I would rather if you not reply comments like 'i can only laugh'. Your suggestion is not infinitely better than mine. I tried the same strategy you suggest - tanking with troops while the hero goes it solo to nuke the enemy army.

your strategy of 'do nothing but get slaughtered and hope for god your hero kills your enemies fast enough' has limits on what it can ever possibly achieve. You have to buy enough HP to survive this entire time - and your skill tree has no more focus on hero spell damage than mine, so my hero will be hitting too.

Luck can't be used as effectively on dungeon because you need to be sure of your damage, and luck just doesn't cut it. Leadership with morale can allow your 16 initiative blood furies to morale many times before slow tank units such as skellies and crossbowmen can fire. How can a blood fury able to deal more than its own HP in damage, crossign the entire field and acting on average three times before the enemy can move be useless? only large units get this kind of initiatve, and they can generally be blocked by placing your furies behind units.

The deep hydra has HP but, like the minotaur, is ignorable and slow. 'creeping well' is not to be underestimated as if you have no losses you have a big stack - how many skellies will be there after 3 fury hits? tactics DOES get offered often IF you get attacka nd leadership ALWAYS the moment they are ofered and NO other skill untill you have what you need - tactics, power of speed (for creeping) retribution, swiftness aura, diplomacy (to make dungeon troops join, else they never do due to small army).

My strat allows me to wipe out high damage enemy units before they can act, minimising teh damage to my troops. Since dungeon is the only real hero DD army, one their army is whittled down the threat to your own force is removed. The enemy can only kill your furies if they are alive to do it, and with Dungeons high initiative first strike strategy is not only not a stupid idead it is a necessity.

Of course, you are welcome to tank and die - lts see if you were able to get enough money and hydra recruits to stand against a bristling nature army who all strike before your hero can cast. You will be lucky to cast one shot against a decent human player.

Regarding skills that threaten your army, all 'scary skill' units have low initiative and generally low speed. Your army just has to dance around them - maybe slow, maybe use hero cast, hit with furies or try to one hit kill with raiders. black dragons are supposed to hit boxed range units through the box, and you have to use your army and your hero to eliminate threats to the dragons before the dragons can be hit by harm touch etc.


Sorcery is great but you need movement and morale too much - and with a high initiative army i generally find i win before my hero can act or loose too many furies for teh battle to be acceptible. Cast only when your enemy is slower than your hero, as a finisher. Otherwise get your army to teh point where it can win without getting hit (read smashed, since furies are the core ans yes they do drop like flies if you're poor enough to let them be hit)

Destructive - what can i say, i'm a sinitar player, its already in the bag (that one hit needs to be a good one! and your focus must be on your army - sinitar takes care of himself regarding magic)

Luck - good but not as good as morale. Morale does not leave your victory to chance. Early hits must be consistent, and while a morale strike may be retargeted/ retreat the unit, luck occurs to one target and only sometimes. Remember 4 skills total max on a normal map, if you have more you'll never get the skill you need from those 4.

Logistics cannot be had until your hero can fight - you get 6 skills on a leve 10 hero you will be raped by everyone since you can't DO anything, only piddly shotgun bonuses. Once you get attack and leadership by al means do its great, but for everyone who has suggested teleport assault on a hero remember my strat allows you to cast fireball etc. instead of teleport so thats a few hundred kills you've passed over to move lamearse hydra 2 feet to the left to be ignored somewhere else or killed more quickly.

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One_Hit_Wonder
One_Hit_Wonder

Tavern Dweller
posted November 20, 2006 07:40 AM

One for Dragonforce. When you do pen and paper HOMM remember the order in which people act.

Level 12 hero:
Leadership should be level 2, swiftness aura should be there, by SAVING MONEY BY NOT BUYING COWS OR HYDRA you can afford artifact merchant and cycle artifacts until boots of speed. Attack may be there on level 1 or 2, you should have tactics. You will certainly have tactics or swiftness, hence hit other end of the field. Fury morale should be 4 by articats, natural morale, and a bit of leadership.

now your furies are BACKED UP by the skills they need to be a decent unit. now they CAN cross the field, they CAN hit shooters first round, with 4 morale once they kill 1 stack they have 5 = morale 50% of teh time. Combine with 16 initiative = at least 3 actions before a 12 initiative shooter, you have 4-5 actions before average shooter.
If you have 10 furies can vs 50 marksmen with these skills and win, and since your hero can act before such shooters, you have guarnateed win since haven hero can't do anything and you can blast their stack 1 shot (unless you are a genius who teleport assaults the 4 cows you were able to buy to their lame death, and lose because they cost so much you conldn't buy any decent units)

This is the glory of FOCUS - by saving money on cows and hydra i can buy all my useful troops (heroic). If i buy cows + hydra my troop development is right back. I am not arguing they are useless, i am arguing they ar not cost effective. Cut cow cost to 140 i'll buy them. At 200+ you just can't do it. Hydra also expensive and too slow to take part in the battle, unless you cop out and stand there to get them raped and hope hero casts will win (= you lose)

Haven: doesn't even need to involve the mighty marksmen, the paladins can do it, killing the redheads in one blow.

Block the paladins by leaving furies on 2nd rank and standing assasins etc. on smaller squares leaving an exit for the fury. Then teh furies or the raiders can hit the marskmen. If they are boxed your hero has evens cahnces of going before them, your witches to confuse, or double action by fury so you can kill box and get in. Any of tehse will kill this tanky but low initiative unit, so chance dictates you'll generally always get one of tehse options.

Necropolis: Perfect to start the fun by using the overgrown skellie archer stack against them.

START the fun? skellies start what now? wake me up when they act! just because a unit is tanky doesn't mean it is scary. Even if furies die the first time the skellies can act, they will still have killed three times their cost in enemy units. And since you don't lose any creeping, you have lots. You only have to win this game, if the furies win the end battle for you and you lose 'em all who's worried? it's the last battle!

Dungeon: In a dungeon mirror, they will either be melted with a spell, or killed by any unit that reaches them first.
Depends on the dungeon opponent. If they're a cow/ hydra genius you'll outlevel them. If they didn't get morale you'll act many more times. If they didn't focus on gaining speed points they'll be too slow to reach you. And if they're only weapon is their hero, they either got a magic guild and have no troops, or they have no scary spells so who cares. Their hero is going to get 1 shot in - this battle will be fast (high damage low hp on both sides)

Sylvan: Expect either druids or hunters to kill them in first turn.
Furies will act bafore one or the other of these units even if you enemy uses (i hate the bastard) initiative boosting hero. Sylvian highest initiative is what, 12? they consistently have fairly high initiative, but you should still get 2-3 fury actions. That knocks their army back a bit, makes the shot less painful when it comes. They'll kill your furies but furies will have caused enough damage for the enemy to be broken (+ then your hero will cast... this strat by forgoing cows and hydras lets you get your mage guild = chain lighning or meteor shower... pain)

Academy: Quite possible that mages will destroy them with fireball.
Academy's out of the game since they need to be level 6 before they can buy their town hall. Puts them virtually out of the game buying 6 town points on a village hall, no money = ignore. Also no initiatiove (notice a pattern here?)

Inferno: Expect deleb's ballista to mop the floor with furies. Succubi will finish the ones remaining.

Inferno, like haven, are tough but low initiative. Stat horde with no real tactical skill. Grok i am afraid of, teleport assault horned demons in and explode them using initiative boost from teleport assault. Deleb, however, is a walking joke. Since you can ingore every unit in her army except sucubi and the catapault, and catapault HP is limited to the same HP (what, 1000? = 1 fury hit mid-game) your high - initiative army can whittle her to death (with your FURIES which she can't KILL without the succubi or the catapault, as well as the rest of your troops e.g. spellcast as often as you want on low initiative army). Other than that all you have to do is kill her imps before they yoink your mana so you can hero-nuke and Deleb can't win.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 20, 2006 10:40 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:46, 20 Nov 2006.

Don't make me laugh. I play inferno. Furies make me laugh, any of my units mop the floor with them, save demons which I don't even use. Inferno is incredibly overestimated, why furies are hugely overestimated. That's a fact. Every dungeon fan writes how leet and omg they are, but they are worthless to me in lategame and pose little threat to my army. If I played any serious tournament, I'd LOVE to play against fury lovers. Free wins. -_-


What are you trying to prove? Furies can act three times only over initiative 7-8 units (and not everytime, since there is some randomness in ATB bars - including morale, which can screw them completely), and it's obvious there will be some high-init and speed units in your opponent's army that will kill them with one hit. Stop dreaming, it's not AI. Every competetive player will kill them in their first move, it doesn't really matter if it will be done by djinns, marksmen, paladins, ballista or hunters. Only Yrwanna may have the defense to survive one blow, but it will be strong anyway and lots of the main stack will die, making it little threat.

Just do me a favor and stop writing those posts how furies beat the sh*t out of everyone, please. I don't mean to be offensive, no way, but it's just a bit boring. Umm, if you feel offended by my post, than sorry.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 20, 2006 01:24 PM

@One_Hit_Wonder
You are oversimplifying things to the point you sound silly.I suggest a few more games with (good)human players before talking again about the uberness of dungeon and its furies.I've played all factions and can tell a few things on my own,believe me.
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dragoni
dragoni


Hired Hero
posted December 03, 2006 02:32 PM

So how can I beat AI on hard who rushes me with lvl 14 hero on week 2?

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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted January 28, 2007 05:59 PM

Quote:

By the way , I have a request for you guys . I was playing Heroes V only , without the Hammers of Fate , and really don't know how does Dungeon deal with dwarves . Please , post some tactics, and if it's posible , do it ASAp , cause i will have a sparring with my friend in short , and he plays with the Fortres  


My tactic would be to wait until patch 2.1 when the dwarves will have elements associated with them so the warlock can do extra damage.

Generally you want to watch out for the bear riders who will charge across in one turn, and be careful that the thanes don't hit bunched up units (they hit multiple units that are adjacent).
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 28, 2007 06:09 PM

Unless you have patched the game to 2.1 don't try to use elemental vision because due to a bug the dwarves have no element.

Don't put many units adjacent to others because the dwarves fight better against packed units. The thane for instance hits the initial stack for 8-12. But there is also lightning irresistible damage(affected by luck and defence) which damages both initial stack and the adjacent ones.

If he gets luck expect many of your spells resisted due to dwarven luck so get exp irresistible spells before you fight him.

Do NOT attack his shieldguards with furies, the more you have to travel to hit them the more they reduce your damage.

Skirmishers(ranged lvl 2 tier) can cause your units to get -50% speed and -30% initiative and will happen more with luck.

Blackbear riders when attacking have a chance to knock your units backwards but do little damage.

Watch for mark of the fire by rune priests(triggers randomly when they attack). If he gets destructive magic his fireball or armageddon will hurt your marked creature more and the upgd unit, rune patriarch shoots in a cross(aoe) which can mark more than one creatures.

He may want to use armageddon since he can get dwarven luck(for high resistance) and his lava dragons are immune to it. You'll probably face destructive or light magic.

And keep your guard for rune combos: A unit may suddenly get double speed, a second attack, attack vs all adjacent creatures, immunity vs two random elements etc for one round. Always check his units when they glow before they act.

That said they are not imba but they can surprise you doing things out of nowhere. Good luck!

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Juoksentelisinkohan?

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32167
32167

Tavern Dweller
posted September 26, 2007 06:42 PM

Wish deep hydras don't retaliate, then you can creep any neutrals with them

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pinkspear
pinkspear


Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
posted October 13, 2007 10:53 PM

Here's a little post-Tote analysis of dungeon:

First of all I have to mention that this is not an in-depth analysis, it is based on my first impressions and experience.

About the skill changes: I think the only thing here that is worth mentioning is warlock's luck is a bit harder to get since you need magic resistance and soldier's luck to get it(and therefore expert luck).But if you remember Doomforge's Great battles thread, he mentioned that he only get it at lvl 18, so I think it's not a significant disadvantage to get it a few lvl-ups later.

About the new spells: Although warlock hero gets summoning and destructive from mage guild, I focused on destructive in my games as ever. As you know in tote firewall is moved to destr. magic and is now a lvl 3 spell, and we also got a new lvl 5 spell, deep freeze.I think the problems start here, as I got firewall and chain lightning in my mage guild, so the best creeping spell that I could use was the empowered ice bolt, which wasn't bad, but I wish I had fireball/CoW since firewall deals pathetic damage, and, also meteor shower is much better than chain lightning. Deep freeze vs Implosion is pretty situational, but maybe Implosion is more versatile with the better damage, and with the freeze you need extra physical attacks to the creature to abuse it to the fullest. So I think the additon of those spells reduce the chance to get the better ones, which hurts a bit.

About the (alternative) upgrades:

1. Stalker vs assasin
 
I think the Stalker is the crature warlocks needed. Its improved stats and its AWESOME invisibility ability, it is a perfect creature. With invisibility activated, you have 3 "free" casts with your hero, and you have time to reach even the most troublesome creatures(master hunters, archmages) with safety. I was able to defeat 35 archmagi with    40 stalkers and empo ice bolts with no losses. It's also worth mentioning that if you break invisibility the creature you attack won't retaliate, I found this also very useful. I think playing with asassins makes no sense now, the stalkers are much more versatile imo.

2. Blood Fury vs Blood Sister

I think the difference between the two creatures are pretty straightforward; the sisters have +5 hp but -2 initiative(and -0.5 average damage and +1 defense), it's still situational. Maybe I vote for Furies because of the +2 init. It's funny but I found the sisters somewhat slow with their reduced init.

3. Mino Guards vs Mino Taskmaster

I think the taskmasters are slightly better because of their improved stats and the aura(since warlocks don't use leadership too often some morale-reducing effects can hurt them). Minotaurs don't act too often, so losing the double-attack won't hurt so much imo.

4. Grim Raiders vs Brisk Raiders

My vote goes clearly to the Grim raiders. The wheeling attack of the brisks is quite useless, I can hardly think of a battle where they hurt more than 1 stack in their route, and also that ride-by damage was very low. The dark raiders defense-reducing charge is much-much better. Even the brisks +1 init and +2 attack don't help since they have -2 max damage.

5. Deep Hydra vs Foul Hydra

Pass. Either of the two are slow tank units, and imo regenration and acid blood are on the same lvl. Maybe the fouls +1 init is the reason to play with them(yes, they have lower max damage but I think the acid blood compensates that).

6. Shadow Matriarchs vs Shadow Mistresses

I think that the mistresses higher damage, hp, speed and init makes them the better choice. They can't shoot but their whip strike works better since they're walkers and have invisibility too. During my testing they inflicted quite nice damage. They have the same spells as the matriarchs, and cast them while invisible.

7. Black Dragons vs Red dragons

I think that the reds are more offensive units despite their -10 max damage because their not-retaliated incinerate attack and higher init(+1). Their -5 hp is nothing imo considering they're lvl7s. The blacks are better for defensive means(e. g. during castle defense) since they're resistant to magic and can still do nice damage.

Finally I have to mention that invisibility is not so useful against heroes since any mass/area effect spell will reveal the hiding units. Also if a unit is moving through a tile where an invisible unit is standing, an attack will be performed.But it seems they forgot to tell it to the AI since they won't try to expose the units by walking through the battlefield.

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diegis
diegis


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted October 09, 2008 02:36 PM

Now , that we saw all about previous versions, I'd like to see some new strategies for the new patch 3.1.....

thx
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 09, 2008 02:51 PM

That would assume there were any changes for dungeon in the first place.
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Juoksentelisinkohan?

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted October 09, 2008 02:55 PM

Oh but there are, the enemy moves and tries to find your stalkers when you go invisible

So the point is: no more Firewall abuse
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 09, 2008 03:21 PM

Which I'm sure will spawn an infinite number of viable strategies.
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Juoksentelisinkohan?

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PsyrenJ
PsyrenJ


Hired Hero
Need 180 HP S.Mistress 4 Hire?
posted October 09, 2008 09:31 PM

Expert Summoning and Fire Trap LOL

The nerf to Dungeon creeping does suck, but it isn't a total wreck as long as you place them correctly on your tactics phase.

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Just because Clover can do it, it doesn't mean that you can do it to... Like 1 Imp killing 2 Arch-Angels

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Roell
Roell

Tavern Dweller
posted December 20, 2008 06:07 PM

alright, I know it's been a long time since the last one posted on this page, but I need to know.

What do you consider the best Hero for Dungeon?

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted December 20, 2008 06:16 PM

Sinitar for his specialty and good starting skills. Then there's also Yrwanna who has a very good start with those Maidens and also very good starting skills (Enlightenment + Intelligence)

Yrbeth is the worst in my opinion. Not only the specialty is not that great but also she starts with Dark Magic.

Lethos is a tricky one with a good specialty but bad starting skills (Dark Magic). However, you could make great use of Dark Magic in which case Lethos becomes excellent, but requires effort & luck.

Eruina is average, not a very strong specialty and not very good starting skills, but not very bad either. As I said, she's average.

Vayshan is also pretty good, starting skills kinda ok and a decent specialty. But he's not as good as Sinitar and Yrwanna in my opinion.

Kythra is also a tricky one like Lethos. Her specialty is below average (Minotaurs are not very good creatures), but she starts with the 2% Leadership perk. If you make good use of it with Empathy (or even try out a more might approach with Retribution), then Kythra becomes a very good hero.

Sorgal... hmm, one of the worst heroes. The specialty is below average and starting skills are not that great... still he's not as bad as Yrbeth.
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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted December 23, 2008 10:15 PM

Quote:
Sinitar for his specialty and good starting skills. Then there's also Yrwanna who has a very good start with those Maidens and also very good starting skills (Enlightenment + Intelligence)

Yrbeth is the worst in my opinion. Not only the specialty is not that great but also she starts with Dark Magic.

Lethos is a tricky one with a good specialty but bad starting skills (Dark Magic). However, you could make great use of Dark Magic in which case Lethos becomes excellent, but requires effort & luck.

Eruina is average, not a very strong specialty and not very good starting skills, but not very bad either. As I said, she's average.

Vayshan is also pretty good, starting skills kinda ok and a decent specialty. But he's not as good as Sinitar and Yrwanna in my opinion.

Kythra is also a tricky one like Lethos. Her specialty is below average (Minotaurs are not very good creatures), but she starts with the 2% Leadership perk. If you make good use of it with Empathy (or even try out a more might approach with Retribution), then Kythra becomes a very good hero.

Sorgal... hmm, one of the worst heroes. The specialty is below average and starting skills are not that great... still he's not as bad as Yrbeth.


?

Wouldn't Vayshan's light be dimmed because of the nerf to Dungeon's creeping?

Lethos is devastating.  He's not tricky at all considering he starts with Decay.  Mass Decay/ Earth Slippers for the buggers you miss makes for easy creeping.

Of the Dungeon heroes my fav 3 would be Lethos, Kythra, and Yrwanna, not necessarily in that order.  For a newcomer, Sinitar might be the best bet.  Click *boom* doesn't require a whole lot of strategy.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted December 23, 2008 10:19 PM

On the other hand Sinitar is not about *boom* either. Warlocks have great flexibility when it comes to effective builds, Sinitar just happens to also have an easier creeping.
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Juoksentelisinkohan?

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted December 23, 2008 10:34 PM

It would seem that with his starting skill package, Sinitar's career path is laid out for him.  Starting Destro might be one thing.  But when you throw in Sorc, you know he's gonna be magic oriented.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted December 23, 2008 10:38 PM

Typically a warlock always picks destructive even as a skill with secondary role.
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Juoksentelisinkohan?

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