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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 13, 2009 12:20 AM |
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believers in the stuff that doesn't exist
Lack of belief is not the same thing (excluding some people who may have fanatical views) If all the evidence in the world were brought against God, that wouldn't change the mind of a believer (a person of faith), as he believes. Most atheist would be happy to acknowledge God, if there were evidence for it. If God were to show his might to a believer of atheism, member of the Church of Atheism, he would still denounce Him.
But the popular brand of atheism tody is not disbelief in God. It is belief that God does not exist and is antitheistic.
Exactly what evidence do you propose indicates God does not exist?
The existence of the universe is evidence for the existence of God. The universe could not magically appear from absolute nothing with no cause. The first cause had to be an eternal Creator.
I would say there are a number of things that point to the existence of a God and nothing that points to God not existing. Atheism is indeed a philosophy that must be taken on faith, not fact.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 13, 2009 09:32 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 09:33, 13 Mar 2009.
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But then I was right. I didnt say all that 80% were atheists. Just that 80% didnt believe in any god etc.
Also very poor countries dont count, because they dont have any good education etc.
Life force means soul and mediation I think.
Also Buddhism isnt a religion so thats 22%.
Well, I have read that the workers in Egypt did get well paid.
And Easter is a spring festival and the tradtion lives on here.
Our christmas is still called Yule. We have one "festival" for each season. Christmas = Winter Festival, Easter = Spring Festival, Midsummer = Summer Festival and Halloween = Autumn Festival.
edit: MVHAAHHAHA your other report said that 20-80% are atheists.
I guess they count the life force thing as atheism as there is no god in it.
So that means that there are really 80% atheists here.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 13, 2009 10:10 AM |
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why do you so badly care whether the people in your country are atheists or not?
Do you need some sort of moral backup from the majority, else you will not be sure of your own beliefs and disbeliefs?
It's very typical, I know - most people (excluding nonconformists and aconformists) want to fit into majority, but it's also annoying. Can't you think for yourself?
If 100% Poland was atheistic, I wouldn't give a flying **** since majority can't really influence me in any way.
Especially when it comes to religion and music 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Ednaguy
Supreme Hero
My water just broke! No, wait.
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posted March 13, 2009 10:37 AM |
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Also very poor countries dont count, because they dont have any good education etc.
In that case rich countries doesn't count either because they don't need anything from gods and deities.
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Also Buddhism isnt a religion so thats 22%.
Buddhism is considered a religion by most people.
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Our christmas is still called Yule. We have one "festival" for each season. Christmas = Winter Festival, Easter = Spring Festival, Midsummer = Summer Festival and Halloween = Autumn Festival.
Yes, but "your" easter and christmas still contains a lot of things imported from Christianity.
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So that means that there are really 80% atheists here.
I didn't get that 
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"Edna, there's a special, tiny, tiny place in hell, waiting just for you... "
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted March 13, 2009 11:38 AM |
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Edited by Minion at 11:50, 13 Mar 2009.
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Exactly what evidence do you propose indicates God does not exist?
I haven't said that I have evidence for that, neither do I have evidence against Undines, the water spirits. Quote:
The existence of the universe is evidence for the existence of God. The universe could not magically appear from absolute nothing with no cause. The first cause had to be an eternal Creator.
That is no evidence for creator. That is seeing a hole in our understanding and filling it with God. The universe itself can have existed for eternity.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted March 13, 2009 06:12 PM |
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Round 2
*DING*
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But then I was right. I didnt say all that 80% were atheists. Just that 80% didnt believe in any god etc.
God can be a life force, the force that drives forward. I fit the protestant bill and I believe God is a driving force... Strange, huh?
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Also very poor countries dont count, because they dont have any good education etc.
America, Spain and Italy are third world countries? *le gasp*
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Life force means soul and mediation I think.
Or the thought the God is the driving force, the spirit that acts as an engine to all life.
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Also Buddhism isnt a religion so thats 22%.
I agree that Buddhism is more a life style, but give me a sec to look things up.
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Buddhists recognize him as an awakened teacher who shared his insights to help sentient beings end their suffering by understanding the true nature of phenomena, thereby escaping the cycle of suffering and rebirth (saṃsāra), that is, achieving Nirvana.
Buddhism has ideas about the afterlife... Pretty religious...
Buddhists have monks... Who occasionally pray...
Yes, it's totally not a religion, your argument is ferpect!
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Well, I have read that the workers in Egypt did get well paid.
Let's see... (side note: peasants were about 90% of the population.)
1) There were virtually no slaves in Egypt, yet peasants worked so hard, they might as well've been slaves.
2) Peasants are property. If a pharaoh donates land to a noble, the peasants belong with that land.
3) Peasants and cattle are counted when a noble wants to make an estimate of how rich he is.
4) Women aren't counted. they are worth less than cattle.
5) Peasants are deivided in work forces of five men.
6) families are torn apart and put to work in different work forces.
7) When a farmer can't work (for instance, whern the Nile flooded, so about 6 months a year or so) he's put to work on the pyramids.
8) If a farmer doesn't work hard enough, he'll be whiplashed or he'll lose limbs or a toe or a finger.
9) If you want to get rich quick by raiding tombs, decapitation awaits you.
10) Before harvest, the tax collector in service of the Pharaoh arrives and estimates the amount that belongs to the Pharaoh. the good news is that the family can have what the Pharaoh leaves behind! 
This is about peasants... The Jewish people were slaves!
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And Easter is a spring festival and the tradtion lives on here.
No... Jesus was resurrceted on Easter day and easter season starts fifty days before Pentecost.
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Our christmas is still called Yule. We have one "festival" for each season. Christmas = Winter Festival, Easter = Spring Festival, Midsummer = Summer Festival and Halloween = Autumn Festival.
I hate to break it to you, but Christmas (CHRIST (as in Jesus Christ) MAS(s) as in a christian gathering) and Easter are religious holidays. Halloween is Sauhain-festival which comes from a primitive German religion that believed that the spirits of the dead wandered the streets on the twilight of that particular day and dressing up like one of the ghosts would make sure you're not attacked.
And midsummer is something I never heard of.
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edit: MVHAAHHAHA your other report said that 20-80% are atheists.
I guess they count the life force thing as atheism as there is no god in it.
46-80%... Twice the difference
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So that means that there are really 80% atheists here.
If a professor is making guesses, how'd you know?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 13, 2009 06:36 PM |
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Lol I know myself that god has nothing with the life force things here. Its very common in the newspapers that it says "Try the new super meditation method! Strengthens your soul and life force, which makes you look hot!".
Lots of people believe in religion in all those countries. The US just has it becomes there are lots of jews that migrated there after WW2 and that there are many homo sapeins es negros (lol racist ).
The jews are lying about that they were slaves as usual.
No, Easter was stolen by chrisitans and "adopted" into a religious holiday. I see no mention of Jesus supposed ressurection of easter here. You go and collect eggs and have feathers and eat good food etc.
Christmas is not called Christmas here. Its called Yule. Sure, there are some religious moments but thats just tradtion and atleast in my family we dont have anything religious.
Its just cozy and nice with old traditions.
I know Halloween comes from Germany and Germany is close to Sweden. The vikings or something probably bought Halloween here.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted March 13, 2009 06:54 PM |
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Lots of people believe in religion in all those countries. The US just has it becomes there are lots of jews that migrated there after WW2 and that there are many homo sapeins es negros (lol racist ).
The jews are lying about that they were slaves as usual.
Did you look at the percentage of Jews? Judaism has only 0.22% of the world religions... And, please, you made two racist comments, which makes it hard to continue this. In fact, i'll probably make this my last post, since you insist on saying certain things over and over, despite the fact they're wrong...
Consider the option that you're wrong and you'd do much better in these arguments. Also, I won't act like JJ and argue semantics, because those things want to make me kill myself, since they slow down what the argument's about.
And Belgium is a Roman-catholic country, come to think of it... About half of France is still religious. Honestly, you'll have to face the fact religion is here to stay. Marx had an interesting theory, but it's wrong, since the masses still believe, even if they live in a land of plenty.
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No, Easter was stolen by chrisitans and "adopted" into a religious holiday. I see no mention of Jesus supposed ressurection of easter here. You go and collect eggs and have feathers and eat good food etc.
Christmas is not called Christmas here. Its called Yule. Sure, there are some religious moments but thats just tradtion and atleast in my family we dont have anything religious.
Its just cozy and nice with old traditions.
Believe me, They're very christian holidays.
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I know Halloween comes from Germany and Germany is close to Sweden. The vikings or something probably bought Halloween here.
I meant Germanic. Which means about half of the northern 'barbarians' in the time of the roman empire, but my point is that it's also a religious event, no matter what ya be sayin' to me, man
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Lol I know myself that god has nothing with the life force things here. Its very common in the newspapers that it says "Try the new super meditation method! Strengthens your soul and life force, which makes you look hot!".
Why would the article ask about New age stuff, when it's about reliogion. My guess would be that the intent of the question was whether they believed in a universal force or a higher being.
(I'm filling this in with the Christian religion, because that's the only one I have extensive knowledge of.)
Look, people believe in a spirit. So do the christians when they make a cross gesture:
"In nomine patri, fili e spiritu sancta, amen."
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 13, 2009 11:55 PM |
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@Elodin
Quote:
The existence of the universe is evidence for the existence of God. The universe could not magically appear from absolute nothing with no cause. The first cause had to be an eternal Creator.
Wow, if that isn't a textbook example of a Strawman Argument, I'm not sure what is.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 14, 2009 01:24 AM |
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Yes, life force here is very New Age which I dont consider religion
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 14, 2009 08:01 AM |
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The existence of the universe is evidence for the existence of God. The universe could not magically appear from absolute nothing with no cause. The first cause had to be an eternal Creator.
That is no evidence for creator. That is seeing a hole in our understanding and filling it with God. The universe itself can have existed for eternity.
No, the universe could not be eternal. That theory was debunked long ago.
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Lots of people believe in religion in all those countries. The US just has it becomes there are lots of jews that migrated there after WW2 and that there are many homo sapeins es negros (lol racist  .
The jews are lying about that they were slaves as usual.
No, they are not lying though some people like to lie about them. There is reason to believe the Jews were in fact slaves in Egypt. And what is the "as usual" bull? Saying a whole race of people are liars is rather bigoted and racist.
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No, Easter was stolen by chrisitans and "adopted" into a religious holiday. I see no mention of Jesus supposed ressurection of easter here. You go and collect eggs and have feathers and eat good food etc.
No, Easter was not stolen by Christians. Easter is a celebration of the resurrection of Christ.
The Old Covenant prophets predicted the Christ would be God born into the world as a man through a virgin in Bethlehem. Christ would perform miracles, ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, be betrayed by a friend for 30 pieces of silver, have his hands and feet pierced, die for our sins, rise again, and pour out his Spirit on his people.
There are people who lie and say Christianity was stolen from paganism but it is just that. Lies.
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Christmas is not called Christmas here. Its called Yule. Sure, there are some religious moments but thats just tradtion and atleast in my family we dont have anything religious.
Its just cozy and nice with old traditions.
Christmas. Christ-mas. Yeah, as an atheist I am sure you attatch no meaning to Christmas but that does not change the fact that it celebrates the birth of Christ.
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@Elodin
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The existence of the universe is evidence for the existence of God. The universe could not magically appear from absolute nothing with no cause. The first cause had to be an eternal Creator.
Wow, if that isn't a textbook example of a Strawman Argument, I'm not sure what is.
No, it is referencing the laws of thermodynamics.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 14, 2009 09:37 AM |
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JJ & TheDeath. I think you consider most atheist to be extreme atheists that think in the lines of "there is no God for 100% certainty" I think that most atheists think that the probability of god is not zero, it is just so slim that it is pointless to believe in it. There's an infinite number of things that some people at one time or another have believed in, and an infinite number of things that nobody has believed in. If there's not the slightest reason to believe in any of those things, why bother? That is the line of reasoning behind most atheists.
That's not atheism, that's doubt.
Atheism is the absence of any belief in the existance of any god(s).
I don't think, by the way, that there is any serious evidence AGAINST the existance of any god(s).
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Stratos
Hired Hero
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posted March 14, 2009 09:48 AM |
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There are alot of pages.We believe in what we read in our history.We are raised from our fathers from our own race to wrship a certain deity.Now in these times it seems people want proof.It is hard for some to believe that there is a deity without proof.To others just believing is what helps you carry on.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted March 14, 2009 10:08 AM |
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Halloween stems from a Celtic Tradition (though as most things it could have roots farther back). Originally named Samhain (spelling?) it was supposed to be held on the last day of summer (Nov 1 in the Celtic Calender). The spirit and the physical world were believed to be the closest at that time, and a festival (to make a long story short) was held in order to help prevent the living from becoming possessed. The church later 'modified' this belief during it's 'expansion' (in order to ease transition after they forced people to worship their god).
Much of the current christian practices are actually taken from other religions and modified to help during this 'expansion'. I know this is all offtopic, but please bear with me. I think a lot of people are missing the point, and not seeing the larger picture. (No offense meant).
Most of our modern morals stem from religious teachings. Sure some are a little dated and need modified, but I am not sure that I would want to live in a world that never developed them. Look how bad the world has been up to now, do you really want to contemplate what it would have been like without any laws or morals?
Heck we might not even have modern medicine if it wasn't for religion. It was often the shaman(medicine man, whatever you want to call them) that used medicine in ancient times. No religion..no shaman or medicine man.
Now laws and medicine MIGHT have developed anyhow, no way of knowing. Religion still does a lot of good today, even if people only focus on the negative. I've derailed this enough however, back to the topic in hand.
I believe one of the 'rules' of science is that matter and energy can not be created. They just change forms. So, in laymans terms, explain to me where exactly the matter and energy came from for the big bang to take place? Since it can not be just created (believe it is Newtons (?) first law?) it had to come from somewhere...or am I again misunderstanding a basic principle of sciene?
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Message received.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 14, 2009 02:00 PM |
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One thing i liked about communism was that they forbid the use of religion.
I am not agaisnt religion.I just do not like as how people with "Spirit" try to influence and change my mind,how atheists will not get a job cuz they employer thinks you are a threat or do not believe in a superior entity.Yeah,USA is a third world country for that.
Marx ftw
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted March 14, 2009 05:25 PM |
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atheists will not get a job cuz they employer thinks you are a threat or do not believe in a superior entity.Yeah,USA is a third world country for that.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted March 14, 2009 05:34 PM |
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Since it can not be just created (believe it is Newtons (?) first law?) it had to come from somewhere
It's the law of lavoisier.
And the Romans were the first good surgeons (because they did so many wars, they had good practice on the dying soldiers, I guess), so I don't know about medicine...
Ethics would come from the state, but I can agree that the first source of morals would be religion.
And you do not seem to get my point, xerox. As I said I will say nothing more until you grasped what i wanted to say.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 14, 2009 06:22 PM |
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Quote:
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atheists will not get a job cuz they employer thinks you are a threat or do not believe in a superior entity.Yeah,USA is a third world country for that.
I said that the US is too much centered about religion.When you try to enter a job,they ask you what religon you are.If you choose atheist,they probably will not accept you.So you probably must say Chistian so that they will accept you.
Why can't humans leave religion for private and not ask for it anymore?
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 14, 2009 06:54 PM |
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The existence of the universe is evidence for the existence of God. The universe could not magically appear from absolute nothing with no cause. The first cause had to be an eternal Creator.
And I thought this is quite a serious thread....but with arguments like this, it turns into a first grade quarrel....
Oh and btw...Who created God then?
What did he do between his "birth" and the day he started to create the universe? Wasn't this time pretty boring?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted March 14, 2009 06:57 PM |
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I can finally add my oponion to this thread. I have so many times looked at this thread and thought, what is the fuzz about? Now I see.
Not that I am going to read all the posts here, but I will finally raise my voice and tell you what I think!
My first statement is: I would love to fully believe in god, in all his being and so on. I think it is a really beautiful thought and I actully think it fits my person very well.
I love a good story, I love fantasy and what is unreal. why do you think I love fantasy thing?
But I just can't believe that there is one sole creator that watches over us! I can't. Perhaps I won't, I am not sure about that.
My second statement is: It is just a couple of men who wrote a good book.
I go to school, Gymnasium(High school) and we got religion. And I i have read about religion, studied, not to a fully extent but I know what is worth knowing!
Please, I do not to discuss this statement but I have learned that those who wrote the bible didn't meet eachother, didn't even know eachother and their background was REALLY different which gives them different points of view on it all (we are talking about the new testament here )
How can you believe a book that was writting by different persons that didn't communicate? I just can't.
Did you know that there were two creation stories, the one with 7 days and the one with Adam & Eve? I didn't until this year!
There are to many mistakes and I can have that. I am no longer naive..
and then I will quickly talk about the time we live in now!
I will not generalise but so far religion hasn't brough much happiness and joy.
Islam is actully not an evil religion! I see that and I understand but in my eyes they misinterpret the Koran!
And the christians like we are any better? The middleages bloodshed = our fault.
And even now a days there are groups of christians that totally forget about the beautiful things of the bible!
The media just doesn't focus on the christians, to the muslims disadvantage!
The jews are just as bad as the christians they think they own Israel. OMG read your history people!..
I went to church this christmas and I felt bad. I felt really bad. I didn't feel that romantic feeling. You know it is a tradition in our family and well. It made me sad. so sad.
My teacher has told me that I wasn't suppose to be this critic and she didn't want the classes to do this to me, but I take this as my hurdle!
I gave up believing in god.
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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