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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted May 17, 2007 12:05 AM |
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Where did you learn that? (just curious. I've seen videos of Africa, and it seems very religious and ritualistic in one form or another.)
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 17, 2007 12:31 AM |
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Around 40% of all africans are islamic (mostly north africa), 48% christians, 10% animism (traditional).
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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jlewlotr
Hired Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 04:38 AM |
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Edited by jlewlotr at 04:41, 17 May 2007.
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Titanium Alloy, I think to understand what Death is talking about, you have to look at it from his point of view. Yes there are millions of people who are starving and suffering in the world, but who will be closest to God in the eternal afterlife? They will. I think the point is, living on Earth is only temporary, a test if you will, and that life after death is eternal. If you (as an atheist proposing the idea of "if God exists...") ask why a loving God would let so much evil in the world, you must look at it wholely from Death's point of view to see why. Hope this makes sense.
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angelito
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posted May 17, 2007 09:58 AM |
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But how can 3 days old babies proof their "worthy" to be near to god in afterlife?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted May 17, 2007 10:20 AM |
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Quote:
I kinda doubt that...
1) Chinese people
2) Indian people
3) Japanese people
4) Almost entire Africa
5) Atheists
None of them believes in the 'Abrahamic' god...
I didn't make the statistics, but its 54%..
Pink: Abrahamic
Yellow: Dharmic
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Titanium Alloy, I think to understand what Death is talking about, you have to look at it from his point of view. Yes there are millions of people who are starving and suffering in the world, but who will be closest to God in the eternal afterlife? They will. I think the point is, living on Earth is only temporary, a test if you will, and that life after death is eternal. If you (as an atheist proposing the idea of "if God exists...") ask why a loving God would let so much evil in the world, you must look at it wholely from Death's point of view to see why. Hope this makes sense.
I understand what you're trying to say.
But I also understand that you just completely made that up in order to justify something that has no other justification other than GOD IS IMAGINARY. there is no other explanation.
Why are those people closest to god in the afterlife? because god caused them to suffer in this life? So we have to suffer in this life to be close to god? That doesn't make sense at all. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near such a sadistic god.
The Deaths point of view is the same as yours. That of a theist who can do nothing but automatically make up justifications for situations like this.
There is no answer for the question,
Why does god hate amputees?
Maybe we should just kill our children as soon as they are born, so that they a) suffer, and b) have no chance to commit sin and THEREFORE will DEFINATELY go to heaven. good idea?
well that's what some christians have done anyway.
____________
John says to live above hell.
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baklava
Honorable
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Mostly harmless
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posted May 17, 2007 10:27 AM |
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Quote:
Around 40% of all africans are islamic (mostly north africa), 48% christians, 10% animism (traditional).
Really? Didn't know that... Thought at least 50-55% is islamic and at least 25% traditional...
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I didn't make the statistics, but its 54%..
Alright alright... touche... 
Where did you find the stats btw?
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TitaniumAlloy
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Professional
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posted May 17, 2007 10:59 AM |
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Really? Didn't know that... Thought at least 50-55% is islamic and at least 25% traditional...
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I didn't make the statistics, but its 54%..
Alright alright... touche...
Where did you find the stats btw?
Good old google, you know how it is 
nah but I knew it was around half (actually I thought it was more)
but the diagram itself is from Wikipedia.
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John says to live above hell.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted May 17, 2007 12:37 PM |
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But why are the Czech republic and Bosnia marked much lighter than other countries in Europe? Like they're Dharmic 
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 17, 2007 02:26 PM |
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The lighter it is means less %. It doesn't mean theyre dharmic but it means less of the population is abrahamic. Maybe other religions or atheist I guess.
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John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 17, 2007 06:24 PM |
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@TitaniumAlloy:
A whole lot of replies to read through
I'll explain the "Why-God-made-the-world-this-way" thing.
First about the 'putting there the serpent to tempt humans' idea: did the serpent changed Adam's or Eve's personality? Did it made him evil? No, he only unleashed his desire for control, power, etc.
The idea is, you let a criminal loose, he starts to show his 'personality'. If you force and chain him up, and he can't move, that doesn't mean he is peaceful or good -- you force him to stay there.
It's like in Lord of the Rings. Suppose God gave Frodo the ring. He asked: "What will you do with it?". If Frodo said "use it to gain power", then it obviously meant he was evil or simply a tyran.
If his response was the opposite, he was good.
But even if God did not give Frodo the ring in the first scenario, that wouldn't make Frodo less evil.
And of course you don't want us to comprehend why God works in mysterious ways (I know it's a saying)? If we would answer that, we would know His thoughts -- and then it wouldn't be this way anymore (perhaps everyone would believe in God then which obviously isn't happening). We don't know why God acts in a specified manner, just as we don't know why time flows.
About the fire with fire thing:
Ok, suppose elves tortured orcs to save 1000 elves. Now, what do we have in the aftermath?
1000 elves (and a bit more) which have nothing but lost their honour, dignity and morality. They are no better than orcs themselves.. they could as well mutate into orcs.
And it even seems ironic -- they killed so many orcs, just so they become orcs. It's the same as saying 'saving 1000 orcs' instead of elves.
The idea is, if they truly wanted to save 'orcs' (because saving 1000 elves by torture makes them orcs), they could as well kill themselves and let the enemy orcs free from being killed.
What makes them different than orcs? in this scenario?
But of course the actual LotR elves are different because they do not act through the ways of the orcs. That's why I am fascinated by elves in usual fantasy And Tolkien as well because he was the one who (I believe) looked from this perspective.
If terrorists torture hostages, your response should not be to torture them as well -- or if torture is against the law (i hope ), should you really accuse them of that? Aren't the 'secret services' doing that thing as well, which supposedly makes them no different than terrorists themselves?
What is the difference between a terrorist and a government agent who both use the same methods? oh yeah I forgot, the agent respects the law (even if he tortures!) while the terrorist doesn't (with torture).
Take it from a different sidepoint:
Suppose some aliens visited us. They are evil and cannot be harmed by anything physical at all. They destroy us, torture us, and conquer us. They leave nothing behind but dust and destruction.
Now suppose we were given 'the ring' in LotR, which has the power to stop the Aliens.
What would you do? Naturally you go for it and stop them, why not afterall, you should live and they should die, yes?
But no, you see, humans think Aliens 'deserve' to be tortured as well, conquered, etc.. so we go to their planet and destroy them, torture them, conquer them, with the ring.
Look from a neutral position (like from the Sun).
What do you see?
Specie Aliens attack Specie humans, with evil and cruel methods. Specie humans retaliate with the ring and do the same things to specie Aliens.
Are we better than them? Do we deserve to live more than them? Do we deserve to be called 'better' than the Aliens? Why? We have used the same methods as them, so is there really a difference?
If you call the Aliens evil, then we are evil as well.
And yes, they are evil in this scenario, but so are we.
There isn't a difference. Just because you want to live (and possibly do anything to keep it that way, including doing evil if it helps you), doesn't mean you are good necessarily. The evil Aliens want to live as well. If we were different than them perhaps we would be a better specie. But now, frankly, it doesn't matter who wins or loses. It will still be evil.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 06:35 PM |
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So u say every kind of punishment is evil?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 17, 2007 06:47 PM |
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Quote:
So u say every kind of punishment is evil?
well I was just saying that you should not retaliate with the same methods (or even attack them directly, without retaliating, i.e attack before they attack).
Punishment is not evil by itself -- it depends how it's done.
For example, suppose greedy orcs started to conquer and finally disturbed the elves in their forests/etc.. defending themselves is also a form of 'punishing' for the orcs (because orcs die).. however, punishing them with their methods makes you the same as them (evil as orcs are evil).
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jlewlotr
Hired Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 08:32 PM |
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Titanium Alloy, I think to understand what Death is talking about, you have to look at it from his point of view. Yes there are millions of people who are starving and suffering in the world, but who will be closest to God in the eternal afterlife? They will. I think the point is, living on Earth is only temporary, a test if you will, and that life after death is eternal. If you (as an atheist proposing the idea of "if God exists...") ask why a loving God would let so much evil in the world, you must look at it wholely from Death's point of view to see why. Hope this makes sense.
I understand what you're trying to say.
But I also understand that you just completely made that up in order to justify something that has no other justification other than GOD IS IMAGINARY. there is no other explanation.
Why are those people closest to god in the afterlife? because god caused them to suffer in this life? So we have to suffer in this life to be close to god? That doesn't make sense at all. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near such a sadistic god.
The Deaths point of view is the same as yours. That of a theist who can do nothing but automatically make up justifications for situations like this.
There is no answer for the question,
Why does god hate amputees?
Maybe we should just kill our children as soon as they are born, so that they a) suffer, and b) have no chance to commit sin and THEREFORE will DEFINATELY go to heaven. good idea?
well that's what some christians have done anyway.
That is not the point either. And I didn't just come up with that. What I'm saying is that (in the case that God exists) life is so insignificant compared to what exists beyond it. But that doesn't mean you go kill people or let people starve in order to "send" them to heaven. That is ridiculous. And from my previous posts, you shouldn't be expecting me to think that way. Those of us who are privileged are supposed to share what we have with those who are not. God gives us trials to test our will. An amputee may suffer from not having a limb, but he may end up being a better person than if he had that limb. He will be much stronger later in life for having been through that hardship than someone who takes having all four limbs for granted. Hardships are supposed to make you stronger, and give you a deeper outlook on life. People without many apparent hardships have one of their own. They need to make sacrifices for others, since no one really deserves what they are born with until they use it for a good cause. Regardless of whether or not you believe in God, people need to do what they can to make the lives of those who suffer easier.
Anyway, you seem like a pretty open minded person, so don't let this debate close it up.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 08:57 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 20:58, 17 May 2007.
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Quote:
The lighter it is means less %. It doesn't mean theyre dharmic but it means less of the population is abrahamic. Maybe other religions or atheist I guess.
I don't know about Czech republic (but they're quite abrahamic as far as I know) but I can tell you that in Bosnia over 90% of population is islamic (abrahamic)... That's why it seemed strange to me
Quote:
For example, suppose greedy orcs started to conquer and finally disturbed the elves in their forests/etc.. defending themselves is also a form of 'punishing' for the orcs (because orcs die).. however, punishing them with their methods makes you the same as them (evil as orcs are evil).
That's the good thing about fantasy - you know which races are good and which are bad. But you can't really cathegorize humans like that...
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What I'm saying is that (in the case that God exists) life is so insignificant compared to what exists beyond it.
And what in case of reincarnation? Life after life after life... Regard them all as insignificant and you're trapped in an endless hellish circle of misery
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An amputee may suffer from not having a limb, but he may end up being a better person than if he had that limb.
 Yeah, OR he could end up as a good person without losing a limb...
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He will be much stronger later in life for having been through that hardship than someone who takes having all four limbs for granted.
Dude, very few things are granted in life, but I kinda tend to believe that our limbs are among them Imagine we have to pay for our limbs...
Leg tax! Everyone with both legs - 50 bucks...
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 17, 2007 09:04 PM |
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That's the good thing about fantasy - you know which races are good and which are bad. But you can't really cathegorize humans like that...
Humans are in fantasy as well.
By the way, it's just philosophy stuff...
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And what in case of reincarnation? Life after life after life... Regard them all as insignificant and you're trapped in an endless hellish circle of misery
Well, the thing that's called your 'brain' or mind is the thing that makes you live or feel or touch, or your personality.. because the limbs are just objects.
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Dude, very few things are granted in life, but I kinda tend to believe that our limbs are among them Imagine we have to pay for our limbs...
Leg tax! Everyone with both legs - 50 bucks...
You forgot the extra foot tax -- another x10 bucks, but it's not added, it's multiplied.. you see, politicians tend to mess up with math, and forgot that addition is not the same as multiplication. This sums to a total of 500 bucks
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted May 17, 2007 09:15 PM |
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Quote:
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The lighter it is means less %. It doesn't mean theyre dharmic but it means less of the population is abrahamic. Maybe other religions or atheist I guess.
I don't know about Czech republic (but they're quite abrahamic as far as I know) but I can tell you that in Bosnia over 90% of population is islamic (abrahamic)... That's why it seemed strange to me
Only 45% of the Bosnian population are Bosniaks, and 90% of them are Muslim - which means less than half of the country.
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angelito
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posted May 17, 2007 09:56 PM |
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Quote:
Hardships are supposed to make you stronger, and give you a deeper outlook on life. People without many apparent hardships have one of their own. They need to make sacrifices for others, since no one really deserves what they are born with until they use it for a good cause...
I will repeat my questions from the former page: How does the death by starvation of a 3 week old baby make it stronger? Or do the parents have to suffer this to become stronger? I don't think this whole theory is any fair...and for sure not "mercyful".
I guess it's more like: "S*it" happens...possible to anyone at any time. Make the best out of it...this is called coincidence.No ones fault."
Those suicide bombers for example...all their victims "suffer death coz they have to be prooven worthy"?
The victims of the al-queida groups who were beheaded and taped on video in the name of allah!....."prooven to be worthy"?
Politicians who died by assassination (J.F.K for example)...."prooven to be worthy"?
Don't u think your theory is a bit far from the truth/reality?
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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jlewlotr
Hired Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 10:39 PM |
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Quote:
Dude, very few things are granted in life, but I kinda tend to believe that our limbs are among them Imagine we have to pay for our limbs...
Leg tax! Everyone with both legs - 50 bucks...
Fair enough
Still though, there are always people who don't have something that maybe most other people have.
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I will repeat my questions from the former page: How does the death by starvation of a 3 week old baby make it stronger? Or do the parents have to suffer this to become stronger? I don't think this whole theory is any fair...and for sure not "mercyful".
Well of course it's sad and everything should be done to prevent that from happening. But honestly, I think those parents, despite their grief, can eventually move on and be stronger people later. And what if that baby does end up in heaven, wouldn't that be merciful to him/her?
In general, it just seems to me that all hardships, if you don't give into despair, build strength and character. If you have it really easy in life, won't even the slightest mishap be devastating for you? It doesn't seem like the people who have everything turn out to be the best people. But the people who go through tough times have wisdom and can easily empathize with others.
As a side note, guys I agree with most of your principles and values etc. I'm just trying to show that, when you propose the idea, "well if God does exist..." you must also include heaven and eternal life after death and so on, because if you don't, then you aren't talking about what we (the believers) believe. 
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted May 18, 2007 08:21 AM |
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Quote:
@TitaniumAlloy:
A whole lot of replies to read through
I'll explain the "Why-God-made-the-world-this-way" thing.
First about the 'putting there the serpent to tempt humans' idea: did the serpent changed Adam's or Eve's personality? Did it made him evil? No, he only unleashed his desire for control, power, etc.
The desire for control and power that god gave us?
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It's like in Lord of the Rings. Suppose God gave Frodo the ring. He asked: "What will you do with it?". If Frodo said "use it to gain power", then it obviously meant he was evil or simply a tyran.
If his response was the opposite, he was good.
But even if God did not give Frodo the ring in the first scenario, that wouldn't make Frodo less evil.
Sure, but that doesn't mean you should go ahead and make a dozen rings for him and give them on a silver platter. Just because someone might want to commit evil doesn't mean you should go out and give them every opportunity to, like god so purposefully does.
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And of course you don't want us to comprehend why God works in mysterious ways (I know it's a saying)?
Now that saying is what people say when they have no reasonable explanation for something. It's a fallback. I dont buy it.
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If we would answer that, we would know His thoughts -- and then it wouldn't be this way anymore (perhaps everyone would believe in God then which obviously isn't happening). We don't know why God acts in a specified manner, just as we don't know why time flows.
Not trying to understand why he does something, it's just what he does is cruel and sadistic.
Use your metaphor of the AI.
You make a computer program and you put two people in it called Madam and Steve. You, being able to control everything, make them excessively susceptible to temptation and a hidden want for evil (to do what you don't want them to do). Don't know why you gave them this, but you did. But Madam and Steve don't do anything. They just go along with their lives eating fruit, like you want them to do, (doing good).
But you're unhappy with this. You want them to do what you don't want them to do, so to speak. So you go out and make a mongoose, that talks (dont ask). Not only can it talk, in perfect diction, but its also very sly. You say hey mr mongoose buddy go out to Madam and Steve and go tell them to eat from the tree which I specifically told them not to. The mongoose says, "why the hell did you tell them not to if you want them to eat it?" You say, "shut up mongoose whos the god here? i work in mysterious ways". So then the mongoose heads out and gets them to do what you dont want them to do (or do want them to do), and then you pretend to be all furious at them for doing what you, in effect, made them do. So then you say "AHA i told you not to!" because you're sadistic and then torture them for the rest of their lives by unleashing all evil on them.
What a great game that would be 
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About the fire with fire thing:
Ok, suppose elves tortured orcs to save 1000 elves. Now, what do we have in the aftermath?
1000 elves (and a bit more) which have nothing but lost their honour, dignity and morality. They are no better than orcs themselves.. they could as well mutate into orcs.
No. Only one elf has done this to save the 1000, the other elves have done nothing.
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And it even seems ironic -- they killed so many orcs, just so they become orcs. It's the same as saying 'saving 1000 orcs' instead of elves.
The idea isn't that they kill so many. No one said anything about 'killing' or 'many'. Just one elf torturing one orc to save thousands. Thats it. Stop changing it
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The idea is, if they truly wanted to save 'orcs' (because saving 1000 elves by torture makes them orcs), they could as well kill themselves and let the enemy orcs free from being killed.
Yes! lets just kill ourselves instead of saving others  
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What makes them different than orcs? in this scenario?
But of course the actual LotR elves are different because they do not act through the ways of the orcs. That's why I am fascinated by elves in usual fantasy And Tolkien as well because he was the one who (I believe) looked from this perspective.
If terrorists torture hostages, your response should not be to torture them as well -- or if torture is against the law (i hope ), should you really accuse them of that? Aren't the 'secret services' doing that thing as well, which supposedly makes them no different than terrorists themselves?
In some cases, the ends justifies the means. Not always, so don't bother giving an example where it doesn't work. But there are some cases where it does, such as the one I said that you skillfully avoided. The end.
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What is the difference between a terrorist and a government agent who both use the same methods? oh yeah I forgot, the agent respects the law (even if he tortures!) while the terrorist doesn't (with torture).
Because the government agent is trying to save lives whilst the terrorist is trying to end them..
The Death, you ignored almost all of the points I wanted to discuss with you....... 
Heres some you might have missed
why give us the need to sleep? the need to eat? grow dirty and smell bad? so exposed to the environment? prone to obesity? common poor eyesight? malfunctioning circulatory, digestive, immune and nervous system? grow bald?
and most importantly, why put the scrotum on the outside?
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So letting all those people die to have a clean conscience is good?
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hink about this.
Why does god hate amputees?
Why doesn't he answer their prayers and heal them, ever? If the bible says, many times, ask (through prayer or whatever) and you will receive. This isn't true regardless of the beliefs of the amputees, is it? Because you never see a limb grow back?
3 out of 4 doctors in America think that god is performing medical miracles everyday.
Yet even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen to this amputee.
Or what about the children dying of starvation in Africa? Why would a loving god ignore these people?
The only prayer that god answers is "god please completely and utterly ignore this prayer".
And anyway, those things aren't so bad of the elves. god likes torture anyway, as in the Genesis. oh and they should have taken the orcs as slaves! That's what the lord wants them to do anyway.
or put them to death, that seems to be a personal favourite of our lord god. especially if they work on the sabbath, then they're definitely dead
*insert numerous examples from the bible where god, if he were alive today, would be considered one of the most morally wrong and evil people about here*
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That is not the point either. And I didn't just come up with that. What I'm saying is that (in the case that God exists) life is so insignificant compared to what exists beyond it. But that doesn't mean you go kill people or let people starve in order to "send" them to heaven. That is ridiculous. And from my previous posts, you shouldn't be expecting me to think that way. Those of us who are privileged are supposed to share what we have with those who are not. God gives us trials to test our will. An amputee may suffer from not having a limb, but he may end up being a better person than if he had that limb. He will be much stronger later in life for having been through that hardship than someone who takes having all four limbs for granted. Hardships are supposed to make you stronger, and give you a deeper outlook on life.
If hardships are good, then why would breaking our children's legs be ridiculous? Why not poke a stick in their eyes?
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People without many apparent hardships have one of their own. They need to make sacrifices for others, since no one really deserves what they are born with until they use it for a good cause. Regardless of whether or not you believe in God, people need to do what they can to make the lives of those who suffer easier.
Why help them, give them an easy life? Didn't god give them a hard life so that they would be miserable, but stronger?
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Quote:
I will repeat my questions from the former page: How does the death by starvation of a 3 week old baby make it stronger? Or do the parents have to suffer this to become stronger? I don't think this whole theory is any fair...and for sure not "mercyful".
Well of course it's sad and everything should be done to prevent that from happening. But honestly, I think those parents, despite their grief, can eventually move on and be stronger people later. And what if that baby does end up in heaven, wouldn't that be merciful to him/her?
Why does the baby deserve to go to heaven? How has it proved itself and become stronger?
Some people who have their children die don't become stronger, they might become depressed and kill themselves, are they just evil?
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In general, it just seems to me that all hardships, if you don't give into despair, build strength and character. If you have it really easy in life, won't even the slightest mishap be devastating for you?
Not necessarily.
But it seems to me like I would be doing my future kids a favour if I disabled them or something, from that point of view.
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It doesn't seem like the people who have everything turn out to be the best people. But the people who go through tough times have wisdom and can easily empathize with others.
Why do those people deserve to have hard times then? How does god choose who has bad times (and thus progress to become better people and go to heaven) and who has an easy life (and so has no opportunity to progress)? You've turned what seems like favouritism from god towards people with easy lives to favouritism from god towards people with hard lives.. Shouldn't all be born equal, if there is a creator?
____________
John says to live above hell.
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jlewlotr
Hired Hero
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posted May 19, 2007 08:55 AM |
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God didn't create anyone to have an easy life. Think of it this way. God gives everyone a challenge and no challenge is greater than what that particular person is capable of handling. We can either rise to the challenge or give up. And sometimes even if you don't "overcome", constantly trying is victory enough.
As for breaking our children's legs, it's not our place to decide what hardships people should face, for the most part. We are simply called to help others, and for some, helping others is their toughest challenge.
As for the newborn dying and going to heaven, they have committed no sins, so they should they have nothing to answer for. For the parents who kill themselves, well they shouldn't do that because it's selfish. They still have the greatest gift of all, their own life. Yes it is very hard and terrible to lose a baby but people are capable of dealing with such things, and turning their lives around to do good things.
And lastly, I think everybody's life is of equal value. The homeless person is the same as the celebrity in God's eyes. People are just given different challenges, and sometimes the challenge might be to use your wealth for others rather than yourself, which can be a very hard thing if you've got a lot of it. Or it can be that you have a chronic injury, or maybe you've lost a loved one. Whatever it is, God wants you to turn it around and make some good out of it. He gave us free will but he also gave us conscience and willpower to control it. (By this I mean having control over yourself, not control over the free will of others)
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