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angelito
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posted May 20, 2007 09:28 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 21:29, 20 May 2007.
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Maybe it would have worked without Prayer too?
Maybe.
Maybe not.
We can't know for sure, now can we? That's the thing about believing 
I guess we do know. Because if it works, it would work ALL THE TIME...and not only because we have nice weather and it is thursday afternoon...
And about "not hurting anyone". I think it will hurt you in the long run. Because people who try to believe in something irreal tend to lose own will and force to manage things by themselves. They always think "god will help me in his own way...". You rarely do your best if u always have in mind "There is someone who will help me if I fail..".
If parents will always do the homework of their children, it will help them kids in a short term. But in the long run, they will fail in their life...
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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SwampLord
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posted May 20, 2007 09:47 PM |
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The whole point of God is that he doesn't do our homework for us. And nowhere is it taught that he will always save you if you fail- that's part of free will.
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baklava
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posted May 20, 2007 10:32 PM |
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I guess we do know. Because if it works, it would work ALL THE TIME...
No it wouldn't.
Like I said, it raises chances. Not forcing things to happen.
Imagine what it would be like if people could "pray out" something definitely. Imagine the misuses that can lead to.
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I think it will hurt you in the long run. Because people who try to believe in something irreal tend to lose own will and force to manage things by themselves.
If you allow yourself to lose your free will through anything, ESPECIALLY faith, then perhaps you don't deserve it anyway.
I think people lose more of their own will through politics and human systems than through gods. But once again, that all depends of what you believe in, and HOW you believe in it.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 21, 2007 12:05 AM |
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The ONLY time that a prayer "works" is where it could have been coincidence. That's why the question of amputees is so important because there's no chance of coincidence, no ambiguity.
That is why prayers never work.
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No it wouldn't.
Like I said, it raises chances. Not forcing things to happen.
Imagine what it would be like if people could "pray out" something definitely. Imagine the misuses that can lead to.
I beg to differ.
God is not a statistician. He doesn't raise probability by a factor.
Jesus and god have stated very clearly that he grants your prayers.
Here:
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.[Matthew 21:21]
And here:
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]
And here:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.[Matthew 7:7]
And here:
Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]
And again: (getting pretty repetitive now)
Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]
And finally:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them. [Mark 18:19]
It couldn't be clearer really.
It's not 'I might if I feel like it' or 'Maybe, if its ambiguous' it's 'I will.'
The only explanation is that prayer never works. 
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Anyhow, about the prayers, there is alas no effective way to find out wether it works or not. Never hurts to try, right? And as long as it indeed doesn't hurt anyone, everbody's welcome to try, right?
Yes there is.
Pray for an amputee to be healed.
3/4 doctors in America think that medical miracles are performed by god every day. So if many people prayed for one amputee to be healed, there has got to be a devout believer or two in there, right? Yet the amputee will not be healed. Because prayers don't work.
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Prayer actually did work for me once too. And it wasn't something that would've most likely happened anyway.
About the Atheism=Religion. Let's look at it.
You believe in something.
Some of what you believe in has no proof.
There are certain things you must or must not believe in to be an atheist.
Atheism is not the anti-religion, it's just another set of beliefs.
Atheism isn't a religion.
I'm not worshiping anything. I'm not praying to the sky. I'm not worried about heaven or hell. I don't spend my time in a church (unless I have to). I don't read ridiculous scriptures. I don't do any senseless festivals or fasting.
And believe in what? The big bang, evolution? NOTHING to do with Atheism.
Believe in the 'non-existence of god'? Don't be ridiculous. You don't have to prove that something is not there. There is no proof for the boogey man, and I still think that he doesn't exist. Does that make me of another religion, the 'no boogey man' religion? If that is the case, you obviously have to believe in every single possible conceivable thing in the world in order to not be in a 'non believers' religion.
Not believing in something that has no proof not does count as a belief. It counts as not believing. That's it.
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John says to live above hell.
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angelito
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posted May 21, 2007 12:25 AM |
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I'm pretty sure one of the "believers" now will say:
You shouldn't always take the Bible literally!
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 21, 2007 12:27 AM |
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What could me construed differently from those texts?
It is simply the plain words of Jesus.
If a believer doesn't believe that those texts are saying the truth then the entire bible is defunct. They must not believe in anything else that Jesus said ever, in any way, if they don't want to take those parts of the bible.
It's not a pick and choose all-you-can-eat buffet.
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John says to live above hell.
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SwampLord
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posted May 21, 2007 03:43 AM |
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I didn't say it's a religion, I said it is a set of beliefs.
Ok, then, so if a scientist makes a mistake in a book, you still have to believe it?
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 21, 2007 08:27 AM |
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What has science got to do with atheism? 
Atheism = don't believe in god.
That's it. It's not a set of beliefs, it's the opposite.
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John says to live above hell.
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baklava
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posted May 21, 2007 03:25 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 15:27, 21 May 2007.
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I don't do any senseless festivals or fasting.
Your problem
Personally, I'm a man of tradition, and whatever my religion is, I like festivals... Besides, here where I live most festivals include unbelievably vast amounts of food, drink, music etc. so it's really about atmosphere
And strangely enough, though not believing in organized religion, I like to hang out at the church... It's like it has a built-in natural air-condition system, plus the candles smell nice
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I'm pretty sure one of the "believers" now will say:
You shouldn't always take the Bible literally!
Some, perhaps. Others, like me, on the other hand, will continue to try to explain to atheist fanatics such as you guys (and as I can see you're more fanatical in atheism than most people in christianity) that the Bible was written by people, not by God, and that it doesn't have anything to do with him/her/it (or whatever is there).
Believers are not inferior creatures compared to atheists as you tend to present them. It is a fact that we have NO IDEA where we came from or what happens out there; and that chances are we are never going to find out. Some people think that a higher power created us - and find different theories for that; different religions and similar - while some stubbornly reject any possibility of that but carefully avoid to answer what could've happened instead. No side has any proof of course. So neither is better or worse.
I gave up on thinking I definitely know whether the higher power (God, if you will) exists or not cause there really is no way we can know. Sometimes there seems like there is a god, sometimes not. Sometimes I feel like there's nothing at all, and sometimes saints appear to me. I've been wrong about things I thought I know quite a few times in my life, so I just refuse to have a stubborn opinion, leaving it subject to change at all times.
Most atheists think that if the biblical God doesn't exist - especially in the way it was described in the Bible itself - no higher power exists at all. Now, for the last time, PLEASE do not mistake a book written by people to control other people for a god. Thanks in advance.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TheDeath
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posted May 21, 2007 04:21 PM |
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Like I said before, we are not discussing phyisics laws here. It isn't a 'fixed' law that should work EVERYTIME, because God is not a machine -- humans NEVER EVER do the same things again, even if we think we're doing it, that's why 'manual work' is imprecise
but think of art -- it's beauty comes from feelings, not from laws -- it is not just a mathematical formula, it is based on feelings.. Scientists call it 'random'.
Believing in God should be an act of feelings, trust, not just 'apparent' doings. If you 'pray' to God, but think inside yourself "Man, I hope this ****ing prayer ends up soon", it's a total waste of time. If you truly love someone, you do it with your 'inside' feelings, not just with your phyisical showings (for example, showing someone that you love, but on the inside you think it's a waste of time). You have to love and pray to God with your thoughts, not with your hands or mouth
If you love your mother, for example, you truly do it on the inside. If you only love her for money and inheritance, but you want to show her that you love her, because otherwise you won't get the inheritance/money, then this is no love at all, not feelings.. God doesn't work like that, and neither precise, just as art doesn't as well.
Before Adam and Eve ate from the tree, there were no amputees if I recall. And before man started wars, there were no human-made deaths as well. God doesn't shield us from our own doings.
If God got rid of the Devil, where would 'evil' humans be happy?? they are defined, and they don't even want to go to Heaven, because it doesn't define them. If you are scared of Hell (and if you're evil, obviously), then you are just confused. You cannot be scared of what you are, of what defines you.
If you have a mind, you can't be scared of it, now can you?
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angelito
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posted May 21, 2007 04:36 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 16:37, 21 May 2007.
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But where else than from the bible do we know about Adam and Eve?
From where else do we know about god itself?
The Koran is written by people and not by god (allah), but all the muslims do what is written there.
If the bible wouldn't exist, we wouldn't have any "modern" religion I think. (We probably would have a "god" for everything...air, luck, water, thunder....etc...like the old greeks had..)
And about "fanatic" atheists. This is really funny.
If someone tells you he meets a ghost every night and plays soccer with him in the clouds, but he is the only one who can see him. He has no evidence, and it only works when he is alone. If someone is watching him (during sleep), the ghost won't appear. So he has no chance to give you a proof.
You still think he should go and see a doctor, or you say: YOU ARE RIGHT! THERE IS A SOCCER GHOST AND HE ONLY PLAYS WITH YOU! 100%!!!!
If you don't believe him, coz he can't convince you, you are a "fanatic" ?
Realism has nothing to do with fanatism....think about that....
____________
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angelito
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posted May 21, 2007 04:38 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 16:39, 21 May 2007.
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Before Adam and Eve ate from the tree, there were no amputees if I recall. And before man started wars, there were no human-made deaths as well. God doesn't shield us from our own doings.
Ever heard about Kain and Abel?
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TheDeath
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posted May 21, 2007 04:39 PM |
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And about "fanatic" atheists. This is really funny.
If someone tells you he meets a ghost every night and plays soccer with him in the clouds, but he is the only one who can see him. He has no evidence, and it only works when he is alone. If someone is watching him (during sleep), the ghost won't appear. So he has no chance to give you a proof.
You still think he should go and see a doctor, or you say: YOU ARE RIGHT! THERE IS A SOCCER GHOST AND HE ONLY PLAYS WITH YOU! 100%!!!!
But if I tell you I'm coming from the future, will you believe me? (and obviously, if I am, what can I tell you to make you believe me?)
perhaps that's the proof that we haven't heard from someone sent back in time -- in fact, perhaps they are sent back, but no one believes them 
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angelito
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posted May 21, 2007 04:49 PM |
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It isn't a 'fixed' law that should work EVERYTIME, because God is not a machine
How do you know?
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Believing in God should be an act of feelings, trust, not just 'apparent' doings. If you 'pray' to God, but think inside yourself "Man, I hope this ****ing prayer ends up soon", it's a total waste of time.
How do you know?
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You have to love and pray to God with your thoughts, not with your hands or mouth
How do you know?
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If you love your mother, for example, you truly do it on the inside.
Yes. And why do I love her? because she is doing things for me. Be it protection, giving me food and clothes, taking care of me in generell. I doubt I would love my mother if she would cut of 1 arm of mine and tell me "this will make u stronger in your mind and will be good for the rest of your life!".
What did god do for me (or anyone) that makes me fall in love with him?
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God doesn't work like that, and neither precise, just as art doesn't as well.
How do you know?
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If God got rid of the Devil, where would 'evil' humans be happy?? they are defined,
So you say bad/evil people were born as bad/evil people already? How do you know?
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and they don't even want to go to Heaven
No, they don't believe there is such things as heaven or hell. Same way as many "good" people think as well.
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If you have a mind, you can't be scared of it, now can you?
So you think bad/evil people are not scared of other bad/evil things? Ask little drug dealers why they don't take all their earned money for themselves instead of giving their "bosses" the most part...
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angelito
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posted May 21, 2007 04:52 PM |
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But if I tell you I'm coming from the future, will you believe me? (and obviously, if I am, what can I tell you to make you believe me?)
That's pretty easy. Just tell me the final scores of 5 (by me) random chosen NBA Basketball games of the year 2008. The chance you will hit those scores by coincidence will be about 1:100.000.000.000.
I will wait till these games are done, and then I may start praising you as my new god
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TheDeath
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posted May 21, 2007 05:03 PM |
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wait a second, I'm from far years away, I don't know what happened around here
but still, I am from the future even if some don't believe me, that won't change the fact
ok, enough off-topic, sorry
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angelito
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posted May 21, 2007 06:55 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 18:56, 21 May 2007.
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but still, I am from the future even if some don't believe me, that won't change the fact
That's true.
But I don't have to prove you are NOT from the future, I just don't believe ya...period.
YOU have to prove it to ME to convince me. Same as with god
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Doomforge
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posted May 21, 2007 08:07 PM |
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And about "fanatic" atheists. This is really funny.
If someone tells you he meets a ghost every night and plays soccer with him in the clouds, but he is the only one who can see him. He has no evidence, and it only works when he is alone. If someone is watching him (during sleep), the ghost won't appear. So he has no chance to give you a proof.
You still think he should go and see a doctor, or you say: YOU ARE RIGHT! THERE IS A SOCCER GHOST AND HE ONLY PLAYS WITH YOU! 100%!!!!
If you don't believe him, coz he can't convince you, you are a "fanatic" ?
Realism has nothing to do with fanatism....think about that....
I don't want to do any god talk, especially in this hilarious thread (mile long posts about anything, no arguments by both sides..-_-) although I have to say that this example is a bad one, sir. Religion can't be compared to some loonatic that says he plays soccer with ghosts. It could be compared to millions of loonatics saying the play soccer with ghosts. But since there is no such soccer ghost movement i believe religion can be compared with no such thing. 
In other words: religion =/= figment of single cracked mind. Better to call it a group mirage or so if you really want to
also, atheist fanatism does exist. People who are desperately trying to prove that god doesn't exist, arguing with everybody.. what for? I really don't care if you do or don't believe, it's none of my concern. And that is OK imo - I'm not trying to prove whatever I believe or don't believe in cuz it makes no sense
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baklava
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posted May 21, 2007 08:19 PM |
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If someone tells you he meets a ghost every night and plays soccer with him in the clouds, but he is the only one who can see him. He has no evidence, and it only works when he is alone. If someone is watching him (during sleep), the ghost won't appear. So he has no chance to give you a proof.
You still think he should go and see a doctor, or you say: YOU ARE RIGHT! THERE IS A SOCCER GHOST AND HE ONLY PLAYS WITH YOU! 100%!!!!
If you don't believe him, coz he can't convince you, you are a "fanatic" ?
Realism has nothing to do with fanatism....think about that....
Your anti-religionism has nothing to do with realism. Throughout history, you have learned that the Church did more evil than good and that makes you bitter about it. As a sign of defiance, you completely refuse to acknowledge that there is a possibility that something besides us exists.
I don't blame you for not liking the Church; but let's be real: there is a chance that God exists (again, not a biblical one), there is a chance that he doesn't.
About the disturbingly unfitting soccer ghost example, I never said that people can SEE the higher power. They can just feel it sometimes. But that doesn't mean anything either. We can't see or hear or use any of our senses about the higher power, that's what makes it higher... You seem to kidna misunderstand the entire concept. But that's ok, there's a huge "IF" above all that anyway. It can a very slippy subject for both sides, and there's no way anyone can accomplish anything besides wage an endless, pointless discussion, which basically is the case here.
I find myself at the neutral side. I neither support nor deny any side; since no matter what you say, you can't know for sure which is right. If you were wise, you'd do that too, instead of arguing on 30 pages and spend endless time typing instead of going out...
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Doomforge
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posted May 21, 2007 08:49 PM |
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I understand angelito, TitaniumAlloy and all other.. look, when we were kids, we felt so proud when we discovered that santa claus doesn't exist. I believe similar mechanism applies here: people feel "wiser" and more "modern" when they refute such "myths". I suspect that angelito/TitaniumAlloy just can't refrain from writing here when they see ppl who still believe in such a "infantile myth". Didn't you argue with your friends that santa doesn't exist when you were 6 or 7?
That's the reason I think such arguing is childish and pointless, btw. As kids, we weren't able to say if santa does or doesn't exist, yet we kept arguing, even though our arguments were truly laughable. Same here. People don't really know, but feel sooooooooooo sure it's almost ridiculous
I'd say, time will tell who is right and who is wrong. Just be patient. Either science will do it, or you'll die and check if there's something on the other side
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