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angelito
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posted May 23, 2007 10:44 AM |
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..I guess I'm off the hook because I don't care if you believe in god or not. You can believe in whatever you want...
If only every "believer" would have that opinion, the world would be much more peacefull than it is right now.
Respect other's opinions and don't blame (or even try to kill!!) them for having a different point of view to things like "God" or "Religion".
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 23, 2007 12:08 PM |
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@ The Death
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Some Christian woman killed her 3 kids thinking it was the only way to save them from hell.
I don't think Jesus ever considered that approach, or even mentioned it.. it is not that simple
Evil should not be done for the sake of good
What if you don't care about yourself going to hell. Like you've already accepted it.
But you don't want the same fate for your kids?
I dno, it just sounds like a pretty stupid system to me.
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First of all, as I repeat myself, is that God, Heaven and all that stuff do NOT work as strict rules or laws, because we're not using the laws of God (as in the laws of physics) to explain a behavior.
How do you know?
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Therefore, God's actions are based on feelings. The 'afterlife judgement' (or whatever the name is), is not based on rules that can be 'abused', but on feelings. If you don't understand me, think of art which cannot be described by some mathematical formula/physic law.
For example, if some parent has a lot of inheritance, but will only give it to his son, if the son loves him, then:
1) the son 'fakes' to love him, apparentely.. but on the inside he's only caring for the inheritance
2) the son truly loves his dad, on the inside. (feelings)
3) the son doesn't care for the inheritance and neither for his dad 
In 1 the son doesn't love his dad, even if visually he appears to be doing it fake. But in truth he doesn't -- and that's what matters. Same as the quote above (with doing evil for the sake of good).
In 2 the son truly loves his dad, I think you get it.
3 was there just for some humour 
Can you not ignore the question?
If you kill your child at birth, will he/she go to a) HEAVEN, or to b) HELL?
There's two options.
Nothing to do with feelings.
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Listen here: I saw God, with feelings.. Isn't that enough proof for you? Maybe we all have a new 'sense' like I said the spiritual sense, but you fail to use/acknowledge it.. but atheists are different than blind people:
That's not proof at all, let alone 'enough'
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Why do blind people just listen to the people that see, and believe them? They should never consider colors as proof, right? since they cannot see them, yet they believe the people with eyes
Of course, atheists don't even want God to exist (even if He is somehow proven) because they like the idea of 'no higher power', since it will make them more 'safe' and powerful -- yeah, power is the human flaw
That is the furthest from the truth. You're just saying that to try and put believers down.
I'd love it if someone proved god to me.
Afterlife, eternal bliss, all sounds pretty nifty. (because we made it up to sound nice and enticing)
But I refuse to believe that god made us with intelligence and then forces us to forgo it in the name of some carpenter's words and ridiculous stories
Maybe god is testing us, and all believers failed
The human flaw is that we want to believe that everything will turn out alright in the end, that everything is ideal. That's why we invented a story and will stick to it to the death.
How is not believing in god giving us power and safety? Don't be ridiculous.
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I recall some quote you gave from someone, which said that God is even less likely to exist than a plane formed out of a Big Bang.. As far as I know, the laws of physics and the existence of matter do not change with successive Big Bangs (therefore the chances are converging to 0 because it only happens once), and they are made in such a way as to sustain life or planes in motion. How come?
By the way, how were the laws of physics created? Surely the Big Bang is not the answer 
First of all you got the quote wrong.
It's a plane formed out of a tornado.
Second who's to say that the big bang happens only once? Perhaps it happens endless times in a repeated cycle? Perhaps there are parallel universes and we are in the one suited to sustain life?
But the argument is that things on earth are complex, therefore god must have created them, as complexity requires an 'intelligent designer'
But a creator must be far more complex than any of it's creations, so therefore god warrants a creator himself more than anything in our universe! So god isn't a suitable answer to the question at all.
That's it.
and The Death:
Well done!
I would like to award you with a medal
You have ignored my directed questions for longer than thought possible!
Heres the post again in case you change your mind
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1. If we kill our children at childbirth, will they go to heaven, or to hell?
2. Why does god never heal amputees, despite any circumstances?
k Thanks
____________
John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
Responsible
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with serious business
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posted May 23, 2007 12:20 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 12:21, 23 May 2007.
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Can you not ignore the question?
If you kill your child at birth, will he/she go to a) HEAVEN, or to b) HELL?
There's two options.
Nothing to do with feelings.
The problem that you don't understand, is that you think like a machine.
Things aren't simple 0s or 1s It's not only true or false
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I'd love it if someone proved god to me.
Afterlife, eternal bliss, all sounds pretty nifty. (because we made it up to sound nice and enticing)
Colors sound pretty nice as well to blind people.
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First of all you got the quote wrong.
It's a plane formed out of a tornado.
Does it matter?
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Second who's to say that the big bang happens only once? Perhaps it happens endless times in a repeated cycle? Perhaps there are parallel universes and we are in the one suited to sustain life?
You got my point wrong.
I said, the Big Bang happened infinite times. I agree.
HOWEVER, the laws of physics, the existence of matter, the energy, 'appeared' only once.
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You have ignored my directed questions for longer than thought possible!
Errr, sorry, I didn't read through the whole thread because when I'm not only for a couple of days, it fills up with 6 pages of text
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Heres the post again in case you change your mind
1. If we kill our children at childbirth, will they go to heaven, or to hell?
Depends. God might as well give them a new chance, or they could suffer because of your actions.
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2. Why does god never heal amputees, despite any circumstances?k Thanks
First, I don't know if he really "never" does that.
Secondly, He isn't the room cleaner to clean after our garbage. Because amputees weren't 'available' if humans did not commit sin or other crazy stuff (wars, etc).
And thirdly, perhaps without some limbs you become a better person, because the brain/mind is what matters mostly. I don't know God's thoughts anyway
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 23, 2007 12:33 PM |
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Can you not ignore the question?
If you kill your child at birth, will he/she go to a) HEAVEN, or to b) HELL?
There's two options.
Nothing to do with feelings.
The problem that you don't understand, is that you think like a machine.
Things aren't simple 0s or 1s It's not only true or false
Well it is. What other options could there be. Purgatory?
It's heaven or hell.
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I'd love it if someone proved god to me.
Afterlife, eternal bliss, all sounds pretty nifty. (because we made it up to sound nice and enticing)
Colors sound pretty nice as well to blind people.
Do they?
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First of all you got the quote wrong.
It's a plane formed out of a tornado.
Does it matter?
Yes it's an entirely different question which you completely misunderstood
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Second who's to say that the big bang happens only once? Perhaps it happens endless times in a repeated cycle? Perhaps there are parallel universes and we are in the one suited to sustain life?
You got my point wrong.
I know. Because your point was based on a misquote and is therefore irrelevant.
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I said, the Big Bang happened infinite times. I agree.
HOWEVER, the laws of physics, the existence of matter, the energy, 'appeared' only once.
How do you know? 
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You have ignored my directed questions for longer than thought possible!
Errr, sorry, I didn't read through the whole thread because when I'm not only for a couple of days, it fills up with 6 pages of text
Thats fine
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Heres the post again in case you change your mind
1. If we kill our children at childbirth, will they go to heaven, or to hell?
Depends. God might as well give them a new chance, or they could suffer because of your actions.
Suffer because of the parents actions? That hardly seems fair.
If I burned down an orphanage, right now, should that affect YOUR chances of going to heaven? I don't see why it should.
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2. Why does god never heal amputees, despite any circumstances?k Thanks
First, I don't know if he really "never" does that.
A leg has never grown back, ever. Regardless of any prayers, any people who truly love/believe, anything, because there is NO ambiguity. When a leg grows back from a prayer, then you can say that he does 'sometimes' do it
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Secondly, He isn't the room cleaner to clean after our garbage. Because amputees weren't 'available' if humans did not commit sin or other crazy stuff (wars, etc).
Oh really? I thought it was
"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! "
and
"No matter what has happened in your past, no matter what is happening in your present, seek out your heavenly Father in prayer as often as you can. Take my word for it -- He loves you and wants to answer your prayers."
God and Jesus are both liars then.
What if a devout loving believer sat down one night and prayed
'Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.'
Would anything happen? Of course not.
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And thirdly, perhaps without some limbs you become a better person, because the brain/mind is what matters mostly. I don't know God's thoughts anyway
It seems odd that he should single out this group.
Why not cut off everyones legs then?
____________
John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 23, 2007 01:08 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 13:09, 23 May 2007.
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How do you know?
Well the Big Bang is just an explosion... explosion based on the laws of physics
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A leg has never grown back, ever. Regardless of any prayers, any people who truly love/believe, anything, because there is NO ambiguity. When a leg grows back from a prayer, then you can say that he does 'sometimes' do it
How do you know? You believe in what the media tells you? (see, belief )
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"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! "
You just take everything literally, phyisically (material) and from a childish view.
I get your 'understanding' of this paragraph, so if I ask that everyone should die, then of course it should happen, based on your conclusions and interpretation of this quote. But of course it has a different meaning. And besides, I did seek a lot of things which were granted for me, and those 'things' didn't have anything to do with material objects, and for me it was a much greater gift. By the way, I don't expect you to believe that God granted me this though
And anyway, amputees ask for their limbs, but perhaps God gives them comfort after all (for example, getting wiser). The 'gift' we seek might not be truly the best gift and perhaps even irrelevant (you don't need limbs to think ).
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"No matter what has happened in your past, no matter what is happening in your present, seek out your heavenly Father in prayer as often as you can. Take my word for it -- He loves you and wants to answer your prayers."
Who says that He doesn't love amputees?
Some amputees I know are much wiser -- perhaps God has shown them a true gift for their prayers (notice I said perhaps, I was not granted such a thing, so I cannot comment on it).
We have to take responsibilities for our actions (the 'past' things), and God loves all of us. But again, do we love Him? we spit in his face (like some of us), and then we ask from Him. Imagine how would a mother feel.
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What if a devout loving believer sat down one night and prayed
'Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.'
Notice the next statement is only my impression, and I don't know much of it (as I have never experienced it), so it's just a possibility:
Maybe God showed them then a lot of things which made them wiser, and they knew cancer was "perhaps" irrelevant for the 'big picture' (for example, the spiritual world, or going to Heaven, or etc...). Maybe He has enlightened them not to limit themselves only to material belongings.
Notice as I said, it's just a thought on the top of my head, and don't think it's 100% accurate if it's true anyway.
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It seems odd that he should single out this group.
Why not cut off everyones legs then?
Like I said, it's not ALL or NOTHING (1s or 0s).. So not all people or no people need to be like that. I don't know God's thoughts, but I do know He loves me (obviously you have to believe in Him first).
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 23, 2007 01:20 PM |
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How do you know?
Well the Big Bang is just an explosion... explosion based on the laws of physics
A singularity hasn't been observed though
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A leg has never grown back, ever. Regardless of any prayers, any people who truly love/believe, anything, because there is NO ambiguity. When a leg grows back from a prayer, then you can say that he does 'sometimes' do it
How do you know? You believe in what the media tells you? (see, belief )
Search yourself if you want.
There is not a single report of a leg ever growing back. You don't really believe that one has
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"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! "
You just take everything literally, phyisically (material) and from a childish view.
How else are we supposed to take it?
Jesus clearly says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it."
What else could he possibly mean?
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I get your 'understanding' of this paragraph, so if I ask that everyone should die, then of course it should happen, based on your conclusions and interpretation of this quote. But of course it has a different meaning. And besides, I did seek a lot of things which were granted for me, and those 'things' didn't have anything to do with material objects, and for me it was a much greater gift. By the way, I don't expect you to believe that God granted me this though
It's one thing to ask for evil and not be granted it.
But to ask for something purely good like curing of a disease.
The only things that you 'think' have been granted to you are things that could have happened by coincidence. There has and never will be a prayer "granted" in a situation where there is no ambiguity, such as the amputee.
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And anyway, amputees ask for their limbs, but perhaps God gives them comfort after all (for example, getting wiser). The 'gift' we seek might not be truly the best gift and perhaps even irrelevant (you don't need limbs to think ).
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"No matter what has happened in your past, no matter what is happening in your present, seek out your heavenly Father in prayer as often as you can. Take my word for it -- He loves you and wants to answer your prayers."
Who says that He doesn't love amputees?
Some amputees I know are much wiser -- perhaps God has shown them a true gift for their prayers (notice I said perhaps, I was not granted such a thing, so I cannot comment on it).
What about dumb*** amputees? Your logic is flawed.
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We have to take responsibilities for our actions (the 'past' things), and God loves all of us. But again, do we love Him? we spit in his face (like some of us), and then we ask from Him. Imagine how would a mother feel.
Some of us spit in his face. Some of us challenge him. Whatever. Some don't, that doesn't change the fact that he entirely ignores them even though he promised he wouldn't.
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What if a devout loving believer sat down one night and prayed
'Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.'
Notice the next statement is only my impression, and I don't know much of it (as I have never experienced it), so it's just a possibility:
Maybe God showed them then a lot of things which made them wiser, and they knew cancer was "perhaps" irrelevant for the 'big picture' (for example, the spiritual world, or going to Heaven, or etc...). Maybe He has enlightened them not to limit themselves only to material belongings.
Notice as I said, it's just a thought on the top of my head, and don't think it's 100% accurate if it's true anyway.
Supposedly god grants many miracles a day. As I said 3/4 doctors believe that god is making medical miracles every day. You yourself said that god has granted you things, in this life.
Why just leave amputees to wait until the afterlife before curing them, when he cures all the other less ambiguous cases all the time?
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It seems odd that he should single out this group.
Why not cut off everyones legs then?
Like I said, it's not ALL or NOTHING (1s or 0s).. So not all people or no people need to be like that. I don't know God's thoughts, but I do know He loves me (obviously you have to believe in Him first).
Ok so not all are in that case. Then what of the people who aren't helped, either through a new leg or through enhanced mind or whatever?
And how do you know he loves you?
____________
John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
Responsible
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with serious business
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posted May 23, 2007 01:49 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 13:55, 23 May 2007.
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A singularity hasn't been observed though
Well the laws of physics must have 'appeared' somehow, and it obviously doesn't involve our 'material world' explanations.
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Search yourself if you want.
There is not a single report of a leg ever growing back. You don't really believe that one has
Of course that's what I said.
You didn't see all amputees -- so you believe in the media/web/internet. This of course doesn't mean there were 'healed' amputees, but that you too based your 'proofs' on beliefs.
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How else are we supposed to take it?
Jesus clearly says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it."
What else could he possibly mean?
Ask 'something' may not be related to material objects.
I want a gun so I can kill people.
I want this world destroyed.
would it happen (and let's assume God exists)?
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The only things that you 'think' have been granted to you are things that could have happened by coincidence. There has and never will be a prayer "granted" in a situation where there is no ambiguity, such as the amputee.
Do you truly believe in the childish "I wanna my baby doll back" and if God does not give it to you, then He doesn't exist?
If you ask for a TV, for example, that indirectly means you ask for happiness. And there might be better ways through which you will be granted, provided you are a pure person.
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What about dumb*** amputees? Your logic is flawed.
What do you mean?
Amputees can as well be 'dumb' and be evil. Or simply they don't want 'wisdom' or whatever.
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Some of us spit in his face. Some of us challenge him. Whatever. Some don't, that doesn't change the fact that he entirely ignores them even though he promised he wouldn't.
He doesn't ignore us. Jesus was a sign he does not. But of course a lot of people don't acknowledge that...
that's not God's fault actually
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You yourself said that god has granted you things, in this life.
Yes, but 'things' doesn't mean objects. He gave me inspiration on my thoughts.
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Why just leave amputees to wait until the afterlife before curing them, when he cures all the other less ambiguous cases all the time?
What do you mean 'wait'?
Let's suppose God gave them limbs. Would they be happy?
Of course!! but they will also want other things (like us with limbs do).
The idea is, limbs are perhaps not the answer to their happiness. And perhaps God has shown them other ways. After all, the 'happiness' of each of us relies in our minds, not in our limbs. Because one could as well not have any limbs, but dream/imagine happiness (and even easier for 'scientists' to think of this, project himself into a virtual world where only his mind guides his actions, he has virtual limbs, etc..).
Thoughts or imagination are also some form of 'virtual' worlds.
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Ok so not all are in that case. Then what of the people who aren't helped, either through a new leg or through enhanced mind or whatever?
They are helped in a way.
Of course they can also be helped by the Devil -- that's why most people who believe in God, but want instantaneous results fall into the Devil's tricks, because the Devil promises them instant satisfaction with their pity desires (through evil means). Such humans have pity desires which the Devil promises, because he likes to manipulate in the end. We only see through our 'pity desires' but we fail to see the 'big picture', so naturally we ask for the pity desires without thinking in perspective or knowing the consequences, which by the way are not apparent at all.
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Off-topic: And then the Devil says: "Foolish mortal, you do not know the power you tamper with." -- quote from Nwn HotU, archdevil Mephisto.
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Now back to topic, magic (not the fantasy magic) is such an example, where most people use it to "revenge" on someone else (voodoo puppets is a classic example  ). Provided you trust the media, there have been such things happening.
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And how do you know he loves you?
The same I know my mom loves me. And yes, most parents love you even if they are poor and don't have any material belongings to give gifts to you. But love is still there.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 23, 2007 02:53 PM |
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Search yourself if you want.
There is not a single report of a leg ever growing back. You don't really believe that one has
Of course that's what I said.
You didn't see all amputees -- so you believe in the media/web/internet. This of course doesn't mean there were 'healed' amputees, but that you too based your 'proofs' on beliefs.
Yep.
I'm not going to assume that it did happen simply because of lack of evidence...?
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How else are we supposed to take it?
Jesus clearly says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it."
What else could he possibly mean?
Ask 'something' may not be related to material objects.
I want a gun so I can kill people.
I want this world destroyed.
would it happen (and let's assume God exists)?
I already mentioned it may excuse evil things, but what about good things like healing?
You're saying it wont work in those cases. That doesn't excuse it not working ever, does it? I don't see the point you're trying to make.
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The only things that you 'think' have been granted to you are things that could have happened by coincidence. There has and never will be a prayer "granted" in a situation where there is no ambiguity, such as the amputee.
Do you truly believe in the childish "I wanna my baby doll back" and if God does not give it to you, then He doesn't exist?
No, I'm asking why god never answers prayers.
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If you ask for a TV, for example, that indirectly means you ask for happiness. And there might be better ways through which you will be granted, provided you are a pure person.
What if you ask for the chance to live? Is there a better way through which you are granted, well, life, provided you are a pure person? Or a new leg?
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What about dumb*** amputees? Your logic is flawed.
What do you mean?
Amputees can as well be 'dumb' and be evil. Or simply they don't want 'wisdom' or whatever.
What if theyre pure of heart, faithful and loving. But they are missing their legs and are dumb as ****.
He and his faithful family all pray for his legs back.
They will never grow back.
This is just an example of why god never answers prayers, and is a damn good one because there is no ambiguity. There is no chance for coincidence, no opportunity to blame something that would have happened anyway on god.
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Some of us spit in his face. Some of us challenge him. Whatever. Some don't, that doesn't change the fact that he entirely ignores them even though he promised he wouldn't.
He doesn't ignore us. Jesus was a sign he does not. But of course a lot of people don't acknowledge that...
that's not God's fault actually
He ignores us in prayers.
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You yourself said that god has granted you things, in this life.
Yes, but 'things' doesn't mean objects. He gave me inspiration on my thoughts.
So you do not believe that god does not grant anything physical?
What about a cure? Does he grant that?
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Why just leave amputees to wait until the afterlife before curing them, when he cures all the other less ambiguous cases all the time?
What do you mean 'wait'?
Let's suppose God gave them limbs. Would they be happy?
Of course!! but they will also want other things (like us with limbs do).
The idea is, limbs are perhaps not the answer to their happiness. And perhaps God has shown them other ways. After all, the 'happiness' of each of us relies in our minds, not in our limbs. Because one could as well not have any limbs, but dream/imagine happiness (and even easier for 'scientists' to think of this, project himself into a virtual world where only his mind guides his actions, he has virtual limbs, etc..).
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Ok so not all are in that case. Then what of the people who aren't helped, either through a new leg or through enhanced mind or whatever?
They are helped in a way.
Of course they can also be helped by the Devil -- that's why most people who believe in God, but want instantaneous results fall into the Devil's tricks, because the Devil promises them instant satisfaction with their pity desires (through evil means). Such humans have pity desires which the Devil promises, because he likes to manipulate in the end. We only see through our 'pity desires' but we fail to see the 'big picture', so naturally we ask for the pity desires without thinking in perspective or knowing the consequences, which by the way are not apparent at all.
Sure, but why did god take their limbs in the first place, though? He's taken them and refuses to give them back. Why those people?
I mean, you're calling me childish
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And how do you know he loves you?
The same I know my mom loves me. And yes, most parents love you even if they are poor and don't have any material belongings to give gifts to you. But love is still there.
Would you know your parents loved you if you never met them, never can meet them, never saw them or any hint that they ever existed except for the word of a strange man in the street?
____________
John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
Responsible
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posted May 23, 2007 03:26 PM |
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I already mentioned it may excuse evil things, but what about good things like healing?
You're saying it wont work in those cases. That doesn't excuse it not working ever, does it? I don't see the point you're trying to make.
Well, the error in this text is the "it won't work" thing.. God doesn't 'work' in a specific way, he ain't a machine. He gives us things, that we only then realize, how pitiful our previous desires were.
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No, I'm asking why god never answers prayers.
What do you mean he never answers? (well of course 'yes' or 'no' isn't the answer)
But it did answer some of my prayers. Even when the 'answer' made me even more confused (when I asked for 'questions' so to speak, no they were not literally questions), but I did understand in time that answer given, which was the 'true' path of the solution.
Of course you'll have to really believe the words in your prayer, not just cite them like pixels/ink. The importance of the prayer comes from your thoughts when you do it, not from the words literally themselves. Like before the example with the son that doesn't love his father, but he makes it in a way so that 'fakely' he does. It won't work with God. The thoughts are important.
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What if you ask for the chance to live? Is there a better way through which you are granted, well, life, provided you are a pure person? Or a new leg?
A new life, kinda is given anyway, with time.
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What if theyre pure of heart, faithful and loving. But they are missing their legs and are dumb as ****.
Maybe I didn't get your question. What does dumb mean? Someone who can't do 1+1 = 11? Or someone who is unwise? Or what?
In my definition, dumb people probably are dumb for a reason. And they require a more enlightened mind (so as to not be dumb) than some legs first -- if they even are good.
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He and his faithful family all pray for his legs back.
They will never grow back.
Maybe he/she will get 'smarter' instead?
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This is just an example of why god never answers prayers, and is a damn good one because there is no ambiguity. There is no chance for coincidence, no opportunity to blame something that would have happened anyway on god.
He answers prayers, but not in the way you expect. If you ask for something directly God will give something that you don't expect, and will later realize.
Or if you ask for 'pitiful desires', you will get a more enligheted version of the world (I'm talking about dumb here), or if you truly want your desires, go ask from the Devil.
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He ignores us in prayers.
Maybe ignores those who don't truly love Him. The problem is that He gives us signs, but we fail to acknowledge them.
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So you do not believe that god does not grant anything physical?
Sometimes He gives physical, but the reason He usually doesn't is because physical things are usually only a pitiful desire.
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Sure, but why did god take their limbs in the first place, though? He's taken them and refuses to give them back.
"God gave, God took. God's name be blessed."
there was a story with a faithful man, harassed by the Devil (in fact, the Devil said to God something along the lines of "I'll show you that this man will spit you, curse you, were it not for his treasury", treasury means his possessions, including money). The Devil actually started to take everything this man had, slowly, one after another... To show God that the man will spit Him when he'll be left with nothing.
The man's reply to this was like in the quote above with "God gave..."
and strangely, in the story, God didn't even take at all. That was perhaps true enlightenment.
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I mean, you're calling me childish
 nope
but your perspective, by taking things 100% literally and logically (either true or false), on religion is childish.
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Would you know your parents loved you if you never met them, never can meet them, never saw them or any hint that they ever existed except for the word of a strange man in the street?
But I can feel them. Scientists call this 'instict'
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 23, 2007 05:29 PM |
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Interesting is, some people here not only believe in something that doesn't exist, they even know what that non-existing "creature" has in mind. How the hell can you know what "god" has in mind? How the hell can you find an "excuse" for why amputees are not healed? You talk to god every sunday noon and he tells ya why he did this, and why he didn't do that?
Those things only come from your fantasy....that's ok. Every person has the right of free fantasy. But I find it pretty funny to try to convince other people of fantasy ideas you have in your own mind!
So god gave Stephen Hawking this "horrible" disease on one hand, but gave him great intelligence on the other hand so he is able to explain why god doesn't exist? Contradiction I think...
He made Einstein very intelligent too, but he didn't suffer any disease. So god takes a dice every time a child is born and hands out goodies? So we all are just part of a big big board game?
Now let's talk about who is childish here.....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Tenaka
Famous Hero
Makes sense
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posted May 23, 2007 05:56 PM |
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Let's stop this discussion...
It's been going on for 30 pages now, and I think when we reach the 35th one, this'll be a bloodbath.
God may exist, and he may not. Unfortunately, there's no way to proof either for 100%. So let's let the people who don't believe in Him, just do what they want, and the people who do, as well! This discussion all started when TitaniumAlloy - I had to look up that name, sorry  - mentioned that he does not believe in God. Great for him! After all, he is a 200 year old Male - or so his profile says -. Of course, a bit of critiscism is alright, and you're free to comment, but 30 pages?
So, well, please, let's all be happy and merry again, because God does(n't) - pick what you want - exist!
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted May 23, 2007 06:25 PM |
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lets not stop this discussion actually...
its been going on for 30 pages now and all sides have made great posts for and against the existence (or worth) of the Abrahamic god
naturally, 99% of those involved will remain in the "camp" they were when the discussion started, but maybe the 1% will "see the light" and change sides (whatever that will take them) ...the rest, will gain something out of this too, even if just a few tips on how to present arguments properly so that a discussion doesn't turn into a bloodbath (even if it does, they will have examples of what not to do)
traditionally, the Other Side has been that section of HC where the touchy topics are touched, its only natural for tempers to rise sometimes... but shying away from this and pulling a disney ethics blanket over us is like admiting we do not have what it takes to deal with these topics ...and I'd like to think that most adults (and even some late teens) have evolved enough for it
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted May 24, 2007 09:28 AM |
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I already mentioned it may excuse evil things, but what about good things like healing?
You're saying it wont work in those cases. That doesn't excuse it not working ever, does it? I don't see the point you're trying to make.
Well, the error in this text is the "it won't work" thing.. God doesn't 'work' in a specific way, he ain't a machine. He gives us things, that we only then realize, how pitiful our previous desires were.
Well that's your idea that you just made up.
The bible, as you said yourself the 'evidence' of god himself says that if we ask for something he will give it, and many people believe that.
It doesn't say "ask for something and I will give you something that you don't really want but trust me anyway"
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No, I'm asking why god never answers prayers.
What do you mean he never answers? (well of course 'yes' or 'no' isn't the answer)
But it did answer some of my prayers.
Coincidence.
The only time when people say that god 'answered their prayers' is when it could easily have happened anyway.
Never do they claim something that could not have happened anyway, because god is imaginary.
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Even when the 'answer' made me even more confused (when I asked for 'questions' so to speak, no they were not literally questions), but I did understand in time that answer given, which was the 'true' path of the solution.
Why does he not answer the prayers of the amputees?
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Of course you'll have to really believe the words in your prayer, not just cite them like pixels/ink. The importance of the prayer comes from your thoughts when you do it, not from the words literally themselves. Like before the example with the son that doesn't love his father, but he makes it in a way so that 'fakely' he does. It won't work with God. The thoughts are important.
You've said that already. It doesn't change the situation. Despite ANY situations, no matter how fervent the believer, prayers never make something that 'could not have happened normally', happen.
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What if you ask for the chance to live? Is there a better way through which you are granted, well, life, provided you are a pure person? Or a new leg?
A new life, kinda is given anyway, with time.
So god just says "wait until the afterlife you dont deserve this one"?
Why does god take away these lives even when prayers ask him not to? He's a pretty cruel bloke you gotta admit
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What if theyre pure of heart, faithful and loving. But they are missing their legs and are dumb as ****.
Maybe I didn't get your question. What does dumb mean? Someone who can't do 1+1 = 11? Or someone who is unwise? Or what?
Does it matter what the definition of dumb is??? Christ
I said why doesn't god heal amputees even if hundreds faithful and loving ones ask for it in prayer.
You said he doesn't because he makes them smart or wise instead. lik here
Maybe he/she will get 'smarter' instead?
But that's simply not true.
What about an amputee who isn't smart and wise like you said?
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In my definition, dumb people probably are dumb for a reason. And they require a more enlightened mind (so as to not be dumb) than some legs first -- if they even are good.
Why give some people an enlightened mind and others not?
Doesn't matter if you're talking about a life or a mind or a pair of legs, it's the same question.
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He and his faithful family all pray for his legs back.
They will never grow back.
Maybe he/she will get 'smarter' instead?
LOL
are you saying all amputees are smart?
there is no correlation between intelligence and amputees.
and i think that gods got a pretty screwed up prayer system.
its like going to a restaurant where they say "YOU CAN EAT WHATEVER YOU WANT" and you say "i'd like a hamburger" they say "sure!" and bring you a cheese sandwich
"i asked for a hamburger"
"yea but this is better"
"but i dont like sandwiches"
"dont look a gift horse in the mouth"
"im allergic to cheese. you said i could have whatever i want i asked for-"
"SINNER!" and gets out a hot poker
I wouldn't be going to that restaurant
And don't bother mentioning asking for evil things again, because its clearly the same in the case of asking for good things.
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This is just an example of why god never answers prayers, and is a damn good one because there is no ambiguity. There is no chance for coincidence, no opportunity to blame something that would have happened anyway on god.
He answers prayers, but not in the way you expect. If you ask for something directly God will give something that you don't expect, and will later realize.
I'm allergic to cheese though.
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Or if you ask for 'pitiful desires', you will get a more enligheted version of the world (I'm talking about dumb here), or if you truly want your desires, go ask from the Devil.
Pitiful desires?
Like the ability to live and have a chance to prove yourself and get into heaven?
Like the ability to be equal to others?
Why pick on some and not others? Why is god such a schoolyard bully?
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He ignores us in prayers.
Maybe ignores those who don't truly love Him. The problem is that He gives us signs, but we fail to acknowledge them.
He ignores everyone. It's a fact. Remember my experiment? He doesn't answer prayers.
There have even been scientific studies, proving that prayers do nothing.
In fact, a study shown on prayers by students before an exam showed that prayers actually made their scores go DOWN because they felt that they could rely on god to make them do well, rather than just study like everyone else.
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So you do not believe that god does not grant anything physical?
Sometimes He gives physical, but the reason He usually doesn't is because physical things are usually only a pitiful desire.
Tell a stillborn child of pitiful desire.
Tell a man with Down Syndrome of pitiful desire.
Tell an infertile woman that her desire is 'pitiful'.
Don't be so hearltless.
And you say 'usually' are pitiful. What about when it isn't pitiful?
What physical things has god given?
"oh I don't know but im sure he has!!!"
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Sure, but why did god take their limbs in the first place, though? He's taken them and refuses to give them back.
"God gave, God took. God's name be blessed."
God's name be ***hole, because if someone took my legs they'd get a punch in the face.
Why pick on those few people?
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there was a story with a faithful man, harassed by the Devil (in fact, the Devil said to God something along the lines of "I'll show you that this man will spit you, curse you, were it not for his treasury", treasury means his possessions, including money). The Devil actually started to take everything this man had, slowly, one after another... To show God that the man will spit Him when he'll be left with nothing.
The man's reply to this was like in the quote above with "God gave..."
and strangely, in the story, God didn't even take at all. That was perhaps true enlightenment.
LMAO
God told the devil to! It was a test of faith!
Why is god so cruel? Why do we just have to hack it? Why does this not sound absolutely stupid to you?
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I mean, you're calling me childish
nope
but your perspective, by taking things 100% literally and logically (either true or false), on religion is childish.
How else should we take the statement
"If you ask, it will be given to you" -Jesus
should we perhaps take it as
"If you ask, it might be given to you if I feel like it"
or
"If you ask, it won't be given to you"
or
"If you ask, I'll get the devil to kill your family and afflict you with boils for being so greedy!" -Jesus
That sounds more like it.
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Would you know your parents loved you if you never met them, never can meet them, never saw them or any hint that they ever existed except for the word of a strange man in the street?
But I can feel them. Scientists call this 'instict'
If you never knew your parents were alive, never had any connection to them, they never had any connection to you, and the only hint of their existence was the word of some carpenter working on a building site in the street (there are no records no way to ever find them), you wouldn't be able to feel it. Don't tell me that because this isn't a matter of faith, has nothing to do with believing or god. I could potentially be in the same situation as you, hypothetically.
So don't lie.
@Tenaka:
Thanks
____________
John says to live above hell.
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Stella
Adventuring Hero
Little girl with a BIG sword:)
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posted May 25, 2007 12:37 PM |
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Edited by Stella at 12:48, 25 May 2007.
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-- Tho I believed in God when I was younger but now I'm an
atheist.
-- I do have my own reasons for turning away from the christian religion but somehow I DON'T THINK EITHER SIDE should try to persuade the other with... hmm ...hmm "reasons?????" (funny thing to say "reason" when NEITHER SIDE CAN PROVE ANYTHING).... Why? Do you get free blessings from the cleric in the local church if you "recruit" 5 more believers? Or on the contrary: Do you feel better if you can "persuade" some other people NOT to believe in GOD?? This is so pointless IMO.
-- Everybody can decide it on their own how they feel about this religion thing. And it's a private matter what we believe in/or not. Being a believer or not has nothing to do with being a good person or not. Both can be idiots and both can be wonderful people - only depends on the individual...
____________
( )( ) __NEVER__
( ;.; ) / argue with a
( " " )/ Lady!
" " (OR mousie KILLS U!!)
DON'T underestimate MOUSIE!!
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 25, 2007 02:14 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 14:17, 25 May 2007.
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Ok, since I don't want to get into a hot discussion, then I'll only comment on the part with the "experiment with prayer".
This is to me, the most nonsense in religion ever. Prayers are not experiments.. God doesn't have a fixed system for which he bases His decisions on (like the Laws of phyisics).
Imagine a mother. There is absolutely no rule for her actions -- she just acts the way she does. Of course she loves her son. Love and feelings are not explained by a system or a law.. that is the point why you do not understand prayers.
Prayers are not experiments. You cannot "experiment" the love of a mother. You can't "experiment" feelings. Prayers don't work under a certain law. They work on feelings.
As long as you do not truly mean what you say in prayer (again, your thought matters when you pray to God), but only do it for an "experiment", then IMO that's the worst religious action I ever encountered.
If you love someone, you do it with your thoughts, not with your "physical actions" (like showing that you love that someone). If you do not love on the inside, then that's not love at all.
Imagine that the laws of physics are not "fixed", and they changed based on your thoughts. Let's suppose you go ahead with an experiment on "diffraction" of the light.. you go ahead and do it, but it doesn't work as someone else pointed out to you, it doesn't work at all? Why? Because, in this example, the laws of phyisics "changed" and didn't want to 'help' you because you, in your thoughts, only did this for your own experiments (and possibly money).
Of course the real life is different because 'light' has a fixed law and doesn't change depending on your feelings/thoughts. However, that is not the case with people/prayers.
If you only read through a prayer, and don't even use your thoughts to grasp it and truly mean it, then your reading of it makes absolutely no sense at all.. If you take a letter to your girlfriend and read it, without even caring for what it is contained within the letter, that's not love at all. If you truly love her in your mind/thoughts, then that should alone justify it as love.
Here's a BS and childish example (where the person doesn't even "mean" it, no love between him and God, just some stupid words):
"God, please I want a car".
after 2 minutes
"No car?? see, God doesn't exist and neither answers prayers... muahaha I've proven it!!!"
Do you think a prayer is defined by words? No, it's defined by thoughts. You can pray without your mouth
As for 'pitiful desires':
Let's suppose we are in a virtual world by Aliens. If you find this out, that you live in a virtual world, and possibly a lot of other things (let's suppose a cruel example, like when you die you fight in a war)...
The idea is, you'll then realize that all the pitiful desires, a car for example, is pitiful beside what awaits you..
And this doesn't always mean that it "awaits" you -- hence not necessarily to Heaven. Like in the Matrix example, you have 2 pills:
Depending on what pill you take, you either live in your "fantasy" world (in your bed, home, safe, your fake real world), or in the Matrix cruel world... but if you understand the Matrix, you realize that all the desires in the "fake" world (safe) are pitiful because what is beyond it (the matrix) is, well, beyond
If you, for example, know that we are all AIs of some aliens, then this world is completely pitiful as well, because we are just some AIs and of course all our desires are pitiful -- imagine ourselves creating a virtual world with AIs, and we'll say the same to them.
You only think that in this life you should seek fun, but fun is also a pitiful desire
Amputees seek limbs to find fun as well, but if they truly mean in their prayers, and never give away hope (like in the story with "God Gave. God took") then they are perhaps shown the way.
However if you give up after 5 minutes that God isn't at your service, then of course this is not faith anymore, nor love.. It's just a human rushed desire, pitiful if you allow me to write that word again.
Going back to the Aliens virtual simulation, if we all would seek only our 'pitiful desires' (like fun) without caring for wisdom at all, then imagine what the aliens would think of us?
" Yuck, the human AI we developed is no better than the animalic AI we developed... bleah, don't care about anything except their basic instincts (fun,food,sleep,etc)"
if we seeked enlightenment and wisdom (in this case 'knowing about the aliens would be a remarkable knowledge even if it doesn't affect our physical life'):
"Hey, perhaps these human AIs are not that dumb and blind, and seek information beyond their 'apparent' instincts, apart from those simple animals. They seek wisdom beyond their world and makes them interesting. And why? Because they want to be wise.. this is interesting. Maybe we should promote them to our other virtual system."
I dunno how good it sounds, I just made up that text But personally I'd like to be rated higher in the eyes of the Aliens than some basic-instinct animal. And of course in this case that doesn't mean God either, but not to limit yourself to your basic pleasures/instincts or pitiful desires.
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Stella
Adventuring Hero
Little girl with a BIG sword:)
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posted May 25, 2007 03:49 PM |
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Going back to the Aliens virtual simulation, if we all would seek only our 'pitiful desires' (like fun) without caring for wisdom at all, then imagine what the aliens would think of us?
" Yuck, the human AI we developed is no better than the animalic AI we developed... bleah, don't care about anything except their basic instincts (fun,food,sleep,etc)"
if we seeked enlightenment and wisdom (in this case 'knowing about the aliens would be a remarkable knowledge even if it doesn't affect our physical life'):
"Hey, perhaps these human AIs are not that dumb and blind, and seek information beyond their 'apparent' instincts, apart from those simple animals. They seek wisdom beyond their world and makes them interesting. And why? Because they want to be wise.. this is interesting. Maybe we should promote them to our other virtual system."
I dunno how good it sounds, I just made up that text But personally I'd like to be rated higher in the eyes of the Aliens than some basic-instinct animal. And of course in this case that doesn't mean God either, but not to limit yourself to your basic pleasures/instincts or pitiful desires.
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-- I love your "Aliens virtual simulation"...
-- At least this is one thing that even as an atheist I can still believe in... that Aliens DO EXIST but either they don't care about us yet or don't want to be found by us (or they are secretly inspecting us tho I doubt such "paranoid" theories... ).
-- And so on one day 2087 a Protoss Carrier starts floating above little John's house (the name is fictive - I'm a girl so it can't be me anyway... ).
The conversation:
"P: - Hello earthling named John."
"J: - Hi dudz."
"P: - We see you are a wise life form who uses his brain instead of relying only on instincts. Would you like to be the navigator on our Carrier? We've already recruited Chewbacca from Kashyyyk, Jango Fett (his clones are awesome... ) and Godzilla... "
____________
( )( ) __NEVER__
( ;.; ) / argue with a
( " " )/ Lady!
" " (OR mousie KILLS U!!)
DON'T underestimate MOUSIE!!
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted May 26, 2007 05:14 AM |
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@Baklava:
Thanks for the update big ben
But basically its heaven or hell; there's no grey areas. Unless dead babies go to purgatory
@Stella:
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.... Why? Do you get free blessings from the cleric in the local church if you "recruit" 5 more believers? Or on the contrary: Do you feel better if you can "persuade" some other people NOT to believe in GOD?? This is so pointless IMO.
If you sneak back after communion you can get double the blessing
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-- At least this is one thing that even as an atheist I can still believe in... that Aliens DO EXIST but either they don't care about us yet or don't want to be found by us (or they are secretly inspecting us tho I doubt such "paranoid" theories... ).
Actually if they do exist, which I think they do, they would be so incredibly far away that an entire race would die out before they could meet... 
@The Death:
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This is to me, the most nonsense in religion ever. Prayers are not experiments.. God doesn't have a fixed system for which he bases His decisions on (like the Laws of phyisics).
That's what you think.
That's not what the bible says, or what most believers think.
If you don't go by the bible then you aren't really an orthodox christian, you're more making up your own religion about god...
I guess it's easier to get into heaven that way
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Imagine a mother. There is absolutely no rule for her actions -- she just acts the way she does. Of course she loves her son. Love and feelings are not explained by a system or a law.. that is the point why you do not understand prayers.
God promised in the bible that he would answer prayers.. *sigh*
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Prayers are not experiments. You cannot "experiment" the love of a mother. You can't "experiment" feelings. Prayers don't work under a certain law. They work on feelings.
Says who?
Certainly not says Jesus or God, who's word are you following? Your own?
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As long as you do not truly mean what you say in prayer (again, your thought matters when you pray to God), but only do it for an "experiment", then IMO that's the worst religious action I ever encountered.
I thought we were passed this.
I said UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Stop bringing up the matter of faith and meaning and love and honesty and all that because it doesn't change the situation in the slightest. Youre taking it from the viewpoint of someone who doesn't believe, and that's why it doesn't work. But it's the same if the person does believe, is truthful, honest, loving, caring, and means what they say, legs wont grow back, the worlds cancer wont end.
Its like how you keep bringing up the excuse of evil, saying if we ask for evil, we shouldnt get it. But we wont get it if we ask for good either.
Just because it shouldnt work in one case, such as asking for evil or not believing in the cause doesn't excuse it not working in all other cases.
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If you love someone, you do it with your thoughts, not with your "physical actions" (like showing that you love that someone). If you do not love on the inside, then that's not love at all.
Imagine that the laws of physics are not "fixed", and they changed based on your thoughts. Let's suppose you go ahead with an experiment on "diffraction" of the light.. you go ahead and do it, but it doesn't work as someone else pointed out to you, it doesn't work at all? Why? Because, in this example, the laws of phyisics "changed" and didn't want to 'help' you because you, in your thoughts, only did this for your own experiments (and possibly money).
So god changes?
Why would an omnipotent and omniscient being change? That's insane
If he knew exactly what he was going to change into, why didn't he just change into it at the start? Someone who knows everything and can do everything doesn't change.
And that video of baklavas said that god exists outside of time and therefore can't change, and has always been creating the universe, even though the universe started at one fixed point in time.
I sent him a message and then he replied and that happened about 3 times before I pointed out exactly why he was wrong and then he stopped replying
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Of course the real life is different because 'light' has a fixed law and doesn't change depending on your feelings/thoughts. However, that is not the case with people/prayers.
If you only read through a prayer, and don't even use your thoughts to grasp it and truly mean it, then your reading of it makes absolutely no sense at all.. If you take a letter to your girlfriend and read it, without even caring for what it is contained within the letter, that's not love at all. If you truly love her in your mind/thoughts, then that should alone justify it as love.
Again, it wouldn't make a difference if you truly mean it.
If someone truly meant for an amputees leg to grow back, it still wouldn't.
I really can't see why you keep bringing that up.
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Here's a BS and childish example (where the person doesn't even "mean" it, no love between him and God, just some stupid words):
"God, please I want a car".
after 2 minutes
"No car?? see, God doesn't exist and neither answers prayers... muahaha I've proven it!!!"
Ok so it doesn't work in this case.
Again, as I have said, this doesn't excuse it never working, in any case.
Let's change the example a bit.
"God, please heal my husbands legs, I love him very much and you are a caring god" (and she means it)
after a lifetime,
"God has never answered any prayers where there is no ambiguity. God is imaginary."
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Do you think a prayer is defined by words? No, it's defined by thoughts. You can pray without your mouth
There we go again
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As for 'pitiful desires':
Let's suppose we are in a virtual world by Aliens. If you find this out, that you live in a virtual world, and possibly a lot of other things (let's suppose a cruel example, like when you die you fight in a war)...
The idea is, you'll then realize that all the pitiful desires, a car for example, is pitiful beside what awaits you..
As I said before, one case does not excuse all.
Tell a stillborn child of pitiful desire.
Tell a man with Down Syndrome of pitiful desire.
Tell an infertile woman that her desire is 'pitiful'.
Don't be so heartless.
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And this doesn't always mean that it "awaits" you -- hence not necessarily to Heaven. Like in the Matrix example, you have 2 pills:
Depending on what pill you take, you either live in your "fantasy" world (in your bed, home, safe, your fake real world), or in the Matrix cruel world... but if you understand the Matrix, you realize that all the desires in the "fake" world (safe) are pitiful because what is beyond it (the matrix) is, well, beyond
If you, for example, know that we are all AIs of some aliens, then this world is completely pitiful as well, because we are just some AIs and of course all our desires are pitiful -- imagine ourselves creating a virtual world with AIs, and we'll say the same to them.
Why does that make this world pitiful?
Regardless of whether or not its created by aliens this is still as real as it's ever going to get and we need to make the most of it.
Desire to live is not pitiful.
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You only think that in this life you should seek fun, but fun is also a pitiful desire
Alright.
You go never have fun then.
I actually said seek happiness but whatever.
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Amputees seek limbs to find fun as well, but if they truly mean in their prayers, and never give away hope (like in the story with "God Gave. God took") then they are perhaps shown the way.
You seem to forget that god decided to cripple these people in the first place.
Maybe if you had some terminal affliction you would understand.
Until then, don't call someone with legs pitiful, or someone blind, or a woman who wants to have a child.
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Going back to the Aliens virtual simulation, if we all would seek only our 'pitiful desires' (like fun) without caring for wisdom at all, then imagine what the aliens would think of us?
" Yuck, the human AI we developed is no better than the animalic AI we developed... bleah, don't care about anything except their basic instincts (fun,food,sleep,etc)"
Why do you care so much about what they think?
We're never going to meet them? Who gives a **** what they think?
If we were in an AI, then our life is completely pointless, and again, the ONLY thing we can do is to have fun. Otherwise you are just software
And you forget that it was the aliens who created us.
So we turned out exactly how they wanted. So they wouldn't be surprised. They would be happy that their AI turned out how they wanted (because they are all powerful)
They would be more like
"Ah, they are behaving exactly as we made them. What the **** else were we expecting. Since we already know everything there's not much point in watching. Let's go have fun and live our lives"
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if we seeked enlightenment and wisdom (in this case 'knowing about the aliens would be a remarkable knowledge even if it doesn't affect our physical life'):
No it wouldn't.
It wouldn't make the slightest difference to anything, except make you that little bit more smug
The aliens wouldn't care. They would have programmed you to do that anyway.
It wouldn't be remarkable at all. It would be a complete waste of the only time you have.
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"Hey, perhaps these human AIs are not that dumb and blind, and seek information beyond their 'apparent' instincts, apart from those simple animals. They seek wisdom beyond their world and makes them interesting. And why? Because they want to be wise.. this is interesting. Maybe we should promote them to our other virtual system."
You mistake entirely what god is.
Nothing surprises god.
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I dunno how good it sounds, I just made up that text But personally I'd like to be rated higher in the eyes of the Aliens than some basic-instinct animal. And of course in this case that doesn't mean God either, but not to limit yourself to your basic pleasures/instincts or pitiful desires.
Of course you care so much about what others think
And go to a hospital and tell all the people there that their desires just to be normal again are pitiful.
Go tell a child that his dying mother is pitiful.
Look him in the eye and tell him that he is pitiful.
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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Professional
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posted June 03, 2007 06:24 AM |
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enjoy
A Nation Down the Drain
"Harry Potter would have been put to death"
this is child abuse
Brainwashing
homeschooled kids..
"Global warming isn't real"
he says that jesus will save us soon so we should "rape the earth" and cut down trees
while i was on you tube theres another video i wont put it up though might get in trouble
but included:
"BEHEAD THOSE WHO SAY ISLAM IS VIOLENT" lol
and some priest who encourages people to murder abortion doctors
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John says to live above hell.
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Nidhgrin
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Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted June 11, 2007 09:39 PM |
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I don't know if this really belongs here, but two weeks ago I was at a festival in the Netherlands (Pinkpop), where I saw Within Temptation. It's a gothic band, but rather soft, and it brought back memories from years ago, when I was much more into this kind of music.
The texts of the songs touched me though, so I looked some of them up, and they have strong Wiccan (Pagan) influences. Surprisingly there seem to be quite some parallels between Paganism and Bhuddism (though on a superficial level).
Though I can't find myself in the domains where Wicca speaks about magic, this text (song text of 'Mother Earth') pretty much summarizes what I believe in. Who needs god if you believe in life?
Birds and butterflies
Rivers and mountains she creates
But you'll never know
The next move she'll make
You can try
But it is useless to ask why
Cannot control her
She goes her own way
She rules until the end of time
She gives and she takes
She rules until the end of time
She goes her way
With every breath
And all the choices that we make
We are only passing through on her way
I find my strength
Believing that their soul lives on
Until the end of time
I'll carry them with me
she rules until the end of time
she gives and she takes
she rules until the end of time
she goes her way
Once you will know my dear
You dont have to fear
A new beginning
Always starts at the end
Once you will know my dear
You dont have to fear ...
Until the end of time
Until the end of time
Until the end of time
She goes her way
she rules until the end of time
she gives and she takes
she rules until the end of time
until the end of time
until the end of time
she goes her way.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted June 14, 2007 01:02 PM |
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It's not enough to believe in life, Nid.
You have to hope for something more, and you have to be disappointed.
You go to sleep believing that tomorrow will come, but with one more day you will only be left wanting for another, and another. There has to be some sort of end, and no one wants it to be something so cold and unglamorous as death.
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I'm on TA's side about the Abrahamic god (sort of) though it kinda irritates me that he just can't seem to comprehend the possibility of existance of anything else...
It's not that I don't comprehend it, Baklava. It's that I don't see the point.
It's with that statement that the believer should be a little taken aback. Surely the point is obvious?
But God is an idea. As it's made it's way to this day it's turned into the one Abrahamic god (mostly), with stories of heaven and afterlife and love and hope, it's any wonder. What I'm saying is that you've taken this idea of a creator from this story, separated it, taken your pick. You've said "i like that but not that". How is that any different to inventing your own religion? What gives you any more credibility than a madman, or a child pretending to read a book?
You're going to take this the wrong way. I'm not saying that god is inseparable to Christianity. I'm saying that there is no reason to have taken this idea from it's original context.
What's the point of believing in god?
To get to heaven. Everyone wants to sit in the clouds, not in the soil. You can word it differently but it's true, call it what you like. Call it a 'higher purpose', maybe religion makes you feel better about yourself, like you're more important than everyone else.
But not if you've said, the rest is crap, but there's still a god! Do you see what I mean?
There's no reason to believe in it, other than 'I believe in it because it's real'. That's not enough, not even for Christians, they have the bible. They have SOMETHING, as ridiculous as it is. The only way that believing in a divine entity makes any sense is assuming that it DEFINITELY EXISTS, which is skipping the 'making sense' process altogether.
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John says to live above hell.
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