|
| Thread: Poll: Which town has the best design? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
posted December 15, 2006 06:32 PM |
|
|
From week 1 if possible.Both in multiplayer and heroic but it certainly helps in hard too.If you don't a hero with 3-5 lvls more than you will soon arrive and eliminate you or force you to 'turtle' in your town.And at any rate the faster you get the mines the easier to build your town.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted December 15, 2006 06:38 PM |
|
Edited by TheDeath at 18:39, 15 Dec 2006.
|
You sure got a point, but I was referring to treasures (which don't have a "daily" income) 
3-5 levels ain't that a big deal at the beginning (not very large armies), compared to the casualties you would have against some strong neutrals.
My strategy is to eliminate neutrals in mines like day 2 or something (depends on map starting buildings).. In general, it doesn't matter when I creep, it just matters that I don't have casualties along the way 
A good thing I see about "turtling" in your town is that, once the week is over, you get to buy all the next week creatures, and finish off the enemy if he lurks within your perimeter
I generally try to avoid creeping powerful neutrals that will provide only 1 level of experience and a lot of casualties
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted December 15, 2006 06:43 PM |
|
Edited by Elvin at 18:44, 15 Dec 2006.
|
Of course Depends on the situation really but that's how I generally think.The campaigns in H3 have made me a little agressive There are some combos that allow you to defeate high tiered creatures and I try to exploit them to the best of my ability.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted December 15, 2006 07:41 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Why is Sylvan "poorer" in creeping for those units mentioned (Mages, Druids, Succubus)..
Because heroes are unlikely to get warmachines, which are extremely important at creeping.
Quote:
what strategy you "really" employ with other towns to have no (or minimal) casualties (minimal in my taste means < 600 gold cost  )..
Minimal loses means 0 gold costs. And the strategy is: warmachines, tent, ballista and some kind of a shooter/mage shielded by three stacks of nuisance units.
Quote:
And believe, Sylvan is one of the most tough races at eliminating creeps without ANY casualties (this includes 1 Sprite), but it's more of a matter of luck (i.e if luck triggers or not)..
that's right, that's why I don't like this faction, since I enjoy powercreeping in earlygame very much.
Quote:
Unfortunately, Inferno is really poor against ranged neutrals, they will most like fire at least once --> casualties expected 
Plain wrong. I can take out 20 inquisitors with 30 demons at week two. Try to beat that with any other faction  Inferno is the best faction for creeping. Hunters? lol, I mop the floor with hunters..
Quote:
still, why are you "creeping" so early (week 2).. what will those treasures provide so much anyway
Yes, in case I am rushed extra gold, creatures and resources may result in not being wiped out of the map in week three.
Quote:
-- I believe they can wait a bit, seeing that they won't go anywhere by a week or two. (and believe that "preserving" your army is a well-worth advantage)
Sure, have fun waiting in week two while I have already flagged important mines and my hero has a huge level advantage. Wait a bit more for me to return to my town, get the spells and go after you while you are still "waiting a bit". Or you can leave the game as it starts, the result will be the same
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted December 15, 2006 09:44 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Because heroes are unlikely to get warmachines, which are extremely important at creeping.
I think you kinda overestimate warmachines here. The damage isn't that great because the initiative is 10. Have you ever fought 40 Archliches? Well in that case you need a quick and dirty shot, which isn't ballista's strength -- i'd go with Battle Frenzy and Archery instead. I'm one of those "few" guys that don't find Deleb or Vittorio "quite" overpowered (since she was nerfed by some x.xx patch, can't remember).
Quote:
Minimal loses means 0 gold costs. And the strategy is: warmachines, tent, ballista and some kind of a shooter/mage shielded by three stacks of nuisance units.
Ok, what if the neutrals attack before your overpowered ballista?
Quote:
that's right, that's why I don't like this faction, since I enjoy powercreeping in earlygame very much.
Remember that while you are off capturing mines, never getting home for fresh reinforcements, some hero can wipe your town. And I doubt 3000 pieces of gold from treasures will solve that.
You capture the mine and some enemy hero comes with 1 familiar, level 1, can captures it himself saying: "thanks for clearing the way, man"
I can understand that some creeps have to be eliminated, just not those powerful as those guarding the mines -- especially not at week 2 when your army is still low.
Quote:
Plain wrong. I can take out 20 inquisitors with 30 demons at week two. Try to beat that with any other faction Inferno is the best faction for creeping. Hunters? lol, I mop the floor with hunters..
Do you mean "horned demons", as that's what the name "demon" means to me (sorry if I didn't understand). I can't really imagine how that would happen, especially if they start with a higher Initiative (ATB) than your "ballista". At least some of them will die -> casualties like I said. Remember that by using the War machines skills & perks, you don't use other abilities at the same level, like Battle Frenzy or some spell mastery.
Anyway, by week 2 you have (assuming castle is built by week 1, so...): 64 familiar + hero generated army (around 10), 64 horned demon + hero blablabla, 36 cerberus, 20 Succubus Mistress, etc. I doubt this army can beat 30 Inquisitors without any casualties (oops, I forgot the overpowered warmachines, which even though they require skills to be powerful, are good even without skills & perks, 10 hit points by First Aid tent is a casualty-avoider).
And remember you don't even have Capitol, so the gold will be very low, especially if you start with 20000 gold, by week 2 you will only have 30000 gold (without any costs, I just counted the income if you build the City hall as fast as possible).
Quote:
Yes, in case I am rushed extra gold, creatures and resources may result in not being wiped out of the map in week three.
No, but your army gets wiped out in that particular week. Because of this, creatures won't join you anymore, which is a big minus.
Quote:
Sure, have fun waiting in week two while I have already flagged important mines and my hero has a huge level advantage. Wait a bit more for me to return to my town, get the spells and go after you while you are still "waiting a bit". Or you can leave the game as it starts, the result will be the same
Yeah, but I doubt a level 40 hero with 1 familiar defeats a level 1 hero with 300 familiars... (just joking here, no offense )
ok, you prefer offense, I prefer defense. Sometimes I have played with the AI (2.0 base growth, damn cheater ), and when I was walking to the mines creeping stuff, he attack and stole my town. It just occured to me many times -- I know it was not a good move for him, but it did indeed make me return to my base since he had a much more "leveled" hero than I did in my town (army in the base, which isn't important, was also outnumbered, but that wasn't the main factor, was it?)..
I know creeping early provides an advantage, but that doesn't make it the only way -- try to view from other perspectives (like army preserving instead of levelling experience), and see the benefits of other factions. Not all of them were designed for creeping early (though myself I do not creep early even with Inferno), and other strategies may apply.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted December 15, 2006 10:09 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I think you kinda overestimate warmachines here. The damage isn't that great because the initiative is 10. Have you ever fought 40 Archliches? Well in that case you need a quick and dirty shot, which isn't ballista's strength -- i'd go with Battle Frenzy and Archery instead. I'm one of those "few" guys that don't find Deleb or Vittorio "quite" overpowered (since she was nerfed by some x.xx patch, can't remember).
And so? Deleb still clears the map without units.
Quote:
Ok, what if the neutrals attack before your overpowered ballista?
Ever heard of a tent ? Ever heard the tent ressurects the fallen units? shooters almost always act before my ballista and so what?
Quote:
Remember that while you are off capturing mines, never getting home for fresh reinforcements, some hero can wipe your town. And I doubt 3000 pieces of gold from treasures will solve that.
I see that you're quite inexperianced at MP. You wouldn't write such nonsense otherwise. If I see a hero coming after my town, I attack creeps, run, re-hire the hero at tawern and re-buy the ballista. The cost of this operation is 4000 and some demons I have been carrying with me (demons useless piece of junk anyway), but no way you can get my town. The recruits are waiting for me in the dwellings and I have the cash to buy them.
Quote:
You capture the mine and some enemy hero comes with 1 familiar, level 1, can captures it himself saying: "thanks for clearing the way, man"
So you think it's best not to get any mines because enemy may actually steal them from you? nice thinking.
Quote:
I can understand that some creeps have to be eliminated, just not those powerful as those guarding the mines -- especially not at week 2 when your army is still low.
Just because you can't eliminate them in week two doesn't mean it's not possible cause it is. With little effort, in fact.
Quote:
Do you mean "horned demons", as that's what the name "demon" means to me (sorry if I didn't understand).
yes
Quote:
I can't really imagine how that would happen, especially if they start with a higher Initiative (ATB) than your "ballista". At least some of them will die -> casualties like I said.
So tent will ressurect most and even if I lose 15-20 horned demons, I don't care, they are rubbish anyway.
Quote:
Remember that by using the War machines skills & perks, you don't use other abilities at the same level, like Battle Frenzy or some spell mastery.
I start with adv.warmachines with deleb. All I need is tent skill, ballista skill and exp.warmachines, just three levels. And since I creep so fast, I will have 3-4 levels more than your hero in the battle anyway - and extra artifacts, resources etc.
Quote:
Anyway, by week 2 you have (assuming castle is built by week 1, so...): 64 familiar + hero generated army (around 10), 64 horned demon + hero blablabla, 36 cerberus, 20 Succubus Mistress, etc.
No, I will have 25-30 horned demons and nothing more, if you do not wish to count ballista and tent.
Quote:
I doubt this army can beat 30 Inquisitors without any casualties
Man, get some gaming experience.. then we can talk. No offence. I can beat 25 hellchargers with 30 demons aswell. In case you don't believe, I can post some screenshots. No problem.
Quote:
(oops, I forgot the overpowered warmachines, which even though they require skills to be powerful, are good even without skills & perks, 10 hit points by First Aid tent is a casualty-avoider).
I don't get why do you try to be sarcastic when you know so little about the earlygame 
Quote:
And remember you don't even have Capitol, so the gold will be very low, especially if you start with 20000 gold, by week 2 you will only have 30000 gold (without any costs, I just counted the income if you build the City hall as fast as possible).
And you, with your "waiting a bit more" strategy, will just swim in gold and resources. Ya. Ofc. ^_^
Quote:
No, but your army gets wiped out in that particular week.
by whom? Neutrals? forget it.
Quote:
ok, you prefer offense, I prefer defense. Sometimes I have played with the AI (2.0 base growth, damn cheater ), and when I was walking to the mines creeping stuff, he attack and stole my town. It just occured to me many times -- I know it was not a good move for him, but it did indeed make me return to my base since he had a much more "leveled" hero than I did in my town (army in the base, which isn't important, was also outnumbered, but that wasn't the main factor, was it?)..
Do not compare AI to a human opponent. AI has gold advantage, but is very stupid. I have no problems with beating AI on any difficulty. Say, I take some devils and nightmares, and creep the map, while my secondary hero stays at home with the rest of the army to protect the castle. The enemy fails, while deleb gets deeper and deeper in his territory, just to get his castle while he's defenseless. Pathetically easy.
Quote:
I know creeping early provides an advantage, but that doesn't make it the only way -- try to view from other perspectives (like army preserving instead of levelling experience)
Man heroes 5 is a costly game. You don't creep - you have no resources and gold, therafore no army, so you cannot preserve anything except some levels 1-5 creatures, which I will mop the floor with.
Quote:
and see the benefits of other factions. Not all of them were designed for creeping early (though myself I do not creep early even with Inferno), and other strategies may apply.
Ohh, I see their benefits: Haven is overpowered, dungeon is very strong etc. So what? I love this particular faction and aggresive style of playing.
Regards, and don't forget to get some experience dude
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted December 15, 2006 10:37 PM |
|
|
Hey man, I know about the surrender stuff, but don't you think that:
- Losing 4000 gold is equivalent to a whole bunch of treasures
- It's exactly what the other hero wanted to accomplish, stopping you from creeping and returning home (and no I have never played such dirty tactics since I didn't need to, but maybe I'm not used as to how you guys play since I have only LAN right now (the connection is poor and internet doesn't work dunno why), so i only played with my friends -- we also like to play allied sometimes against cheating AIs with more growth, sometimes we exaggerated a bit making them a 3.0 growth bonus, believe it's doom)
About the war machines:
- Tent ressurects stuff, around 100 hit points (300 total, 3 shots). A throng of marksmen will deal more damage (neutrals), at least I think.
- Angel's ressurection is equivalent to a tent, so why you say it's for n00bs?
About the mines:
No, it does not mean that you shouldn't capture mines, just don't be so sure of yourself that once you capture it, it will be clearly 100% in your advantage forever. You'll have to pass there from time to time, defend it or otherwise recapture it, etc..
I didn't compare the AI with yourself or anyone else: I know he's stupid, I just said that he attacked my base many times while I was creeping (obviously you won't do that so early -- you'll be creeping). I just remarked that sometimes "creeping" is costly in terms of gold (i.e surrendering, etc), and it also is costly in terms of "hero" movement points (i.e returning home), which without you won't be able to creep...
I know AI is stupid, but when Quick combat shows "You have won" it kinda makes your "army" and hero superior to the AI's one somewhat, and in Quick Combat you are stupid too (I mean no manual control). Idea is that how can the AI vs AI (quick combat) be in favor of someone when the other one has plenty resources.. that's because the 'growth' is the prob. that stops him, not the resources (i know this wasn't related to what we talked about)
sorry about the rant
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 12:38 AM |
|
|
Oww we are doing such an offtopic here.. :|
Well, in case you didn't believe me..
As you can see on the ATB bar I have only horned demons, ballista and tent, yet it's enough to wipe out 15 hydras with no loses. Week 2.
Oh, I actually lost 3 demons here, but unicorns are supposed to be tougher than hydras. Still - extremely easy fight. Week 2.
I don't have any image showing how I can easily own inquisitors or nightmares, but I'll post them if I get some.
Anyways if you feel that warmachines suck, feel free to kill those 15 unicorns in week 2 without them. And have fun
|
|
Cookie
Adventuring Hero
*cookie magic*
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 01:23 AM |
|
|
we're still talking about town design right?????
Anyway, how can the wizards get to their city???? 
|
|
GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 01:26 AM |
|
|
Quote:
we're still talking about town design right?????
Anyway, how can the wizards get to their city????
There are stairs in the adventure map, that we can't see inside the town.
But I thought about teleporting...
|
|
Cookie
Adventuring Hero
*cookie magic*
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 01:33 AM |
|
|
that is odd. I thought the Dungeon people could take elevators by the purple lights beam them up, but Academy is weird. I think they either break their legs walking up the stairs or taking skyships. 
|
|
Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 01:35 AM |
|
|
Funny that Wizards inhabit the clouds and what do they choose as a mount....an ELEPHANT
Well if they are anything like the wizards from Terry Pratchet then it's no surprise
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 02:06 PM |
|
|
There are stairs from the tavern, I think.
[last off-topic, please do not bash].
Doomforge: Yes, I completely see your point. I have never said you were wrong, or "weak" -- you are perfectly right. However this does not mean it's the only strategy. And I did not say War machines suck, but I do not see them more "useful" than other skills, so I do not think they are overpowered. I also like Inferno, but I also try to protect my Horned demons (Gating works well for no casualties). What I do not understand is why you say Sylvan sucks -- a Sprie, only one, can beat those Hydras for their small initiative, with Unicorns it may be another story (I actually never met Unicorns as neutrals except once, when they joined me).
The first aid tent heals 100 hit points, right? Then 40 Archliches, which deal approximately 400 maximum damage with only 1 shot (I also counted as "far away", so damage is halved, it would've been 800). I didn't include attack and defense in the calculations 'cause it can vary. For example, I once wanted to get an artifact from some Lots archliches (40), and it killed a lot of War dancers (around 40, can't remember exactly).. problem is that the first aid tent ressurects only 8 War dancers, so I really can't see how that avoids casualties..
Also, keep in mind that at usual maps, you'll find tier 4 creatures guarding the mines (i mean for rare resources, not wood and ore). Once I found around 42 Archmages -- splitted into 3 stacks: 14, 14, 14. Each dealed around 128 damage with their Fist of Wrath, so I suppose the First Aid tent didn't help much (two shots heal exactly one Devil, so it isn't kinda super-overpowered as you might think). You don't know how good your "hunters" can be if you have around 5 luck (provided it triggers, of course, but this game is also one of luck -- depends what kind of neutrals there are, etc). By "good" I mean kill anything before it shoots or attacks. And having a huge army with you is also worthile for neutrals that wish to join you, especially if you have Diplomacy skill.
Ah, yes and those Grim Riders can be a pain -- especially versus Devils, I lost once 4 against Dungeon hero with only 20 Grim Riders. Probably you also go to the Dragon Utopia with 30 demons. I mean just try to view this from different angles, not just Deleb. It wasn't necessary for the screenshots -- I know ressurection is good especially against lower tier neutrals, but I just don't find an edge to it (and only to it).
Go ahead and call me a noob if you want, because I do not want to "exploit" every game "flaw" (like saying "hey, it's UNFAIR that neutrals near my town are Unicorns instead of Hydras!!!), even though I do not find warmachines THAT useful as you say, however can be good for the low tier neutrals, I agree. No, like any good strategist, I try to know how to adapt my plans and strategies for the game in question, whether I were just lucky and 40 crystal was near my base, or unlucky with mercury (I'm talking about Sylvan), and not exploit flaws like "camping" as is usually done in RPGs, etc.. maybe I'm a noob for you guys because I think like that, however I do not see how THAT powerful the warmachines or your trick with Deleb works -- and this doesn't mean I find Deleb "underpowered", no it simply says I find her "balanced".
Again I apologize for this last off-topic, and for the rant. I didn't offense anyone, and I apologize if that's what is understandable from my english, which is not my native language. I see everyone's point about their strategies, but I always try to delve and take useful advice from anyone, not just those that think Deleb is the only useful Inferno hero.
Have a nice day
|
|
Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 04:07 PM |
|
|
|
Although I always have fancied the Warlocks, I voted for Haven this time - not because it is so nice, but rather because I find the others not so intuitive to navigate around.
|
|
GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 07:02 PM |
|
|
What you mean the Haven is the only town that fits to any terrain?
I guess you probebly right.
It's so strange to see:
Dungeon which is not underground
Inferno which is not in the lava terrain
Necropolis in the grassy terrain
Sylvan in the lava terrain
Academy in the underground
Haven and Fortress are the only town, I guess, that flexible to any terrain.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 07:23 PM |
|
|
|
Academy looks ridiculous underground.
|
|
GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 10:40 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Academy looks ridiculous underground.
You are right! I didn't thought about it.
I'll edit the post...
|
|
GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 10:43 PM |
|
|
But would you prefer it how it was in H2?
There, every town is on a little hill, that changes according to the terrain.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 10:48 PM |
|
|
|
yeah that was dumb, but the towns looked awesome for me (well, not all... wizard town sucked, but necro town.. or knight town.. yum). Better than in h3 imo.
|
|
GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2006 10:57 PM |
|
|
In my opinion, from the inside, all the town looked AMAZING.
And with poor graphic of these times, it's good achievement!
And the Necropolis's effects were awsome!
And also, I like the idea that from the outside you see not just the town hall and the fort, you see randomal buildings from the inside of the town. I think it's really a great idea of H2 designers. I wonder why they changed it in H3.
What do you think, Doomforge?
|
| |
|
|
