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| Thread: Is there good and evil in Heroes 5? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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guarder
Supreme Hero
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posted December 10, 2007 03:25 PM |
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Thanks, remember to put spoiler next time i don't have TotE yet
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Lord_Evil
Famous Hero
Evil lolcat
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posted December 10, 2007 06:18 PM |
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Actually i meant to ask why is he evil in HoF.
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted December 10, 2007 11:41 PM |
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Quote:
Easy way to solve this: Men are Evil.
There.
Problem solved.
And women are good and benevolent?
Ah i wish eveything in life was that simple!
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 11, 2007 07:10 AM |
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I am not going to argue this point. It would be useless, and just cause an arguement. We make excuses for things we do. That doesn't make it right, or better. For those who doubt true evil or good exsist, I want to ask you to do something.
Find somebody around you that has been raped, or had one of their loved ones killed in cold blood. Spend some time with them. Maybe, just maybe you will understand.
For instance rape. The effects of a rape does not end when the forced sex ends. Trust me on this. When, and if you have experienced the nightmares, horror, and absolute terror..come talk to me then. Tell me it is anything but pure evil then. That is the last I have to say on the subject.
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Message received.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted December 11, 2007 12:13 PM |
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Quote:
I am not going to argue this point. It would be useless, and just cause an arguement. We make excuses for things we do. That doesn't make it right, or better. For those who doubt true evil or good exsist, I want to ask you to do something.
Find somebody around you that has been raped, or had one of their loved ones killed in cold blood. Spend some time with them. Maybe, just maybe you will understand.
For instance rape. The effects of a rape does not end when the forced sex ends. Trust me on this. When, and if you have experienced the nightmares, horror, and absolute terror..come talk to me then. Tell me it is anything but pure evil then. That is the last I have to say on the subject.
Just because it is bad and damaging doesn't make it "evil".
As pointed out before, those who are evil consider themselves to be good, and they consider those who are good to be evil, because they are their enemy. It remains subjective, and not a universal identification of anything.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2007 12:37 PM |
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Have you been raped, Mytical?
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Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
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posted December 11, 2007 12:38 PM |
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Edited by Duncan at 12:47, 11 Dec 2007.
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Quote:
Just because it is bad and damaging doesn't make it "evil".
Urgh... even if it's done with the sole purpose of self satisfaction?
Quote:
As pointed out before, those who are evil consider themselves to be good, and they consider those who are good to be evil, because they are their enemy. It remains subjective, and not a universal identification of anything.
There are many things in grey that can fall to this argument, but not all. I believe there is a universal good and evil. I think we mix up our discussion between good and evil in Heroes and in real life. In Heroes, or in a case where one fights another, I will not argue with the above argument (I just watched "The Kingdom" last night and the last words are the most important message of all). In real life, seriously, how can we justify a rape??
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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 11, 2007 12:41 PM |
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Yeah. Not exactly something I discuss to strangers though. Would have been a second time, but my brother interviened. Sorry, but the people who have never been a victim of something so evil just don't seem to understand.
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Message received.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2007 01:04 PM |
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Can you give us more details?
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mlai
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 11, 2007 01:19 PM |
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WTF is wrong with you Samiekl?
Anyways, what that poster was saying was simply that good and evil are arbitrary human concepts, which they are. When a lion kills the cubs of a lioness that it's got the hots for, it doesn't think about how evil it is.
But they are concepts that fully apply to us, because we are humans.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2007 01:24 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 13:25, 11 Dec 2007.
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i'm possessed by the supreme evil force. Sorry, i didnt have a choice. It wasnt me speaking, it was the evil force.
SAVE MEEEEEEEEE!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 11, 2007 01:26 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 13:27, 11 Dec 2007.
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I think you should just let her be..
As for the concept of good and evil things are not exactly the same for us. Normally killing is wrong but when it's about survival or self-defense things are totally different. Can you really consider rape or mental torment neutral? No, it causes pain and has selfish motives andt the one who does it knows it full well.
Edit: OMG call an exorcist!! 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2007 01:29 PM |
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It's so dark and cold here... please... do something... im dying... please...
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2007 01:59 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 14:00, 11 Dec 2007.
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If she chooses to speak freely about being raped in a public forum, i think i have the right to be interested in that, even in a more sick way.
Lets not forget... this is a game forum.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2007 02:02 PM |
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Quote:
If she chooses to speak freely about being raped in a public forum, i think i have the right to be interested in that, even in a more sick way.
Lets not forget... this is a game forum.
Fun with misplaced modifiers!  No disrespect to Mytical intended.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 11, 2007 02:09 PM |
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She did mention that this is not something she discusses with strangers don't you think you should respect her privacy just out of courtesy? I doubt she'd be insulted or something but still.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2007 02:17 PM |
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Now im a little confused. Lets say Elvin was raped and he didnt want to talk about it. Would he say that in a forum (a game forum)? Pls enlighten me. I was in the dark realm for too long.
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Hotarubi
Known Hero
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posted December 11, 2007 03:02 PM |
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I'll agree once again with Monolith.
The following may be controversial and may be offensive. I try to be as accommodating and non-offensive with my terms as much as possible, but I realize that no matter how hard I try, there is a chance that someone may get offended. So please, read at your own discretion.
Okay, I don't mean to take anything from rape victims, let me just make that clear. I volunteered at a Sex-Ed Counselling Centre for 2 years, and some of the things I've heard from call-ins and drop-ins have been pretty painful and damaging just to hear about them... but here's my point:
I think what Geny and Monlith have been trying to mention all along (I don't mean to speak for either for you. Just using you as examples and as references... please feel free to correct me if I speak out of line) is that concepts of "pain" and "suffering" and "horrific experiences" do not necessarily coincide with what can be termed as "evil." To feel "pain, suffering, horror"- these things are byproducts of constant socialization that commenced upon childhood and developed onto adulthood . They are things that resulted from various social factors (hence the term socialization) that influenced you into the person that you are now and the ideas that you believe in. People (at least in the Western context) are taught to not kill, not to disobey parents, not to steal, not to covet, not to be manipulative, not to approach things from a self-gaining standpoint, etc. And these "teachings" can come from a variety of sources- religion, developing lifelong beliefs, politics, ideologies, identities, familial tradition, cultural tradition, and so on.
But this does not mean that "evil" (or good) exists. Good and evil are words used to MASK larger meanings and larger social forces at work, in the form of rules, conduct, and regulations, to create a fluid, working society.
Let me see if I can display an example rooted in capitalist economics. People are conditioned not to kill, so that there will be people available to serve a country as potentially working members of society. If people were conditioned to kill, or if rules surrounding murder were light and rarely enforced, what is left is a society that is unable to function due to the lack of manpower and working members that are ESSENTIALLY necessary to create a fluorishing economy.
Likewise, if people were conditioned to steal, or if the rules surrounding theft were light or rarely enforced, the society will likely burn under chaos because 1) people do not have property that they can call their own if things continuously get stolen 2) people cannot use their property as symbols of power to affirm their identities 3) people cannot use property as modes of trade and economic transactions... thus creating a failed society.
Now, I think people here are adamant in associating evil with a few exceptions such as rape.
Again, not to take away from the horror or suffering associated with rape... because, although I have never been raped (which itself is a broad term) before, I have been sexually molested (sorry, I can speak of this candidly because it's a part of my life that I have acknowledged and with which I have found internal peace)... and like I said, having worked as a Sex-Ed Counsellor, I am aware of rape's horrors.
BUT... Rape is only "evil" insofar as we give it space to be defined as evil. That means, it is only evil in the way that we perceive it based on our own prejudice and biases and understanding of how things (supposedly) work. Let's try to break it down in terms of how I define rape (and hopefully, how you define it as well).
Rape... according to dictionary.com, it is defined as "any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person." From this statement, we can derive that rape is 1) a violation of autonomy 2) a violation of sexual freedom 3) a violation of one's own will. Now, I implore the reader to please think hard about the following. What if you were not taught to be an autonomous person? What if you were conditioned to repress your sexuality? What if you were told from the moment you were born, that YOU HAVE NO WILL? Imagine this experience that you yourself live in, one that is devoid of autonomy, will, and sexual expression.
Now, still imagining yourself within this imaginary world, if someone came up to you, grabbed you, and performed a sexual act on you in the middle of the street... can you still consider that rape without any prior understanding of what it means to be autonomous? Without an understanding of free will and consent? Without an understanding of sexual expression? The way I see it, probably not. "Rape" is a word used to define a specific action, as well as create connotations, BASED ON cultural values, moral values, and the fluidity of society. After all, if there were no regulations against rape,whether in the form of laws or religious doctrine, everyone would (hypothetically) indulge and rape the person next to them. And would this type of "raping society" be a functioning society? It functions in the sense that it satisfies the sexual libidinal desires of humans... but other than that, hypothetically, it does not allow room for communal flourishment.
So you can argue, "but we do not live in that imaginary world without autonomy, without will, without sexual expression"... Yes that is true, but it is only half-true... I certainly consider myself having lived through these regulations (i.e. that rape is bad, killing is bad), having spent most of my life in Canada. But if you read a bit on other cultures, especially cultures that are very small in number and minimally influenced by the capitalist world, you will find that concepts of good and evil are VERY different from the concepts in the Western context. Cultures have their own ideas concerning rape, homosexuality, procreation, the origin of creation, good and evil, etc.
One more thing before I shut up. An example that I've read is the Gebusi tribe from Papua New Guinea, as shown in the research by Knauft.
Before Christian missionaries arrived in the Gebusi region, the males had a "bachelor-party" type of ritual... basically a ritual that initiates a boy into becoming a man. My memory's a little hazy, but I believe boys that turned 12 were taken into huts with older men in their late twenties or within their thirties. The boys HAVE TO perform fellatio on the older men and consume their semen. Note that the boys have no prior knowledge of this ritual as it is a very SECRETIVE ritual that MUST NOT be revealed outside the realm of men. The means, the ritual must not be revealed to boys (because they are not men) and women. A boy will only become a man, and thus will only be aware of the ritual after swallowing the semen of the older man. This is because the semen REPRESENTS a "communal semen", which is a pool of semen that the Gebusi men believed to be only within the possession of men. So if a boy swallows that semen, the semen inside him is thought to be the factor that would make him a man.
Yes I'm sorry, it's a little graphic, but I've read more provocative things in my field of study (Socio-Cultural Anthropology)... I used this example because it is somewhat relevant to our understanding of rape.
So what does this example tell us? Well, for one thing, this ritual is considered as a joyous ritual, because it is the rite of passage that DEFINES someone to be a man. There is nothing there about rape. Nothing there about will. Nothing there about sexual expression/consent. Nothing there about autonomy. The ritual is a culturally defined concept that may be understood as rape in Western terms, but not in their terms. Thus this supports Monolith's assertion on moral relativism... because aspects of culture- rituals, actions, rules, regulations, morality- these are all subjectively defined within the culture in which they are embedded.
Whew... I apologize for the lengthy reply and the content of my reply... but I felt they were necessary in illustrating a point.
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Kalai
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 11, 2007 04:10 PM |
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OK, first off: Hi all, I just registered after a long time of lurking.
@Hotarubi: Don't apologize for your much needed post. I am so glad someone finally gave this topic some proper input. But there is one thing in it that bugs me. You start out by defining rape. Then you create a vision of a world where someone without any type of will is performed a sexual act upon. That is by the prior definition not rape. Since unconcentual means there actually was a choice to begin with. But this person can not have either concentual sex or unconcentual sex which pretty much makes the whole example quite useless. I guess this example was constructed with your intent of being as inoffensive as possibible. But the very sound general intent of your post remains and is by far the freshest breeze in this debate.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2007 04:22 PM |
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Oh my god... the dark entity tries to control me again.
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