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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: In-depth Acadmy review
Thread: In-depth Acadmy review This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 06, 2007 03:35 PM

If the map is rich, it doesn't exactly mean light/dark will beat you to death.

If the map is rich, a warlock's SP can go through the roof, and he will most likely kill 2-3 times more than his whole army ^^

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted March 06, 2007 03:37 PM

Quote:
If the map is rich, it doesn't exactly mean light/dark will beat you to death.

No, but if a map has two towns, then you'll have bigger armies and Attack and Defense will be better than Spell Power.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted March 06, 2007 04:06 PM

Maps with more towns, are sometimes rich, sometimes poor... I don't think one has anything to do with the other. 20 knowledge on week 4 is easy to get, on any map for wizard. of course , the map must have some monsters on it so you can actually get experience !

A wizard starts with 3 knowledge, so you need to get another 17.
One artifact of knowledge makes that 15 or 14 needed only ... the rest you get from levels and some knowledge stat boosters, almost all the maps have them. you must get ~lvl 18 , and you'll almost sure have the needed knowledge, and that is not very hard. you might get even 25+ knowledge on week 4 due to the enlightment if you get lucky.

I prefer maps with 2 or more towns because they are better, richer in possible strategies etc. and of course faster ... Why wait 10 weeks to get 20 dragons , when you can have them in 5 ? One town maps are very limited ... fully build one town, upgrade it and that's it. I don't see what's so cool about that ... Is this Heroes of Town vs. Town ? Or do you want to be able to see more strategies, more combinations etc.
If you are playing one town maps, its like you are playing the same thing over and over again... Fully build town, mage guild , dwellings and money and then there's nothing left to do , so you go charge your enemy. What more can you do ? If there are more towns you can do more things....

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted March 06, 2007 04:14 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 16:16, 06 Mar 2007.

TowerLord: I can't say I disagree with you. This game is boring because you can't build multiple dwellings in the town, and that's why multiple towns are needed (otherwise, you would need only a few Gold Mines as a replacement of the second town).

I don't like two towns very much (the idea, I mean), but multiple-dwellings would be great. (I mean, building in the same town more of the same type of dwelling).

EDIT: about the faster thing... well, I don't get it why you need to fight with 20 Dragons. If there's one town, you'll fight with 10, what's wrong about that? I mean, epic battles are just with more troops, not longer, the only difference is that you see more units dying in one hit.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted March 06, 2007 04:20 PM

Actually you have strong points TowerLord, and I agree completely! That way you'll surely have strategies to consider

There's a thread on ubi.com about this stuff, it's pretty long (only 3 pages but long posts), and covers other things as well (such as abuses) but you can skip that part. It'd be nice if you read the whole thread as it's filled with interesting stuff.

Of course 'casual' heroes players don't agree with that (especially JJ), if you feel some ideas are good and even come up with better ones, just post there. It's for strategy and eliminating abuses.

Here

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted March 06, 2007 04:48 PM

Call me crazy, but I think the game is very well balanced right now... and also there are many fine strategies!
I don't know about necro though, which seems to be very stupid nowadays ... and I don't understand what does the ability skeletron archers do now ... It used to be such an important ability... now what does it do ?
The Multiple buildings for each lvl would mean no more training... almost useless necromancy ,and so on ...  A total remaking of the game, and I don't know if everyone would like it very much ! Heroes 4 had some crazy new ideas , like creatures walking alone on the ground , and heroes fighting along with troops , and we all know what a fiasco it was. This multiple building system seems to be in some way similar to that, and i don't know if I want it .

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TheDeath
TheDeath


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with serious business
posted March 06, 2007 04:55 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 16:57, 06 Mar 2007.

Quote:
Call me crazy, but I think the game is very well balanced right now... and also there are many fine strategies!
I was talking for maps with only 1 town...

Quote:
I don't know about necro though, which seems to be very stupid nowadays ... and I don't understand what does the ability skeletron archers do now ... It used to be such an important ability... now what does it do ?
It doesn't even exist

Quote:
The Multiple buildings for each lvl would mean no more training...
If you care to build the Paladin dwelling (15 crystal) a lot of times, then of course training would be useless.. but it's the same as if building it in another town, really.

Quote:
almost useless necromancy ,and so on ...
Why? Do you right now have so much money that you recruit everything in existence? No, and even with the dwellings you won't have money, so necromancy comes with free creatures.

Quote:
Heroes 4 had some crazy new ideas , like creatures walking alone on the ground , and heroes fighting along with troops , and we all know what a fiasco it was.
H4 was great, not because of the "fiasco" but because it was different. It took a different approach to the strategies, of course it was bashed and attacked from the fans far too early, so they didn't continue it. I say, if the fans would grow up and learn how to add proper ideas and strategies into the game (instead of being at the same old classic) then H4 would have reached maturity. Btw the ideas weren't crazy, they were "new" ideas but the Heroes fans did not and do not want to open their eyes to real strategies

I praise H4 because it was different, because it was a bold thing from 3DO to make it different.. the fans well are just too conservatism.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted March 06, 2007 05:51 PM

well . I think this game doesn't need another revolution . Just minor adjustments here and there ... But you could start thinking about one for HMM 6
For me things like Simultan Turns and Quick Combat are the greatest addons one could get for heroes and Ubi made them possible!

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted March 06, 2007 05:53 PM

Of course I wasn't expecting to see them in the next patch, but perhaps in the next expansion? pretty please nival (at least consider those ideas)

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted March 06, 2007 06:20 PM

I am sorry it took me so long to reply but I had some real life obligations and only just returned home.

@Doomforge
You are right about Nur but it's all about preference, not the best (MMR)hero. After all in 1.0 I never played Klaus, Dougal and Vladimir

@Towerlord
Well, Nathir is good early and mediocre later as you MUST get some serious spellpower to utilize the destructive spells. A might army can defeat him swiftly with a mass haste if he doesn't. With other heroes you are not tied to destructive and can use more counters.
About the 20 power in week 4 only with exp enlightenment and if you buy/find knowledge artifacts. And...At least?

Necromancy now gives motn instead of skeleton archers so you can focus on all 3 dark masteries

@ZombieLord
Hey, I just said that I may not get them EVERY time! Otherwise both are usually accessible in week 2- maybe not with treasure cave because there is still the 10.000 for capitol! You know, if you recruit them for the last battle and use an arcane shield they get really dangerous but you usually have better options. If the opponent ignores them and they cast a spell instead of attacking maybe...
Gremlins don't do much damage but with their initiative an armour decreasing artie is useful.

@TheDeath
Multiple dwellings is a bad idea that gives lucky heroes with a rich region an even better advantage. Or the possibility to build a few skelie dwellings returning the massive skelie stacks...That's a step backwards I'm afraid. If the opponent manages to find another town so be it but that's too much. You may counter that you can do that to but some towns have an advantage over others this way due to resource requirements and the nature of some units.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted March 06, 2007 06:30 PM

Quote:

@Towerlord
Well, Nathir is good early and mediocre later as you MUST get some serious spellpower to utilize the destructive spells. A might army can defeat him swiftly with a mass haste if he doesn't. With other heroes you are not tied to destructive and can use more counters.
About the 20 power in week 4 only with exp enlightenment and if you buy/find knowledge artifacts. And...At least?

Necromancy now gives motn instead of skeleton archers so you can focus on all 3 dark masteries




the whole talk was about 20+ knowledge , not spell power, knowledge very needed for good mini artifacts .. you didn't read corectly... and also you didn't read my whole post, and so you didn't understand the strategy.
its not so easy to defeat a full army of Nathir, with resistance artifacts on every creatures(if you have plenty of resources you could add also initiative to that, but probably you won't have)... Nathir is Armageddoning every time he gets his turns... in 2 , max 3 turns , the whole opposing army is dead for sure , cause week 4 army aren't that big , and your troops are resisting most of the damage, and if you get the shield with +2 def and 50% fire resistance , its gonna be almost 100%!

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Elvin
Elvin


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Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted March 06, 2007 06:43 PM

Actually I understood but misposted! I am just wondering how damaging the armageddon will be in case you are rushed. Your units still die easily by normal attacks though a magic hero would certainly find it difficult to counter that. Btw about how much damage does your average armageddon do at week 4? Not sure how much the special adds.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 06, 2007 06:52 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 18:57, 06 Mar 2007.

The special adds nothing to armageddon afaik. unless it was fixed, that is.

And, with majority of the points going into knowledge, the spellpower remains high, but nowhere near warlock's one. MoTW doesn't help here, too.

That means you'll do around 400 damage per armageddon, 600 with cape you should obviously get. If enemy has 7 stacks, that is 4,2k damage total. Not bad, not bad. A warlock with one lucky empowered armageddon, cape and 24SP could do ~3200 damage armageddon, and that's ~23k in one turn against seven stacks, but that would definitely desintegrate all his army in process.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted March 06, 2007 07:25 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 19:26, 06 Mar 2007.

Quote:
Multiple dwellings is a bad idea that gives lucky heroes with a rich region an even better advantage. Or the possibility to build a few skelie dwellings returning the massive skelie stacks...That's a step backwards I'm afraid. If the opponent manages to find another town so be it but that's too much. You may counter that you can do that to but some towns have an advantage over others this way due to resource requirements and the nature of some units.
Well firstly why is a "massive" skelie stack much better than a regular army that will block them? You also have to remember that the dwelling costs some money, the skellies cost some money, and probably most importantly it costs town points (i.e one day). If you go for massive skeleton stacks then you miss your other creatures which would have protected them. And one stack is not always advantageous, because some spells like Wasp swarm or single-target spells work much better at that purpose -- this way a player with lots of marksmen for example can be beaten easily if you have Paladins because they will block them with their charge. That's why it's strategic in my opinion -- you just have to think about your choices being made. If the opponent finds out your army, then you might have to deal with a counter-able army, and will most probably fail to win if you don't take that into consideration and do something (probably recruiting for example Archangels to protect and ressurect your marksmen while griffins battle dive on enemy shooters). At this stage you're left to build whatever you want. Of course the high level creatures' cost could be lowered and tweakened, as right now an equivalent number of skeletons in gold as any tier 7s are much more "powerful" in terms of power rating. There are obvious balance changes that must be tweakened, not too hard really.

As for the lucky resources well isn't right now the same? I mean just because you are allowed to build multiple dwellings doesn't mean that you will end up with all the normal dwellings + another 100. It just is a very long game () and those extra lucky resources won't make much of a difference.

This is especially interesting when players will have to face each other to fight for mines rather than to face neutrals (even if not with the main hero). Player vs player fights are what needs to be encouraged in a MP game, not feasting on neutrals, that's why we're playing multiplayer, at least in my opinion.

If you take some time to analyze it, you'll see it's not that imbalanced, only that it changes the heroes' atmosphere, which I think is changing for the good.

@Doomforge:
Quote:
The special adds nothing to armageddon afaik.  unless it was fixed, that is.
I think I did it as well and didn't add, but can't remember, probably a long time ago, I don't play much with Academy.

Quote:
That means you'll do around 400 damage per armageddon, 600 with cape you should obviously get. If enemy has 7 stacks, that is 4,2k damage total. Not bad, not bad. A warlock with one lucky empowered armageddon, cape and 24SP could do ~3200 damage armageddon, and that's ~23k in one turn against seven stacks, but that would definitely desintegrate all his army in process.
What I usually always see about warlocks is the empowered lucky spell. At the best case luck has a 50% chance to trigger. And even that you need 3 skills for luck to get only 30%. And Warlock's luck ability AND useless Soldier's Luck (for Warlock) except Shadow Matriarchs with their whip.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted March 06, 2007 07:44 PM

it still doesn't work ... but that doesn't matter , you can make 3000-4000 dmg / turn and that is really good ! Even Dungeon can't reach this damages with its empowered lucky spells (implo or meteor).

I got ~700 dmg with cape in multi game... but i was unlucky at getting spell power ... when i was lucky @ getting spell power , but didm't get cape i did almost the same dmg

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted March 06, 2007 07:45 PM
Edited by Elvin at 19:47, 06 Mar 2007.

@TheDeath

Perhaps you remember the marksmen and skeletons in early versions and how they fared even against huge armies. Especially the marksmen were nigh unstoppable and their dwelling is EASY to build. Easy to shield and very effective till you weaken them.

Some units when amassed become imba such as vamp lords, grim raiders and paladins. A charging paladin with luck and retribution may kill stacks in one hit and adding to their numbers...A larger number of treants wouldn't be as threatening for instance.

Also with the growing of armies grows the importance of light/dark magic while destructive becomes less useful in big maps as armies will grow faster than spellpower.

Doing that seriously reduces the need for tier 7 units which is appaling In 1.0 almost everyone skipped them to stand a chance in multiplayer.

It's not as much choice in what you build to have specific counters rather than luck in what resources you get. Luck is already an important factor in the game let's make it more chaotic right? Why should lucky guys exploit their luck EVEN more so that they can get extra creatures out of nowhere? Training was imba in 1.0 because with enough money you were undefeatable and that's practically the same thing.

And training would become less unique anyway.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 06, 2007 07:59 PM

Quote:
Well firstly why is a "massive" skelie stack much better than a regular army that will block them?


How? Wraights and vamps around and before you could kill them all, skellies demolished 90% of your army. Good that's in the past.

Quote:
You also have to remember that the dwelling costs some money, the skellies cost some money, and probably most importantly it costs town points (i.e one day). If you go for massive skeleton stacks then you miss your other creatures which would have protected them.


Huh? Are you refering to pre-2.1 patches? Skellie archers were free due necromancy, and their dwelling was the cheapest one around anyway.

Quote:
And one stack is not always advantageous, because some spells like Wasp swarmp

Doesn't work vs. undead. Knights had haste and divine guidance.

Quote:
or single-target spells work much better at that purpose -- this way a player with lots of marksmen for example can be beaten easily if you have Paladins because they will block them with their charge.


YOU COULDN'T BLOCK NEITHER SKELLIE ARCHERS, NOR MARKSMEN IN PRE 2.1! Before you killed their guards, your hardest hitters were DEAD! Yeah, go charge at squires, kill them and get a piercing shot from 600 marksmen in response, have fun so good that ubi ended that.

Quote:
If you take some time to analyze it, you'll see it's not that imbalanced

Nothing is imbalanced in 2.1.. yes, yes..

Quote:
What I usually always see about warlocks is the empowered lucky spell. At the best case luck has a 50% chance to trigger. And even that you need 3 skills for luck to get only 30%. And Warlock's luck ability AND useless Soldier's Luck (for Warlock) except Shadow Matriarchs with their whip.


My warlocks always have a luck of ~5, the luck arties are common, cheap and easy to obtain, plus there are hundreds of map objects that give you a lot of luck. What's the problem with visiting such objects before attacking? After all, you are the one meant to harass your enemy(as a warlock) not the enemy, unless he is a demonlord. You need three skills? So? You need level 21 or so for a perfect warlock anyway. How many lvls you need for a perfect knight? Painfully more.


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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted March 06, 2007 08:10 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 21:26, 06 Mar 2007.

@Elvin: I remember the marksmen very well. But they were weak without protection from Palas, Battle Diving my shooters (with no squires).. The point about this is that in the current game, you do not even have that many choices.

Marksmen alone for example fail remarkably against a decent army of the same power. As for big stacks of treant of course they won't have uses -- but multiple dwellings does not mean to build only one stack of creatures, that is exactly the opposite. It's used to make your army counter the enemy's one selectable. Take this example:

The enemy has a lot of sprites. If you know that, you could build this tactic (dwellings) to counter him: Treants, Druids and Master Hunters. While the sprites come and charge at you, your treants can entangle them (though the sprite's massive number can decimate the treants in 3-4 turns I presume), but until that happens your master hunters being in close range and with possibly lucky warding arrows will cleary kill them off. All I'm saying is that using multiple dwellings will become more varied armies -- this does not imply that the armies will be bigger, because you won't have more income, just different kind of armies (i.e instead of enemy building angels you build 4 dwellings of low level creatures). Note by the way that low level dwellings require much more town points (i.e days) to reach the power of a high level dwellings -- that's why the latter is more expensive. Sometimes time is crucial, you cannot endlessly have infinite dwellings of marksmen because you simply have no gold, there's no point in building them. And as for my example above with the Master hunters, they would clearly be dead without their aids such as druids or treants (endurance on treants would be nice as well).

Some units just work better together. That's the point of multiple dwellings -- to select the "right" combination for countering the enemy's army. For example, it's natural to create low-level creatures when you know the enemy has strong destructive. By the way even with Warlocks it's a natural strategy to rethink what you lvl up, you don't always select destructive, else it would be predictable and a flaw against your opponent (not to mention that it's boring).

Multiple dwellings allow you to use your "type" of armies that are better off against the enemy. For example you would not recruit treants against the enemy if he has only shooters. Likewise with your hero having teleportation, then the treant vs shooter could have a greater impact. And even then you need some offensive units like hunters or war dancers, since it's better to use melee against enemy shooters. This does not lead to bigger armies, how many times did you have infinite gold in this game? Or infinite resources (because additional dwellings cost resources). This will imply that Haven even now will be the king, but I don't think that's the case. Training is very cheap and doesn't require the Order of Paladin building, which is very expensive, right?

Low level dwellings are cheap, but they cost town points. About marksmen being protected prior to 2.1, yes but remember that you only built Hall of Heroes and Training grounds, which meant much less than the amount of dwellings you would need. The tactic with the squires being protected and all that requires different dwellings, it's not only the marksmen that do the job you see.

Plus not to mention that if there is only 1 squire it will be dead immediately. For that tactic you could use dragons. Another example would be Paladins, you required them to cleanse your army -- so it's not only the marksmen, please think about it. The overall "balanced" army as it is now in Haven isn't weaker, believe it. It's just not strategic, but the enemy has no choices either. That's why it isn't imbalanced.

The marksmen stuff was imbalanced because the enemy couldn't counter them with his "different" army than the precomputed growth one. I said you could block marksmen if they were alone -- if they are protected by squires and Paladins then it's not only marksmen anymore -- you need other dwellings. That was my point.

Why are the equivalent marksmen (in power) better than any other army? Plus if you have counters with the hero (as you can currently, since the army is limited by the growth) then you could Wasp swarm like hell. This is only one counter, there could be more, but first we would need the army-generation counters a.k.a ability to recruit what you want.

------

EDIT: Another note I figured out dunno how good it is:

Let's say both you are haven (1vs1), what's stopping you from making the marksmen as him? There is no imbalance as long as you can do it yourself.

BUT you will realize in time that the best strategy can be found elsewhere, probably with enough experience you'll create an army much more capable of dealing with the opponent's marksmen-squire-paladin tactic. And he will later change his tactics as well. It will be much more varied. Again that does not mean bigger armies --> instead of building, let's say the inquisitor dwelling you could build peasant huts (), so it's a trade-off.. time is still critical, just more varied armies. But your opponent may wack you off if you're unprepared and he has Inquisitors coupled with I-don't-know-what army and will probably finish you as you didn't expect it. Things like that will make the tavern worthy of buying information and viewing his army


The idea with 2 classes per race is even more interesting -- you will have a different hero each time, and I mean different from the roots, from the class. It will be much more challenging to fight against someone who isn't predictable. If the low level dwellings are too cheap or the high level ones too expensive for their worth (apart from the fact that you must build them now unless you want a small army), then that can be easily tweaked. High level creatures are overpriced for their power (rating used by Nival), but that can be tweaked.. overall it will work with just little or no tweaks on the resource/money spent on the buildings and creatures. That's relatively easy to set up

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted March 07, 2007 12:14 AM

Not that easy. My arguments were just a part of the problems it creates I'm afraid. An overall resource rebalancing would have to take place as well as further deterrents not to abuse the production of certain units. One way is the capping of dwellings but the point is that a lot or work and checking is required for Nival to even contemplate.
Otherwise I'm just against it both for the difficulty in balancing each faction with another, the chance for certain players to abuse it to gain an advantage and the whole difference it brings to homm gameplay. If more options are to be introduced I would prefer to see it in another way(s) though that is not the right thread for that.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted March 07, 2007 12:42 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 13:02, 07 Mar 2007.

Quote:
Not that easy. My arguments were just a part of the problems it creates I'm afraid. An overall resource rebalancing would have to take place as well as further deterrents not to abuse the production of certain units. One way is the capping of dwellings but the point is that a lot or work and checking is required for Nival to even contemplate.
Otherwise I'm just against it both for the difficulty in balancing each faction with another, the chance for certain players to abuse it to gain an advantage and the whole difference it brings to homm gameplay. If more options are to be introduced I would prefer to see it in another way(s) though that is not the right thread for that.
I still don't get this: 58 Master Gremlins have the same power rating as a Titan. So I don't get why they are more powerful? Many "abusing" of enemy recruiting only one type of creatures will be present, but IMO you'll see that will not be the most "bold" thing to do -- since the enemy can do that as well, and believe that more types of units is usually better. The only downfall are the dwelling costs for higher creatures. But one marksmen dwellings is not as powerful as one ArchAngel dwellings, due to the fact that 12 marksmen are much weaker than an ArchAngel (i'm not talking about the costs, but about the power rating).

As for these ideas I can't really say I came up with them myself alone. Most of the stuff is borrowed from other games/experiences with strategies I had.

The balance changes, if this will be implemented, will be easy -- even myself can do it and test it (i.e mod it). The fact that all higher-level creatures are more "expensive" than their power worth (i.e 58 Master gremlins have the same power as a Titan, but are much cheaper). This could be tweaked easily -- you just need to find out the factor by which to reduce the cost of the higher-level creatures. For example, 4700/2030 (58 Master gremlin cost) yields 2.31, meaning that tier 7s are 2.31 more expensive than the power equivalent of low level creatures. Either divide by this value the cost of the Titan, OR increase the gremlin's cost. Whatever you want with either way: if you want less money and less armies, then increase gremlin cost, otherwise decrease Titan cost.

For the dwelling costs it's also quite easy to balance -- just make sure that 3 Gremlin Workshops (yields 60 gremlins which is aprox to 58) to have the same "growth/power" as tier 7s. You can either increase the cost of these low-level dwellings (of course ONLY the ones after the first one count, so the game as we know now isn't affected.. i.e from the second Gremlin Workshop built onwards cost more to compensate!). There could be more ideas and I'll be really helpful if you can come up with something.

As for the strategies that this will add to the game, you can test a map made by yourself, just make sure to put enough "external" dwellings to compensate for the "army of your choice" -- you won't have money to recruit everything from them anyway, but you will have to make strategic decisions about what fits your army better and what can hurt and counter the enemy -- i.e increase your chances to win. This greatly increases the freedom of choices you can opt for in this game. That's why I hate the current system: the "external" dwellings are fixed to a number on a given map, but it would be much more challenging and interesting if you could build them yourself in your town, so your army could really be different than the opponent's one, not just have different heroes. I think it will be a great enchancement over the game.

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