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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted July 11, 2001 11:10 AM |
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I think you all missed the point
Zedrin has it right when he said that we were basically 'fed' our education. If you want to learn something out of the 'norm' (for example, what do I know of colonial settler/aboriginal relations in the 19th century (a period that covers 50% of australian history), then I ashamedly admit to knowing nothing or exceptionally little. Schools do not want us to truly learn about real history or real politics until we're of the age that we have to seek out the proper avenues and thus, pay for them.
A great teacher of mine always taught me to 'think for yourself', and I do. Students are content to merely get through school and classes with as little pain as possible. Sure rebellion is common nowadays, but Zedrin is not talking about the 'tell the teacher to get stuffed' kind of rebellion. It's about thinking differently, on a level that fewer students are thinking and sometimes, even on levels that the teachers themselves find difficult to agree with.
Pluvious, you see people who go against the norm as not interesting and you see this rebelliousness as a sign of trying to fit in. I wonder where you came up with this sort of logic, because it doesn't make much sense, please clarify.
You agree with being able to think on as many different levels as possible, yet you strive for acceptance by others. Acceptance is merely taking the route of least resistance, it is amazingly easy to conform to a wider view amongst society, you do not need to 'strive' for this.
Deth deth deth. Sigh. How can you 'imagine' rebellion to be common among schools across the globe? I can't imagine what rebellion would bring a student in China or Africa or England. And only once did I meet a student (in my short schooling career, lol!) who was truly unique in his way of thinking and I tell you, he was something special. Nothing like the other 'oh, I just want to get out of here, stuff the teachers, I can't be bothered with this anymore' kindof reply that I always got. This guy took a teacher's well prepared spiel and tore it to shreds, time after time, and it was obvious to all that he was clearly more contentious and curious than the teacher would have liked. I don't know how many times I got the response 'Cang, just shut up and listen.' That always reminded me of the schooling 'system' and how I was expected to swallow every last piece of garbage that these teachers gave me.
Oh, by the way, how can something be 'typical' (across the globe) amongst the 'minority' yet many just comply for a variety of reasons?
If I told you that the sky was blue, would you believe me just because you wanted to 'fit' in or to 'comply for a variety of reasons'?
Sometimes I feel really really naiive, but sometimes people just sound so old and solid in their ways that I start to think of myself as far more wise than I give myself credit for and perhaps it is everyone else who is naiive. But then again, a statement like that would be naiive of me wouldn't it?
*smile*
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted July 11, 2001 08:11 PM |
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Quote:
Agh! This post is huge! Isn`t honor thing clear enough? Do we really need to disgust more?
I don't know Thunder... Do you really need to disgust more?
j/k
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 11, 2001 11:12 PM |
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"Pluvious, you see people who go against the norm as not interesting and you see this rebelliousness as a sign of trying to fit in. I wonder where you came up with this sort of logic, because it doesn't make much sense, please clarify".
First off, I wasn't directly confronting anyone's ideas of rebelliousness on this thread. It was more a generalization. I see "the norm" as different than most, although not entirely. Against the norm (one definition anyway) for me is someone who uses original thinking on a regular basis, and can adapt to situations as he/she sees fit. This is why being "rebellious" consitutes a set idea, and thus makes this individual stagnant on a certain level.
By the way Shae I like much of what you say, but it sometimes appears as though you are presuming too much about me or others. I realize you are simply trying to get discussions going though, hopefully with the intent to find out what people are really about...
A couple of questions though. You quickly attack peoples ideas (and often the people with those ideas in the process). Do you have a reason for this? DO you feel it is right or good or do you care? And how do you feel if someone attacks you personally or your ideas? Mainly, though, would you be open to someone finding some flaw/imperfection in your makeup (or do people not have flaws?)? And would that be hurtful or not? Or would it be helpful to you in both the short or long run?
Hopefully, you can answer these questions. You seem capable enough...(lol)
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted July 12, 2001 02:25 PM |
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To be or not to be?
Pluvious, I am not perfect. LOL I sure claim to be, but deep down inside, my bravado is only skin deep and underneath, I guess I'm as soft as anyone else (Zedrin excepted  ).
I make presumptions about people because I'm a presumptious person. My ideas and actions I believe to be true, I must hold them to be true, otherwise there would be no point in being the person that I am, I would merely be somebody with a set of values which I myself don't even believe in. This for me, is the ultimate lie and one that I refuse to live. Because of this, I do get defensive and I find that the best form of defence is a good offence.
This having been said though, I am not ignorant. Someone who criticizes me and my ideas with a valid argument I will listen to, and even respect. The only way I can grow is through listening to people wiser than myself, learning from them in the hope that I can pass my newfound wisdom on to other people.
Yes, being outspoken and sometimes offensive is the only way to get a good response from people. Come on how many of you are really contentious people? How many of you are good at constantly being outside your own comfort zones and challenging others to make your inner beliefs look like swiss cheese? Are you all scared to expose yourself to the criticism of others in the hope that perhaps you'll learn something?
I once met a guy, wealthy and very very rich (no I didn't marry him!) who was utterly at ease with everything around him. Nothing at all seemed to faze him and everything I spoke to him about, he had a nice, relaxed answer for. He told me that he had spent so much of his life being 'uncomfortable' with different situations that eventually it got to the stage where very little made him uneasy. He had a really easy grin too, one of the things I always remember about him. He was a wise man and ever since then, I've craved that sort of comfort.
I guess that I always quickly attack peoples ideas because I find them to be either wrong, or full of garbage. That's not to say that I'm not full of it either, it's just that we come back to the point of me being who I am and holding what I believe to be true very close to me. If I cannot tell people 'I think you are wrong' then I guess there's not really much point in me holding any values at all. I should just agree with them, have a quiet laugh and walk on by.
However, if I have a wrong conception, then I'd like it for someone to stand up and say 'That's not the way it goes!' so I can learn from them. If there is no interaction then there is no learning. Sure it hurts for me to realize that I am mistaken, but so too is losing a game of heroes. What really matters to me though is making sure that I have understood what has been said and that I grow to become a better person. It is very sad to see people who are wrong and continue to think that way, even after it has been shown that they are off-track.
I cannot help the passion that I feel, I'm an emotional kinda girl, but if you don't like it, tough luck. I will never turn into a deadbeat just to tone things down.
If I'm wrong, then I will be the first to admit to being wrong. But after I've admitted to being wrong then I'm right again aren't I?
So therefore...I'm never wrong... LOL!
That was just a joke for you go-slow people out there!
*smile*
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ugene_de_mue...
Adventuring Hero
Romanii ca brazii
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posted July 12, 2001 08:06 PM |
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Hmmm, Shae
" My ideas and actions I believe to be true, I must hold them to be true, otherwise there would be no point in being the person that I am"
The danger, Shae, is that of becoming a very narrowed person...What you said there seems like you put a thick wall before your eyes saying that you still have a perfect perspective. And this is just another way of aging...Most of the "open-minded" writers and phylosophers of the last 2 centuries have destroyed themselves by doing exactly what you said there.
It is actually quite a sad paradox if you think about it, such great and open minds falling in the trap they knew oh so well...
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 12, 2001 08:33 PM |
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Whoahh there Ugene...lets not be comparing Shae to any well known writers or philosopheres! Judging by her inflated sense of herself that is the last thing she needs...(lol)
Actually that was very well said Shae...and I was just checking. As long as you are open-minded the rest is just the accumulation of experience.
One thing though...that rich guy...wealth is a strong means for control. And the more control a person has the more "at ease" with a variety of situations they will be. It comes down to experience. Experience leads to confidence.
Many people in their work environment seem totally at ease and able to deal with anything...especially when they are the best (and know it). Women who are very beautiful appear totally in control around a group of men often times. This basically comes down to not having to fear things. If you create the illusion you are in control then the fear is gone. I'm not saying anything most people don't know...but its interesting to put it to words.
The real trick is simply being at ease and getting rid of fear simply because you know fear to be irrational...a worthy goal to be sure.
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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ugene_de_mue...
Adventuring Hero
Romanii ca brazii
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posted July 12, 2001 10:31 PM |
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I think someone should open a topic called : "Shae_Trielle: everything we know, want to know, think about her" and she would not be allowed to post there...hehehehehehe...what would do that to her ego, Pluvious?
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Give me one year and I'll teach your horse to speak
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted July 13, 2001 11:37 PM |
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EXCUSE ME?!
I do NOT have a frickin' ego! Say about me all you will, but damned well be prepared for a response because I don't take crap from ANYONE!
Pluvious, I do not have an inflated sense of myself, you do not know me very well at all. I have made no claims to being very smart or very intelligent or 'all this'. Just because I have a strong opinion about many things does not mean I am egotistic.
You are right though in your assessment of illusions and fear. My confidence is nothing but bravado, but if you were to ask me if I was truly confident in myself... I'd have to answer no.
Know me before you judge me, judge me and you shall know me.
Shae_Trielle
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Kuma
Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
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posted July 13, 2001 11:46 PM |
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some one just moved up the ladder of my most favorite persons here.... Altough too bad that ur 'anger' prevented u from reading the whole intention of Pluvius' post Shae. But well spoken anyway
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.
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ugene_de_mue...
Adventuring Hero
Romanii ca brazii
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posted July 14, 2001 02:37 AM |
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The world is as it is
It seems that you consider these manners extremly seriously, Shae...That being the case, I must apologize, since Pluvius'es reply was related to mine...and also for my joke.
It was not my intention to offend you, joking and making silly jokes it's just my way of getting through life, just like you have yours...but I like to laugh with and not about someone...
But don't ever expect not to be judged. Everyone will. And, with few exceptions, they will be wrong, and they will act upon yourself according to their misassumptions. Even those who remain neutral are judging you, and they are bigger hypocrites.
But of course, basically, life is funny.
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Give me one year and I'll teach your horse to speak
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ugene_de_mue...
Adventuring Hero
Romanii ca brazii
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posted July 14, 2001 03:16 AM |
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One more thing...I always thought that the agressives and confrontativs persons were actually extremly insecure...and they usually end up in offending the talk-partner( i don't know if that's the right formula, damn english), as they run out of arguments.
I might be wrong, but, then again, I could never see the point of confrontative disscusions. What is the point in convincing the other person that your ideeas are true, as opposed to his? To turn that person into a mirror image of yourself? Lol, wouldn't that change the world into a exremly boring place?
But, of course, the world is still, basically, funny.
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Give me one year and I'll teach your horse to speak
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted July 14, 2001 09:41 AM |
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Sigh....
I am much more relaxed now, lol. I was rather ticked off at letting this conversation become about me and not about the whole honour thing.
You guys have more merit in judging me than I do myself, I always expect to be judged but the being the hypocrite that I am, I do not always like to be judged truthfully. I guess it hurts and makes me think about who I am. I will probably have a rather restless night tonight, lol.
I'm sorry if I didn't see the humour in your posts, lol I feel so stupid because I always criticize other people for not seeing the humour in mine.  Hypocrite_Trielle, LOL.
Anyway, enough of me, I'm starting to feel really foolish.
Shae
PS: Does anyone have anything interesting to talk about?
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 16, 2001 10:23 AM |
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heyhey
Nice posts last two pages, I enjoyed it, I want to add something about how terrible education is and all the other things, but I'm out of time for tonight sadly, hopefully I remember to post here tomorrow- this is just to remind me when I am scanning the posts that I wanted to say something more.
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Kuma
Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
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posted July 16, 2001 11:37 AM |
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Quote:
Anyway, enough of me, I'm starting to feel really foolish.
Shae
PS: Does anyone have anything interesting to talk about?
Yeah, I know something interesting: how about talking about Shae and her inflated sence of herself?
No, serious Shae, it was very interesting to c, how u completely missed the intention of Pluvius' mail.
Well done for taking it so well, when u (finally) got it.
I like it when people can do that. Ur ok, a bit 'slow' but ok
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.
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Avallach
Hired Hero
Disputo ergo sum.
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posted July 16, 2001 11:47 AM |
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Quote:
" My ideas and actions I believe to be true, I must hold them to be true, otherwise there would be no point in being the person that I am"
The danger, Shae, is that of becoming a very narrowed person...What you said there seems like you put a thick wall before your eyes saying that you still have a perfect perspective. And this is just another way of aging...Most of the "open-minded" writers and phylosophers of the last 2 centuries have destroyed themselves by doing exactly what you said there.
It is actually quite a sad paradox if you think about it, such great and open minds falling in the trap they knew oh so well...
Just had to jump in and disagree with what you're saying here, Ugene. For someone to say that they hold something to be true is not to say that they have a perfect perspective, but just that they have a perspective. Is that 'narrow'? Perhaps. Is it bad, or flawed? I don't think so. And if you were to say that it was, I think you'd find yourself in a bit of a paradox . The fact is, we all have opinions about things. We all believe certain things to be true, and the nature of logic is such that this will preclude other things from being true. Narrow mindedness is not holding to one set of opinions over another, stating these to be true and those to be false. It would be better stated as the inability to conceive the possibility that you might be wrong, denying that any external evidence or argument can have a bearing on your opinion. Open-mindedness, as I see it, is being able to hold to a set of opinions and beliefs while still being able to evaluate them. And argue them in a rational discussion, as people have been doing here.
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"Death slew him not, but he made death his ladder to the skies"
- Edmund Spenser, on the death of Philip Sidney
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ugene_de_mue...
Adventuring Hero
Romanii ca brazii
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posted July 17, 2001 12:12 AM |
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"The fact is, we all have opinions about things. We all believe certain things to be true, and the nature of logic is such that this will preclude other things from being true."
Perhaps it is the nature of bivalent logic, but we both know that this kind of logic is not appliable when it comes to human behaviour.
"Narrow mindedness is not holding to one set of opinions over another, stating these to be true and those to be false. It would be better stated as the inability to conceive the possibility that you might be wrong, denying that any external evidence or argument can have a bearing on your opinion. "
Lol, this is not narrow mindedness. This is plain insanity.
"Open-mindedness, as I see it, is being able to hold to a set of opinions and beliefs while still being able to evaluate them."
What if, evaluating his opinions, one discovers that his opinions are wrong? Is he supposed to continue to hold on to them, considering that he is the sum of his opinions and beliefs? Would this not be an exremly frustrated individual?
Open mindedness is the abillity to change. Not as in 'evolving'( unfortunatlly, I do not believe in one's capacity to evolve beyond certain limits) but as in 'adapting'.
And, actually, often I do preffer irational disscutions...so I think I'll head to Kuma's tavern...
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Give me one year and I'll teach your horse to speak
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted July 17, 2001 02:53 PM |
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A bit slow, but okay
LOL.
What is the true nature of right and wrong, correct and incorrect? And how do these things tie in with our sense of self and understanding of the world and the people around us?
Very simply, you come across ideas which make a sort of 'righteous' sense to you and your ideals. When this happens, you often take these ideas to be 'truth', perhaps not immediately, but after a period of evaluation. You alter your view of the world and/or people around you. This is a form of self-growth, we all must do it to develop some sort of wisdom in life. The same rule applies to ideas which make little sense to you at all, you reject them either because you lack the capacity to fully understand them, or merely because you THINK you know better.
Everything you know about the world and about the people around you, you trust in. You must hold values and morals and beliefs and a certain understanding of your position in life. If you do NOT have any of the above, then I see you not as 'open minded' but passionless, a person who cares not whether they are right or wrong, a person who is too afraid to commit themselves to a principle or an idea. These people for me are cowards.
That I believe most people to be of the former example has led some of you guys to label me inflated, and too self assured. You missed the wryness in my remarks about me being always right. Everybody in a sense is 'always right'. I've never seen a person who KNEW that their beliefs and opinions were wrong. Nobody does this. (Oh I reckon nuclear war is okay, even though I know I'm wrong).
You must be flexible in your ideas and beliefs, you must be open to new suggestions and theories. What you do with those theories is irrelevant because the fact that you are willing to listen to them and judge them on their own merit automatically makes you 'open minded'.
I change my opinions as I become more experienced in things. One thing I always promised myself was never to become mired down in the old ways of tradition UNLESS I had a very good reason to stick with tried and true methods. I find most traditions to be a matter of human laziness, the inability to concieve of new ideas and ways to approach things. Tradition also lends a feeling of comfort, of familiarity to people, regardless of whether the traditional 'act' is outdated or no longer sensible.
Avallach, the beginning of your post was superb, I found you hit the nail right on the head (ouch!) The nature of logic though, doesn't necessarily preclude us from other things being true. Logic dictates that a subject matter must be assessed in order for it to be discarded as false or ill at ease with other perceptions about life. If logic precluded us from the possibility of other things being true then a logical person would be very narrow minded indeed, lol!
To call me narrow minded and egotistic and slow is not quite what I expected from you guys, but then again, I guess I make judgements that aren't exactly inline with your own expectations of yourselves either, so I guess we're square. Just understand that I do recognize when I am wrong and I will always adjust my opinion accordingly.
Flow like the river and you will never be the same, stagnate like a rock pool, and insects will breed.
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ugene_de_mue...
Adventuring Hero
Romanii ca brazii
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posted July 17, 2001 11:10 PM |
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Sometimes I hate myself for skipping the English classes...
Heheee...it was never my intention to call you narrow-minded, Shae...I guess your Huge Ego twisted all out
This talk about holding your beliefs and such is enlightening, actually as I was thinking at your reply, I discovered why I am so pissed off with this whole thing.
It is a very simple and personal matter.
A while ago, when I was very young, I moved in a totally new enviroment. As I was lonely and extremly naive, I came to follow different persons. They attracted me because they had strong beliefs. Strong principals. That doesn't mean that I could not think for myself, just that they where hosts in a game I was barely understanding. And, of course, they all let me down. None of them acted according to the principals they claimed.
I guess that because I was very vulnerable then, I come to be suspicious about all the individuals who talk about holding to principals and beliefs. It is much too easy to say certain things. There should exist some requirements your mouth should meet before pronouncing them...but that's not how the things stand.
Hehehehee...I am the sum of my missconceptions, frustrations and wrong judgements. I think I'll just go spend all my money in Kuma's Tavern. Again.
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Give me one year and I'll teach your horse to speak
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted July 18, 2001 01:47 AM |
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Well it's been a while...
Right and wrong? Correct and incorrect?
What do we really know? We assume that since some rules apply to us they apply to everyone and everything...They don't. We envision the general starting from the particular, but how do we know that the particular isn't also singular? There is no right or wrong, there are no absolutes probably. I can't say certainly because in reality it is but an opinion not a "general truth".
We understand only from our own point of view. We understand what is familiar to us.
Did you ever think that there may be things so alien to us that our brains might simply ignore or not acknowledge them? Things so different that they defy our every sense? In psychology we find experiences that are blocked simply because they are too painful to acknowledge... What if something like that happens to things we refuse to see, to sense? But i'm sidetracking...again.
Whoever trusts in everything he knows is a fool. The outer layer is rarely the true image. What we know determines what we understand. True trust comes only with questioning. If the questions bring no answers, then why trust? Just because you should?
We accept ideas and theories or we refuse them. It all depends on how much we are willing to change... But we always change. There is no "peace" we are always in a state of turmoil, twisting and bending to meet our needs. Not always consciously though.
Why must you hold values and morals? Perhaps you find them false and unappealing, perhaps you find them lacking what you need, that is the freedom to change at will, without being hindered by fixed ideas. "Your position in life" is not a certainty. What you understand know will be gone tomorrow, what you are now will be passé next morning.
Acknowledging that you can be wrong at any given time gives you an edge over time, for you are more liable to change and keep changing as the world turns. Knowing your beliefs are wrong simply demotes them from the status of beliefs to the status of opinions. A belief is not flexible, and opinion is. for if you believe then you do not question, you accept and follow. If you start arguing then you find flaws, that may or may not appeal to your sense of stability.
The feeling of comfort that tradition brings is often needed, especially now, in these fast changing times. Younger generations find it easier to change as they have been exposed to change far more often then older generations. For those that cannot change as fast or that simply lack the possibility to change, traditions bring a sense of security long awaited.
Anyway, i've said my part for now
____________
"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 19, 2001 03:12 AM |
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Ideas.
Quote:
A couple of questions though. You quickly attack peoples ideas (and often the people with those ideas in the process). Do you have a reason for this? DO you feel it is right or good or do you care? And how do you feel if someone attacks you personally or your ideas?
Pluvious;
This is really important actually. People so very often identify so strongly with their idea's that they can't take any disagreement. Just because you thought of something doesn't make that thing part of you. Many people have thought the same thoughts in the past. Likely will also in the future. When can you say a single new unigue thought occurs? You never know for sure, you only know the first time it is expresed.
I'll attack someone's ideas freely and I think it is their fault for feeling hurt or personally attacked. However, there is no need to attack personally since not only does this detract from the debate, but lessens the debate when emotion is brought into defense of percieved personal honor.
Ok, more replies to follow...
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