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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 25, 2001 11:35 AM |
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MOCARA!
If 'govern' means to set rules in which society should live by then the 'absence of a government' must means that there is no social frame in which others behave.
Mocara, I'm very sad, because you have completely missed the point of the term 'HONOUR'
I think the term that you're looking for is ANARCHY.
I'm sorry, but I do not see the words anarchy and honour on the same page in the Shae English Dictionary.
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 25, 2001 11:40 AM |
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honor can also simply be interpreted as being honest. This would be if someone said something like you have "honor".
But once again there might be some confusion in word usage. "Honor"...yes the word honor, has to do with the public and society and your place or "value" in it. Sometimes this word is misused, such as when you hear stories of a knight's "honor". In this context it may be misinterpreted as his "own" moral code, when in acutality it is referring to his code in regards to the whole of what others in his society/culture/group feel is good.
Desciphering the meanings of words is always difficult, as the meaning sometimes changes from time to time or place to place. Much like values are different, so are words and their meanings to different people.
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 25, 2001 11:40 AM |
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Nice "combo" of posts
As Al Pacino said in the "Devil's Advocate": "Free will... it is a snow."
Hehe, explain free will if you can to religious people. And I mean religious people, not just those that go to church because it is the thing to do.
They will say they are free, they will say that it is always their choice, but underneath those statements are shallow arguments like "You cannot understand if you do not believe"...
Well this is about it for now, got to eat some brain food, and to watch too much tv.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted April 26, 2001 07:55 AM |
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Well hats off to the whole discussion (and even to those who complain that we have gotten off subject..hehehe)…lots of good and interesting arguments.
Shae interesting point about honor being in the context of a relationship…I think you have a good point though I do think honor is more of an internal attribute that is brought forth through and only through relationships…so in a way it is both.
Mocara…again a good argument (I appreciate your intelligence)…but I find it interesting that you indirectly seem to prove why relativism is a nonexistent reality in that almost every statement you make is an “absolute” statement/belief (i.e. “Honor is personal. Different for everyone. It is a value and values are different for everyone, Honor is different for everyone.”). None of those statements/beliefs appear relative or tentative but authoritative and absolute.
Yes I agree that Hitler probably believed in absolute ideas but that is not a reason to reject “absolute” morality as those who stopped slavery also believed in absolute ideas…so it isn’t absolute morality that is the problem as much as inaccurate morality (the comparisons of “good” absolute morality versus “bad” absolute morality are endless so I won’t belabor the point).
Besides those who are truly moral relativist accomplish very little as they have few if any strong moral beliefs to direct their actions…so history will be replete with examples of “good” absolute morality and “bad” absolute morality with little examples of moral relativists (cause history doesn’t record the actions of those who don’t do anything)
Also I don’t know that morality can be boxed into examples of natural realities (cold versus hot) because while you are right that cold to someone in a warm climate is experienced different then those in a cold climate both people still agree there is an absolute idea of “coldness”. Additionally I think we tread on shaky ground when we try to compare physical realities to moral ideas.
I have also found that economic realities due little to compromise the “absolute” morals of those who truly believe….again history is full of these examples (the depression in USA, Gandhi, Jesus, etc.). Economic realities definitely test the strength and conviction of our absolute morality and may even temper the beliefs but rarely irradiate the convictions of those who are committed.
To those who believe that religious/church going people don’t really believe in free will…I have found that true on many occasions but overall I need to disagree as I consider myself very into spiritual issues and theology…I even attend church But I am a very strong advocate in free will and believe that it fits in very nicely to theology…we all have free will to accept or reject “evil” or God (be glad to discuss it with anyone interested)…well just my thoughts.
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 26, 2001 08:15 AM |
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:)
Ok, this is all good and well, but if you have the possibility of choice, how can you explain the omnipotence of a God? For if there is such a being, then our existence cannot limit it.
On the other hand, God can easily be a moral construct, built by the beliefs and wishes of the masses.
In this case free will can exist, but then the masses believe in an illusion.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 26, 2001 08:48 AM |
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I enjoy coca-cola.
pretty ugly is an oxymoron.
Treat people as you would like to be treated yourself.
All statements I believe to be true. What do they have to do with one another? Nothing...
(Disclaimer: The author is attempting to be humorous with the above trite but does not take responsibility for people not connecting it with other threads, or if they do find some relationship...he does not take responsibility for offense taken. This is the sole ownership of those who have made statements in direct proportional confusion as this disclaimer and/or thread) Ha?
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted April 26, 2001 08:55 AM |
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lol! Pluvious That is really, really funny. I was about to post something but your comment obliterates it in such a funny way!
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I miss my Ashjre'thul...
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 26, 2001 08:58 AM |
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This board seems to be turning into an oxymoron, lol
LOL Pluvious! I never actually realized how silly some things can get!
I've never heard of the word relativism, I'm not actually sure it exists in the dictionary or what the hell a relativist is either. Do you mean relativity?
The line seems to have been blurred somewhere between what is moral and what is honour. I'm not sure if I have the sharpness of mind to distinguish the two (lol, this stuff is draining!) but honour has more to do with what pluvious said. Do unto other as they do unto you.
Come to think of it, I wonder if I could sum up the true meaning of honour in ten simple Commandments....
*smile*
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted April 26, 2001 09:56 AM |
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Relativism is the belief that nothing is absolute. A relativist is someone who believes this. It is summed up with the statement that "everything is relative." It is a common feature of the postmodern philosophy that teaches that there is no point to the universe and nothing really matters, so have fun and do whatever makes you happy.
This is what I remember from my philo classes, hope it helps.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 26, 2001 10:17 AM |
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Nothing is absolute?
Ahhh, so relativism is another word for anarchy (that word again).
I understand that the universe doesn't seem to have any point, it doesn't have any bounds and everything done has some sort of relativity to everything else. I'm not a religious person, I strongly believe in free will and of the 'self', but I do not believe in doing whatever you please.
And I always thought that death was absolute...
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted April 26, 2001 11:38 AM |
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Shae wrote: "Ahhh, so relativism is another word for anarchy (that word again)."
Nope. Anarchy means no government. There are 2 definitions of the word anarchy; the first is Lack of Government, the second is Chaotic Situation. You should use the word Chaos, as that is what you seem to mean. Actual Anarchists (the card carrying anarchists that is, not angst ridden teens) feel there should be rules and guidelines just no government. They feel that things like congress, supreme court and stuff are not really neccessary. Which is really different that relativism.
Shae wrote: "I understand that the universe doesn't seem to have any point, it doesn't have any bounds and everything done has some sort of relativity to everything else."
It's all a matter of perspective isn't it? Does belief shape reality? Or does reality shape belief? And can we ever know? Still, it's fun to talk about in a pub with friends after a few drinks.
"I'm not a religious person, I strongly believe in free will and of the 'self', but I do not believe in doing whatever you please"
But isn't this contradictory? I think you realize this as it is a common argument but, how can there be free will that respects boundaries and rules. If something is not allowed then it's not really free. Right?
Shae wrote: "And I always thought that death was absolute..."
It's funny but I always thought that death was life.
Still, a relativist would probably argue that death cannot possibly be absolute because maybe it is possible to come back to life, nobody has actually chosen to yet though, except Lazarus and Christ of course. And after all don't most people choose death because they are tired of living. Besides maybe there is life after death which would mean that death is not absolute. How can we be sure? And to be postmodern for a sec, who cares?
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I miss my Ashjre'thul...
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted April 26, 2001 12:16 PM |
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Dargon in order to converse on this plain one must make statements from their beliefs.
I quote Socrates to explain my entire view of this life;
"The only thing I know is that I know nothing."
So I know no absolutes but I sell out to ideas I have when I converse.
With every opinion I state I can see an infinite amount of other views of what I just said. I believe the clinical term for that is insanity :-)
Am I saying my opinions are absolute?
Hell no. I'll leave that to Shae =)
-Mocara
P.S. Thanks for the props Mad.
"I once could see but now at last I'm blind." - Dream Theatre
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted April 26, 2001 12:54 PM |
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Quote:
Dargon in order to converse on this plain one must make statements from their beliefs.
I quote Socrates to explain my entire view of this life;
"The only thing I know is that I know nothing."
So I know no absolutes but I sell out to ideas I have when I converse.
With every opinion I state I can see an infinite amount of other views of what I just said. I believe the clinical term for that is insanity :-)
Another way to converse is to always refute the other person. Never make or advance a claim. Always seek to prove the other person wrong by examing their beliefs. This is an acceptable way to debate philosophy.
I love the circular logic of Plato's Socrates. It reminds me of Descartes.
Actually seeing an infinite number of views would make you God. The definition of insanity is someone that only has one view of the world. Or am I wrong? I can double check my pyschology texts if anybody cares.
But still Mocara doesn't the fact that you have no absolutes mean you can't actually reach any kind of agreement with others? Because this debate, about honor, is going to come down to semantics and if you are not willing to offer a defination of what you think honor is then talking to you would be a waste of time. Wouldn't it? Of course we could get into a debate about epistemology. That would be fun. Heidigger is cool. Hard to read but cool.
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I miss my Ashjre'thul...
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted April 26, 2001 01:37 PM |
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my apologies
Whoops, sorry everybody. After rereading the thread I see that Mocara did offer a defination of Honour. And it is a good one! Can't say I really disagree with it. Fits in well with Heidigger.
Honour is personal because there is no honour. Honour is the word we use to describe the actions of someone. Actions that we, personally, see as good or morally right. Therefore there is no such thing as honour because it is simply a description of an action. So when Mocara says that honour is personal and nigh near impossible to define I have to agree. But I will propose that honour is any action that appeals to the moral sensiblilties, the conscience if you will, of the viewer. Thus someone can be honourable and have honour without actually being honourable. Refutation anyone?
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I miss my Ashjre'thul...
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 26, 2001 02:34 PM |
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Jiels
Yes, I could fully agree with that, but at the same time, a part of me says that to define honour as non-existant and merely a description of somebody's actions is a bit of a cop out. LOL, I love how you guys quote me!
You can say that definition for honour can be applied to half of the words in the english dictionary. Idiots don't really exist, idiot is just a word we use to describe someone's actions....
Honour is very difficult to pen out though....
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 26, 2001 02:57 PM |
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"The only thing I know is that I know nothing"
Socrates
Well taste that sentence, and suddenly it becomes clear that its simply not true
I tried to live by it for some years, and found out that it was impossible. Is that because I dont really understand it? I dont think so.
What it all comes down to is what reference frame ur working in. In our case its clearly the language. We couldnt even have this discussion if we couldnt understand what we where saying to each other.
If someone is saying everything is relative, just talk to him for a few minutes, and soon it becomes clear that he is inconsistent with his own beliefs.
(I can in this context name the post modern philosophers, who without exception has contributed absolutely nothing to modern philosophy. Most boring part of studying philosophy )
Socrates point in all of Plato`s dialogues is in fact to disclaim all scepticist and relativist, and many of his points are as valid today as they where then.
I guess my point is that even if we discuss this thing Honor, and it seems like nobody is agreeing with any other, at some point we all agree. We all have similar notions off what a given word means, and that includes honor
I havent thought about moral realism vs relativism for a long time. But my BA was about the possibility of finding the Absolute truth in natural science. My finding was that it was possible, if u just choose the right reference frame. Guess the same thing applies for morality.
Defreni
(Search for Honor in TOH, maybe its ur best shot of finding it)
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 26, 2001 03:11 PM |
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"Do unto other as they do unto you. "
Yes... that would be a nice definition of Honor... perhaps not the right one...
"Do unto other as they do unto you."
So if someone cheats on you you just cheat back... May the best cheater win...
Is death absolute? Some would argue it is just a transfomation, that after death comes life. Some would argue that there is no death, just a continuous change of form, a series of upgrades that the spirit gets...Some would say that death is simply the end, we die and are gone, nothing of us lingers after this last stop.
Who knows...? Each of us shall find out eventually.
Now for Chaos... Is there such a thing as absolute Chaos in a material Universe? Where matter is present, True Chaos cannot exist, since matter is Pure Order, at least as far as we are concerned. But since there is such a thing as Order, there should be Chaos... Perhaps out of our reach, Perhaps outside the boundaries of this finite Universe...
Honor...
If honor does not exist, then what is the point of being honorable, doing what people wish you to do. If you do not feel like it and yet continue to behave "honorably" just to please the masses, isn't that hipocrisy?
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 26, 2001 03:28 PM |
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LOL Zedrin
Ever heard of quantum mechanic, or for that matter Chaos theory. Alot of people would say that in a material universe its a miracle there is order at all.
Guess the same could be said about my life right now, so hope u dont take offence ;P
But we still have music, that definetly order things in a brand new way, or is it an old way. Middle Earth is created by song, guess Tolkien has a point there
Defreni
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 26, 2001 03:42 PM |
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None taken.
It may be a miracle, but still it is the only kind of existence we know of...
We cannot truly define what Chaos is but absence of Order. Practically we do not have an Example of Real Chaos.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 26, 2001 09:04 PM |
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You can all talk till the cows come home about what honour means i dont think it will achieve anything! (Damn the cows have all been rounded up shot in the head and tossed on a pyre and then burned into ash.............damn then i guess you can all talk till your keyboards break then. Poor poor cows *sob* poor little phoenix......*sob* i think i have something in my eye i have to go.......*sob*)
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