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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2001 01:23 PM |
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Ichon a aok player eh? I gave up on that after a few months playing it not enough competition at the time  Nah but i really think ror is better, faster, more varied game with some superb players.
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 13, 2001 03:53 PM |
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Quote:
Zedrin I was sad to hear that you “don’t care anymore”. What a dreadful place to be in my opinion. It would also help explain your attraction to hate as an experience that made you feel alive. Fortunately there are many other emotions that can make you feel just as alive and contribute to the common good (love, service, thankfulness, empathy, etc.)
It seems to be true in your case it would be hypocritical for you to regret your hate. This is most likely due to a total absence of empathy. I have worked with many people in your situation and it saddens me as it seems to rob people of their humanity. While empathy is usually nurtured or not in early childhood I would encourage you to rage against your apparent lack of empathy as life can be full of meaning if we seek it. Well enough psychoanalyzing
You also are quite correct in your findings that your belief “always expect the worst” has always come true. It is a self fulfilling prophecy that is usually designed to defend ourselves from painful emotions in the past and those that will come in the future. Wait I thought I said I would stop anaylizing
Well you are an honest person at the very least and that I truly respect.
BTW you seem to believe yourself to be “coldly logical”…but hate of others is not very logical…particualrly in the personal example you described previously.
After reading all the latest posts, not just dargon's, i couldn't help but laugh, and laugh, and laugh.
Shae, i do know what true hate is. I have felt it many a time and it has taken control.
I prefer to have control over my own actions, at least some form of control. I prefer to know that what i do i will not regret later because i was harsh in my judgement, or because i was rulled by emotions, alcohol or drugs. I prefer to be perfectly aware of what i am doig, i prefer to be responsible for my own actions. What i said about being hypocritical about regrets was appliable only in my case, since i feel none.
When i said that i am "coldly logical", this was appliable only to the present reality. In the past i was the oposite.
And i do not lack empathy. I knew exactly how that person would feel being ostracized by all others. I knew how isolated he would feel. But once i set a goal, i plan to achieve it.
I'm perfectly and painfully aware of my defects, of the dents in my armor. I am defensive, uncaring and extremely proud. I am reluctant to accept advice. I am reluctant to give up. Although i know when i am defeated i try to cause as much damage as i can to the oponnent, sacrificing possible allies if possible. But as i said once...to the fellow i ostracized, i will not change my defects, simply because i enjoy them. My existence would become dull (my point of view) and tired. I'm feeling tired, and have elt so for quite some time.
Although i had some suicidal tendencies, i am too proud for such an easy way out.
About my honesty... why should i lie? I am more than capable to do so, but i have no need of it. Chances are that what i said here will never matter. Chances are that you will never meet me. Even if you do, my outside personality can shift faster than you can imagine, a skill i found most useful.
Hate didn't provide an adrenaline surge, it provided an incentive, a way out of the loop that i had entered. it provided me with a way to be creative and more important: active.
Pan, never worry, the chances that your kids become as warped as i am are slim. The only reason that i am like this is because i set a goal: no barriers. I will never achieve it. But i will get closer. My barriers will remain in place, but most of them will be self imposed. Moral barriers have decayed with time, religious barriers i never had. Almost any barrier that remains is self imposed.
Btw Pluvious, i am not looking for sympathy. Never was. I can't say "never will" since i am liable to change.
Have fun
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted May 13, 2001 06:27 PM |
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dargon
I only added what i did because by stating a definition without any boundaries you can too easily begin to call other people dishonorable for not sharing your beliefs. So what i was thinking of in essence are matters of religion and the like - for while i may believe something strongly based on my own upbringing, there may be another person who was raised in a different manner, and firmly believes that what he/ she is doing is the right thing - so are you adishonorable person for adhering to beliefs that were set into from childhood?
I'm sorry Pluvious, if my feelings seem silly to you - but i am always hesitant to say anything that will generalize or lump all people into one common definition. I was not trying to say what i think honour is within one society, but looking at what the word means in relation to all. To say simply that honour is about following what you believe to be right, in spite of any hardship etc. then am i not saying i believe Hitler to be honourable? I'd just as soon never speak again than to make a statement like that.
To Warlock, i'm not scared of my kids doing that, i'm scared of someone doing that to them. So there.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 13, 2001 06:44 PM |
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:)
hehe Pan
I don't think you have to worry about that. Took me a whole year of preparing the ground before my "coup de grace"(or something like that, hell, french is one thing i failed to learn).
Few people have the necessary self control. But you will probably need to teach your kids some form of self defense. Emotional self defense.
That's only my opinion, from my extremely limited experience in that domain.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted May 14, 2001 07:07 AM |
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Coming full circle
Honor cannot exist in a land where each make up in their own mind what honor is. Ethical realativism (to each their own) gives you nothing. Honor if it is to mean anything must have a moral absolute it is in relation to or it is nothing more than the blowing sands. We have been through this in the past.
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Example. In my tribe the person with the most dead bodies hangin in a meat locker is the most revered and given highest honor possible. Therefore, poisoning people in a supermarket is a worthy and noble effort. Or mangling someones baby while they are present is quite a noble thing too.
"Sick, that has nothing to do with honor!" some might retort, however, it is my standard right? My tribe regards this as magnificient, especially when we feast on our kills. You have no say in the matter. You have nothing more than your opinion by which to judge and mine is just as legitimate as yours, which is even granted by your standard. Mine and the other "kind" people I associate with choose this standard and for us this is honor. "Kind" for us can be whatever I choose too.
_______________________XXXXXXXXXXXX__________________
This line of reasoning gets absurd pretty quick, yet it is somewhat hard to contend with, even impossible without an outside standard and thus the thread in the past lead straight to a discussion about God. This was because we are looking for some authority from outside that might actually dictate what is right and wrong or true and false, etc.
In the end people like to make their own rules cause it is comforting and they stay out of unpleasant arguments when they say, "to each his own." However, people do not live in this world actually obeying this standard of "to each his own." If you think so, come and enjoy hanging in my meat locker and make sure not to punish me since I am just making my own mind up what is to be valued in life.
What thinkest though my respected friends of this thread?
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 14, 2001 07:30 AM |
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Wonderful!
Gotta give up the love for H3 crowd. Never figured to see this here exactly. deth8 has a good point, but it needn't be expressed so vehemently, because you can go in the other direction with that idea. If there is an outside authority, then those who interpret the will of said authority are in the same position as any moral relativist. Of course they claim they aren't- but it amounts to the same. There exists no tribe that wants to hang eveyone in meat lockers, but there are people right now who beleive they know the only right path, and they are on it, everyone else isn't. That thought therefor justifies thinking of people as subhuman and treating them less well than your fanatastic tribe who at least glorifies the human body.
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 14, 2001 07:39 AM |
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"Come hang in my meatlocker"
Quote:
Ethical realativism (to each their own) gives you nothing.
_______________________XXXXXXXXXXXX__________________
Example. In my tribe the person with the most dead bodies hangin in a meat locker is the most revered and given highest honor possible. Therefore, poisoning people in a supermarket is a worthy and noble effort. Or mangling someones baby while they are present is quite a noble thing too.
"Sick, that has nothing to do with honor!" some might retort, however, it is my standard right? _______________________XXXXXXXXXXXX__________________
This line of reasoning gets absurd pretty quick, yet it is somewhat hard to contend with, even impossible without an outside standard and thus the thread in the past lead straight to a discussion about God.
In the end people like to make their own rules cause it is comforting and they stay out of unpleasant arguments when they say, "to each his own." However, people do not live in this world actually obeying this standard of "to each his own."
What thinkest though my respected friends of this thread?
Hehe
In this thread i have yet to express my opinion on what honor actually is... I have argued what it is not, but i have not said what it is.
Why? Because my vision of what honor is would not match anyone else's. We are above all individuals, then human beings part of a society. We each conform to the rules that are set upon us.
But we are individuals. We conform our own standars to the general rules, or bend the rules a bit, else we are quite unable to survive...
People make their own rules, but what power do these rules hold against the rule of the many?
We seek an outside standard because we are not all alike. We are too diferrent to have an absolute concept about life, death, feelings or actions. We try to separate oposing concepts by adding the "Good" or "Evil" label. Truth be told we cannot tell Good from Evil unless both are used in a sentence.
If we look for absolutes we could say that life is worthless. We could call it precious. Different arguments for different needs.
But if we reduce everything to "the many rule", then individualism is lost, then we become nothing more than big ants.
On the subject of honor,i'll quote Shark_Blue0:"Question: what is honor?
Answer: D'know."
Easy answer
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 14, 2001 07:44 AM |
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For Dargon:"Analyze this":)
Change
The night of changes is at hand
And with it comes the light
In burns my skin, it sears my eyes
And takes away my sight.
It matters not, I sense it still
That feeling of ancient times
Beneath the signs of death and life
Between forgotten rhymes.
Beneath the masks that always change
My face remains the same.
Sometimes lost and sometimes found,
All a part of this Game.
And if the shadows dare approach,
If they engulf my might
I’ll banish them within my soul
And then embrace the night.
Not the best i ever did, not the worst. Matters little though.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted May 14, 2001 07:46 AM |
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definitions and terminology
Zedrin,
I think you have me vascilating on whether you are talking about hate or not. Do you consider cruelty the same thing as hate?
Oh, these definitions are fun things aren't they?
Oh, ya....in my last post, I was thinking....I imagine Zedrin will say we do exactly just that, "have nothing more than ethical relativsim in the world." Then we can get on with the circle to arguments of God's existence again, which seems to be a real crux of the issue in terms of a life standard maybe?
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 14, 2001 07:55 AM |
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Definitions
Hell no! Hate is a bit more subtle than cruelty. On the other hand, the perfect tool for hate is cruelty. I find it to be a bit heavy on the wasted energy.
Hatred is powerless without the tools to implement it. It becomes a useless feeling that in time consumes the individual.
Far better is to hate something you can actually get at. Gives you an ocupation at least.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted May 14, 2001 08:35 AM |
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Close this thread.
It has become nothing more than a place for Zedrin to get attention by saying over the top things and try to sound like he is as heartless as Hitler.
Rather he is or not is not my concern.
We get enough stupid talk on the zone with Killa Bee, Wignifty, etc about how cold blooded they are.
If a sociopathic defect brought on by lack of affection during childhood (in most cases) is worth our responses then the entire message board is worse for it.
Zedrin, "If you don't get help at charter, get help somewhere."
-Mocara
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 14, 2001 08:53 AM |
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Mocara, are you disturbed by what i say or because i say it?
I'm not exactly like Killa Bee. I don't go around provoking people.
You said before about singleling out another individual for hate... Would you prefer someone that hates whole groups? Perhaps a racist? Anti-Christian?
The whole argument about hate came about when i was talking to Dargon about the equality of feelings. What makes love different than hate? Is it not "just" a feeling, just an emotion?
Are your visions of love and hate but preconceived ideas?
What makes destruction better than creation? Is there a difference between them? You said you are an advocate of relativism... Then Everything is relative. What i did to that person is relative. Your reaction is relative...
I've met many americans in person. I must say i was apalled by most of them. They had an incredible baggage of preconceived ideas they were lugging around. Many of them left Romania enlightened.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted May 14, 2001 08:59 AM |
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Closed this thread?
Well ok. I hope too many people don't get upset. Time for a new thread. I do think we have exhauted this one.
I was seriously going to close this just now. However, I do not see any point on second thought. I think if nobody posts it will basically be closed.
Who knows what things could evolve into. For example check out this thread on another board.This thing is huge.
I see no reason for threads not to evolve. For better or worse, still they should be allowed to continue if people wish. No?
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted May 14, 2001 09:05 AM |
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Edited By: deth8 on 14 May 2001 03:06
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anti up
I forgot that thread costs money to post on so if anyone gets interested then pay up to speak your mind there.
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 14, 2001 09:06 AM |
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Finally!
I was hoping this thread would get closed a long time ago. Was getting bored with it, anticipating most replies.
Gl all
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 14, 2001 10:29 AM |
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Quote:
I mean really... what is Honor? Honor this Honor that all day long. What is it actually? Mercy towards a weaker oponnent? Righteously smiting evil? And for that matter what is Evil, or Good?
Chances are that each will understand and accept a bit, a piece of the puzzle or definition.
That was my first post here, that has initiated an avalanche...
Has anyone a better idea what honor is. Has anyone gained insight knowledge in the mysterious workings of honor?
I don't think so. Which actually expresses an aspect of human nature... mistrust.
I may be wrong, I may be right, but the truth is that it matters little... We can only change ourselves, not others, not unless they want and accept to be changed.
We stick to our own and defend it valiantly, but we fall short of the glory. We change others only to the same extent that they change us. Experiences change us, not people. We evolve vertically for a while, then mutate horizontally.
A simple question comes to mind from a game i played some time ago..."What can change the nature of a man?"
This thread has come full circle, a ragged circle. It is nice from time to time to see how people think.
Have fun
____________
"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 14, 2001 11:11 AM |
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Agreement?
Well, I'm glad this thread wasn't closed before I could have my say. As far as what Zedrin is saying, mostly it's true. Human nature isn't the best thing around- individually it's possible to overcome perhaps, but that is why we have term for, and a myth about saints. How many of you are saints? Right, I thought so.
Given that, and the human proclivity to want what we don't have, I would say that thieves and murders are the most honorable people. No one wants to hear that because people like to live in ignorance. Thieves and murders have a very simple system of honor, and that is why they can stick to it better than the rest of us. They take what they want or think they can get away with taking, and kill when someone gets in their way. The largest block of society on the other hand makes elaborate moral justifications for doing almost exactly the same thing. Perhaps we are nicer about it, and it is not as noticeable when a whole society does it rather than the individual thief or murder, but only when judging from within our own society. (where did all those lost civilizations go? Most frequently eliminated by another less honorable civilization-history is full of examples; Rome vs the Huns, China vs Mongols, US vs native Americans, US vs USSR...etc)People who have never traveled have a very difficult time learning this. I'm thankful I've been all over Europe and most of the Americas. Never to Romania though I did have a Romanian girlfriend for awhile- anyway, any of the eastern bloc countries are a very good lesson in such things. They had the same potential as the rest of Europe, yet because of a system imposed on their society lag far behind now.
How can you relate this to honor you ask? It's simple- they were more honorable. Yes, more kin to thieves and murders, but at the same time for all their ruthlessness against individuals in their society, they couldn't match the west and the US in how ruthless we were overall. Honor is predictable essentially being a system were you accomadate a sense of your own virtue and don't deviate from it. Those less honorable are free to take whatever actions necessary to win. Honorable people have much more limited options and so lose out in the long run. The average life expectany of a murderer is not very high. Same with thieves. The only lesson we humans have ever learned as a race is that their is strength in numbers. So when we decieve ourselves as a society, it's almost impossible to counter. Only if you are born outside of that society, or perhaps if you are a real revolutionary. Even in how we deterime what is right or wrong...
Afterall, at one time the majority of people believed in Animalism or that left handed people were evil- on and on, how many superstitions are there? Impossible to number, and if you asked each of those people why they believed such childish fantasies, their answer's would be nearly like ours today. How little has changed...
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 14, 2001 11:30 AM |
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Hehe.
Someone who shares a part of my point of view.
Exactly, the simpler things get the more powerful they become. Complexity easily pales in front of simplicity. Why? because the more complex things get, the more things can go wrong.
Many other reasons though.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 14, 2001 11:43 AM |
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Science even says so!(if you believe science)
There are actually mathematical formulas proving that about complexity. However, I think there is something undiscovered in this area. There are too many complex systems thriving today for that to be true altogether. I also tend to think US is the most ruthless society around today, the people are nice individually but generally naive, and so are easily manipulated. People in US think it's no big deal for the weak to suffer. I mean, if you aren't working, that's your fault. What? Drug addication, please- go die in jail without disrupting the rest of us. Hmm...work 50 hours a week? Ok, I shouldn't complain since that's how you get ahead. 8 years old and shot someone? Death penalty! I am not saying US is worse than anyone else around, I am just saying that more suffer the consequences of our ruthlessness because of how powerful we are. It's the natural order of nations. History- apparently no one pays attention to it. I like living in the US actually. It's continusouly amusing to live with people who can't see themselves for what they really are. Since it's no better anywhere else, I like being the with the ones who can throw their weight around with impunity.
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 14, 2001 01:37 PM |
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Well then Ichon bet you cant wait till "son of starwars" kicks in so then you can hold even more power and push even more smaller countrys around. Oh the fun America will have!
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This thread is pages long: 
