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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 14, 2001 07:24 PM |
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Nay, no creator
Not necessarily a creator. Certainly not something with a defined will, or opinions or consciousness. Not an inteligence, but perhaps a Reality, an Existence.
We are limited, so there should be something completely oposite to us in the Universe or outside of it, something with no boundaries. But if it has no boundaries then we are it, a part of it. Everything is a part of it, but limited by form. We are Aspects of this limitless Reality, bound by matter...
That is if something like that exists...
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted April 15, 2001 08:25 AM |
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No Deth,
I'm advocating putting a 4 year old child in the drivers seat and saying "Hey, see that guy? It's Deth8, run over him!"
But seriously it just goes to prove my point about things being relative. Humans have now evolved to the point where we can compete and noone gets physically hurt. That is the difference between my no mercy example and the idea of the car and the kid.
If I am playing sports or games I owe my opponent to give my best game. If I'm in a fist fight with someone this attitude will cause me to go to prison for murder.
So no I am not advocating no mercy in life or death situations unless the person you are dealing with understands nothing else. If someone breaks into your home then yes I suggest no mercy. But in relationships mercy is everything. In competition we suspend mercy in a productive format. It is when people step over the line and forget it is not real life that sport becomes ugly.
Play without mercy but in real life mercy is needed.
-Mocara
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dargon
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2001 11:02 AM |
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Quote:
LOL, you all know deep down what honour really is. It's about being fair and not automatically expecting the same fairness in return. For example, I played a game where my opponent was on the ropes after being pounded by the computer. I told him that if the computer defeated him, I would not report a win (it isn't a win in my opinion). He survived, barely, and a week or two later, I got smashed by the computer. I lost my main hero, my castle, everything. Did I whinge? No. I did the honourable thing and posted my loss. Perhaps the other player did not reciprocate my own intentions, but I would not pressure a player to 'follow my lead'. I make my own decisions about honour, and I trust them, yet I do so with the knowledge that my own generosity may not be returned. That does not mean that the opponent lacks honour, it merely means that I know that I have done the right thing. His victory was a sour one, my loss, one of the sweetest I have tasted. *smile*
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dargon
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2001 11:24 AM |
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Ok that last post was my ignorance on how this works
Mocara I like your clarification about Mercy.
In games show no mercy...but in life none of us can grow or exist without mercy
Regarding relativism though....relativism does not exist...we all live by a standard of morality whether we admit it or not...there is always a standard to which we are appealing or all arguments would be in vain....let alone the purpose of our existance! If relativism truely existed then all of our life would be not only in shambles but in vain...what use do we have? What are we giving to the world? Why teach anyone? Why rear and love or children? hmmmm sounds more like a philosophical discussion then a heroes topic...oh well I love philosophy Well I may have misunderstood your point...but I felt like making my own
Rock on
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 15, 2001 04:40 PM |
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"Why rear and love or children? "
You should definetely come to Romania to watch the 5 o'clock news Abandoned or murdered babies are the status quo of the day usually.
I cannot condemn this, seeing the material "bounty" by which the parents are blessed.
Love is a strange thing. A father beating his child half to death will use love as an excuse. Does that mean that he doesn't love his child? No. Does that make his form of love wrong? No. We cannot judge him in such subjective matters, out of fear of being judged ourselves...
Doesn't that make everything relative?
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted April 16, 2001 04:12 AM |
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e=mc2 or whatever
Of course relativity exist.
How would I know was happy without what I call sadness to contrast it?
What does white on white look like?
Who knows? We need another color to contrast it.
Everything is relative to something else.
-Mocara
Except for like 3rd cousins. C'mon man I swear I didn't know she was my cousin!! :-)
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Greiger
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 17, 2001 03:23 AM |
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:)
I know what white on white looks like. It looks white
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Gobs0 in Zone
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maxx_nazi
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 17, 2001 01:21 PM |
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hmm...
I think that above all , honor means no cheatin` in gameplay.And I saw on the forum mean dirty language...Honor can mean respectin` a lady.Anyway wo am i to teach you the meanin` of honor...You probably know better......
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 18, 2001 03:47 PM |
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Respecting a lady!
Hey, I really like that one! As a girl playing Heroes, I often get treated with skepticism by male players who think that I'm either crazy or a crap player. The latter I can attest to, lol, but some of the disrespectful things that I've had spoken to me are the furthest thing from honour that I care to mention. Hey, I like having fun  as much as the next person, but there is a limit. For those people who cross it, well, I wouldn't give you a TOH game if my life depended on it. And while we're at it, why do some losers leave the Zone without saying a thank-you or nice game? To lose and not be gracious about it is to cast dishonour upon me, because it makes me feel as if the other player was somehow not satisfied with the game and that can sometimes rob me of that warm fuzzy feeling I get when I win! And what is it with those guys that keep asking me strange stuff?
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3lionshield
Hired Hero
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posted April 18, 2001 07:33 PM |
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hon·or [ónnr ] noun (plural hon·ors)
1. personal integrity: strong moral character or strength, and adherence to ethical principles It's a matter of honor.
2. respect: great respect and admiration
3. dignity or distinction: personal dignity that sometimes leads to recognition and glory Although defeated, he accepted the loss with honor
4. reputation: somebody's good name or good reputation My honor is at stake.
5. woman's reputation: a woman's virginity or reputation for chastity (dated)
6. source of pride: somebody or something that brings respect or glory and is a source of pride to somebody or something else Your achievements are an honor to your parents and school.
7. mark of distinction: something such as a gift, award, or gesture that signifies high achievement or respect
8. great privilege: a special privilege that is cherished, for example, an opportunity to be introduced to somebody admired or respected or an opportunity to serve a worthy cause It is indeed an honor to have you here today.
9. men's code of integrity: a code of integrity in some societies, for example, in feudal Europe and medieval Japan, that men upheld by force of arms
10. dignity of high position: a certain high degree of dignity with which high positions, for example, the Presidency, are regarded by those elected to them and by the people they serve actions detrimental to the honor of his office
11. GOLF right to tee off first: the right to drive off first from the tee in golf
plural noun
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Maxym
Known Hero
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posted April 18, 2001 08:59 PM |
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lol
good one 3lion
bringing discussion back to earth from the philosophical heights, not that I mind that. this is a really cool thread.
And I have to agree with Shae, both sore losers and bragging winners are not very honorable, but I would rather face 10 boasters then 1 sore loser. I make a point to congratulate and thank my opponent win or loss. And it really bugs me if the game ends in: "I lost" and "the player has left the game" or something like that.
Doh! I know you lost, i knew it for last 5 hours but we kept on playing and I feel even a good bye would be nice if you can't bring yourself to say "gg" 
ahh....
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 19, 2001 12:12 PM |
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Since we established that everything is relative... let's try something else...
If a player really feels sore about his loss then he isn't allowed to complain? Or if one really feels proud of his win, can't he brag?
Can we demand people to act a certain way just because we are disturbed by it? We can of course weed some of them out by making certain rules at the beginning of the game, but some will slip through.
If we complain about their complaining or bragging, doesn't that make us their opposite? Sore losers if they brag and braggarts(i think this is it, no time to check) if they lose?
(Hell, i'm asking, i don't know.)
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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Maxym
Known Hero
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posted April 19, 2001 05:59 PM |
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Of course anyone has a right to be a sore about his/her loss or brag about a win. But not without consequences and those are: being a Sore Loser and Braggart
And I just don't consider Sore Losers honorable. I don't mind braggarts at all. And I don't think anything should be done about either of them in rules sense. I just won't look for those people when I look for my next game.
I guess we can talk about it here or with those people who's behaviour rubs us the wrong way. I know i have changed some people's approach through these conversations, and I am sure the message boards are also contributing to a better playing environment.
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 19, 2001 10:51 PM |
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hmm you want to know about honour play Shogun its full of the stuff!
Great game too
"Know yourself and your enemy and you will never be defeated in 100 battles" - SUN TZU
Its amazing hundreds of years later and he gives great advice for heroes. What a clever cookie!
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 20, 2001 03:14 AM |
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Philosohy :)
Well lets get back to the philosophy
I just skimmed the thread but still feel I can bring something constructive
Relativism is highly praised these days, specially since Einstein 
But in my humble opinion, no man can live without some form off idealism (as opposed to relativism). And certainly every society would crumble if all who lived in it where abiding to relativism.
I will always have the right to judge if something is right or wrong, and in that process being judged myself. But if people get to scared to use that right, well where worse off than I care to think ( By this, i dont mean in a physical way, like some antiabortionist in a country far away, I heard about in the news, who kill the people who disagrees with them)
My point is that there are intrinsically right and wrong actions, in life aswell as in a forum like TOH.
The problem with this, is that you have to be omnipotent to see all the consequences of ur actions, so nobody will in a given situation be able to tell what the morally right action is.
But this shouldnt keep us from trying, sometimes we can in hindsight see that what we thought was right is wrong and vice versa, then we can only learn from that.
If u instead of right and wrong puts in honor and dishonor, in the above, u will pretty much see my opinion about Honor in TOH
But interesting thread.
Defreni
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 20, 2001 03:32 AM |
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some good things going here....ooops....good? Well, whatever...it is something, no?
Hmm... so Zedrin you will say there is no right nor wrong nothing at all by which to base anything and chaos reigns eh? It is interesting that even with the true foundation of e equaling mc2 that we still have a standard somewhere by which to make all things relative so that we can live more than schozophrenic lives. Relativism somewhat embrased is surely a nice way for a dishonest man to justify anything he chooses most definately and I think that is it's biggest lure.....me being a vile creature myself. :Þ
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 20, 2001 03:33 AM |
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pretty good def
Excellent one there btw 3Lion
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted April 20, 2001 04:12 AM |
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Sun Tzu
Nice quote Arachnid. Nice to see I am not the only one who appreciates Sun Tzu here.
Well Rychenroller is a big fan too of course =)
-Mocara
"Honor is bashing in your opponents head then being nice enough to help him pick up their brains." - Mocara
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dargon
Famous Hero
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posted April 20, 2001 04:29 AM |
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Mocara and Zedrin
Well first to Mocara....I must of been really unclear or you really misunderstood (probably the latter since I rarely make mistakes..haha). I was not speaking of relativity as it relates to science, but instead was referring to moral relativity...that is what truly doesn't exist. If there was no standard to which we were all appealing to then all discussion, debate, and argument would be an exercise in futility! This whole topic we are discussing would be related to nothing more then one stating their preferences or taste...but by the very passion to which people make their various arguments proves that most are appealing to some standard and trying to convince others towards the same standard.
Mocara your reference to colors etc...that is not relativism to me but discrimination...I don't know seems like we may be discussing something very different as the analogy seemed to be related to differentiating two things from each other...but to use your example of colors...most of us agree that red is red and red is not black...thus there again we are stating that there is a standard of redness that we ascribe to. Also stay away from my cousins
To Zedrin...well I was disturbed by your comments...of course a father who beats their child half to death is not being loving...there is nothing difficult about that to me...the act of beating someone is an act of aggression and possibly hate but most definitely not love. When you say you cannot condemn...well that also is frightening to me as we have to condemn acts of injustice or else we are nothing more then brute animals with a meaningless existence.
Well at least your opinion was very consistent in moral relativism...I have met very few true moral relativist as most say they ascribe to relativism but when push comes to shove they admit that certain things are right and others wrong. I don't know I hope I didn't misunderstand your point. But most of all I salute you in the boldness of your opinion despite how strongly I may disagree with it.
Anyway good debate and I appreciate the exchange of ideas!…even though my ideas are closer to the idea/standard of right…hehehe
PS Defreni point about moral relativism leading to societal destruction and deth8’s point that it leads to chaos is very on the money in my never so humble opinion
PSS Maybe I should become a moral relativist..then all my heroes losses could really become wins
Rock on
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Columbus
Hired Hero
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posted April 20, 2001 02:12 PM |
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As regards Honour I like that last definition from the dictionary - the right to go first in golf. Thanks, 3lion (btw r u an English football fan?)
As regards hitting kids the issue is utterly horrible. I used to work in a social services department here in London and the issues are never black and white. You have a responsible parent, very caring 99% of the time, strict and making sure that the kid gets a good education. The state-run social services are dreadful and most of the kids end up on drugs/in prison. The parent hits the kid. Often. Every month or so. Now maybe the parent is really sorry afterwards, maybe abused as a kid themselves. How should the situation be dealt with. Does the kid need institutionalising? Does the parent? There are very few genuine villains in these cases - usually just a whole lot of victims. I hope no one reading this ever has to go through that sort of heartache in their families
I think maybe what Zedrin meant above when he said he did not condemn the people who abandoned their children was that they are faced with such hard choices because of their poverty that it is hard to clearly state what line you would take yourself in those circumstances. (ie maybe they're so poor that maybe their other kids are likely to die of starvation)
Coming back to the thread though I suppose the word "Honour" is used to make sure that the people playing in TOH are polite, don't cheat and don't fail to report games. I think it's a well-chosen word and I behave a bit better in TOH than I would in, for example, DiabloII online
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This thread is pages long: 
