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| Thread: The Holocaust and WWII |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · NEXT» |
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EliteKill
Promising
The Starless
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posted April 16, 2007 05:42 AM |
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The Holocaust and WWII
Well, here I go.
Today is the National Israeli Holocaust Memorial Day and I had an idea to post this thread. This is to basically discuss what was happening back than and how it is affecting us now. I don't have much to write, but please no jokes, this topic is very serious.
Hopw we have a goo discussion.
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Colonel_here
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posted April 16, 2007 06:02 AM |
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It was a shameful period of history. It was the event that forced many nations reconsider their ideas on discrimination.
Too bad that we still have whole bunch of idiots running around and worshiping Hitler.
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"Only a fool fights a battle he knows he can not win" - Ghengiz Khan
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Aculias
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posted April 16, 2007 07:07 AM |
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Yes there are people who consider themselves Naxis even still.
I'll say it straight up.
The times of power & Hitler had the power & he proved it.
The Germans listened & Hitler hated who he became.
He hated who he was & hated the others who was like him.
He hated the Jewish people & he murdered many.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 16, 2007 09:24 AM |
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Edited by angelito at 16:10, 04 May 2009.
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Too many indeed...
We must always remember images like the one below and NEVER let happen again...
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Doomforge
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posted April 16, 2007 10:43 AM |
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Poles haeve been the ones that suffered the holocaust the most (taking the Jewish population into consideration, and it was quite huge). There was a way to prevent it, or at least minimize the effect; I guess that most of you doesn't know that Hitler proposed alliance to Poland shortly before the war; He wanted to destroy Russia, not Poland. Our leaders declined the offer; While morally correct, it brought us the horrible war that killed 10 million of our people and totally destroyed the resiliently expanding industry.
What would happen if Poland decided to form the alliance?
First of all, many of our descendants would survive the war, wouldn't be taken to concentration camps or butchered on the streets like dogs. Hitler would use Poland as a base for his forces, and attack russia directly, which would probably bring the same scenario as in 1944; they would just freeze there and the commies would strike back. In other words, it would shorten the war, spare many people's life, and prevent the horror of holocaust, for the cost of being called nazi allies; but, what's better, shameful history or milions of butchered innocents?
Good question. I'd personally vote the first one. Most of the nazi followers are respected as democratic, good countries nowadays; Germany itself is considered an ok country. Poland heroism was morally admirable, but it brought many bad events to the world.
Finally, the question of our country fighting the much stronger opponent comes up; why? Czech republic surrendered immediately, which saved many of their citizens, and the country aswell; does anyone call them cowards nowadays? No, of course not, and because they did that, they are also much richier than Poland, and suffer less problems in many industry branches. Poles fought an excellent nazi army with tiny, badly armed force, with terrible command and communication; it quickly turned to guerilla warfare. A wise commander knows when to surrender, and in my opinion, it would be the best way.
The uprisings also come in mind; Poles threat them as an act of supreme heroism. There are literally legends about courage of the citizens fighting in the besieged Warsaw; Yes, we like to recall our history and admire it. But for many people, it was a suicide, suicide completely unnecessary, given that soviet forces were close, ready to "liberate" the Warsaw from the hands of nazis. The uprising was meant to drive back the nazis, create an artificial goverment and greet the Soviets within the liberated city; this way, they could not take it captive, for it was liberated already. The plan obviously failed; Soviets decided not to help the citizens, which resulted in hundreds of death, and also, death of the beautiful city; 80% of its buildings have been destroyed as a penalty for making an uprising. Most of the youth died, too.
There are many stories about the holocaust; Some of the poeple survived the camps, and returned home shortly after the war. Fortunately, my grand-parents avoided the departure to either soviet or nazi camps. We also have the most dreaded camp on our territory, auschwitz; What's horrible is that many of foreign journalists and many of the Jews refer to it as the "Polish camp" - it creates a feeling that we've created this camp and used it to murder Jews, a horrible lie that's unfortunately widely spread around the word. If you've ever heard such nonsense, do not believe it.
I'm not saying anti-semitism doesn't exist in Poland, it does; There has also been an accident in a village Jedwabne, where polish farmers murdered many jews, but to call the camps 'polish' is just plain wrong.
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Binabik
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posted April 16, 2007 10:56 AM |
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I'm not Jewish or Polish. People from around the world suffered during WW2. It was an ugly war throughout Europe, in Africa, in the Pacific, in Asia, and even in N America. It's not a contest about who suffered the most. It's a day of memorial to the Jews who suffered. And they suffered greatly.
Let it never happen again.
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baklava
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posted April 16, 2007 11:04 AM |
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What would happen if Poland decided to form the alliance?
First of all, many of our descendants would survive the war, wouldn't be taken to concentration camps or butchered on the streets like dogs. Hitler would use Poland as a base for his forces, and attack russia directly, which would probably bring the same scenario as in 1944; they would just freeze there and the commies would strike back. In other words, it would shorten the war, spare many people's life
And when the Soviets would strike back (and they would), what do you think would happen when they conquered Poland? You yourself know what happened to your nation after the "liberation", under the communists. Now just think how the Soviets would treat you if you were Nazi allies too. They would probably annex Poland and destroy all your hopes of freedom of any sort.
There is a reason everything happens. The history of my country (Yugoslavia then) was extremely similar too. Hitler offered it alliance (he had no wish to rule the Balkans, only to subdue them) and our government accepted. Then Serbian people went out to the streets and made huge protests against Nazis. A coup d'etat happened and Yugoslavia, under a new government, refused partnership with the Nazis.
That resulted in the conquest of Yugoslavia, creation of a fascist state of Croatia (under the infamous Ustasha regime; butchering and torturing hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Gypsies and other non-Croats) and complete hell.
However all that had a point in history. If that didn't happen, perhaps something even worse would. If all weaker countries had sworn allegiance to Hitler, he would still slay millions of people and perhaps he'd even win the war. Hence they resisted; like Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece, France and others.
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What's horrible is that many of foreign journalists and many of the Jews refer to it as the "Polish camp" - it creates a feeling that we've created this camp and used it to murder Jews
I've never heard of it being referred to as the Polish camp... I mean, just look at its name for the beginning...
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I'm not saying anti-semitism doesn't exist in Poland, it does
It exists everywhere. Like racism or chauvinism or homophobia. We can just hope that people will one day be able to use the common sense to stop the hatred.
What distrubs me is that everyone just blames Hitler as the sole person responsible for the war. I mean, one person can't kill dozens of millions of people just like that. He had a lot of support and most of his strongest supporters avoided justice, like dr Mengele and people like him.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Doomforge
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posted April 16, 2007 11:07 AM |
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There was a few issues about Israeli newspapers calling it polish camp.. and many more. It was called "auschwitz" by germans, "oświęcim" by Poles, so the name has nothing to do with it.
Russians would do the same, yes; Poland would fall into commie Terror, just like it did after the war, but at least there would be Germany part in the war anymore.
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Geny
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posted April 16, 2007 11:09 AM |
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Edited by Geny at 11:21, 16 Apr 2007.
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Poles haeve been the ones that suffered the holocaust the most (taking the Jewish population into consideration, and it was quite huge). There was a way to prevent it, or at least minimize the effect; I guess that most of you doesn't know that Hitler proposed alliance to Poland shortly before the war; He wanted to destroy Russia, not Poland. Our leaders declined the offer; While morally correct, it brought us the horrible war that killed 10 million of our people and totally destroyed the resiliently expanding industry.
What would happen if Poland decided to form the alliance?
First of all, many of our descendants would survive the war, wouldn't be taken to concentration camps or butchered on the streets like dogs. Hitler would use Poland as a base for his forces, and attack russia directly, which would probably bring the same scenario as in 1944; they would just freeze there and the commies would strike back. In other words, it would shorten the war, spare many people's life, and prevent the horror of holocaust, for the cost of being called nazi allies; but, what's better, shameful history or milions of butchered innocents?
You seriously believe that, don't you? Let me put your mind at ease - Hitler didn't spare ONE Jew on the nazi territory. Everyone he could find were send to labor camps and later death camps. You really believe that Hitler would stay true to this "alliance"? He signed a peace treaty with Poland only to appease the stronger nations of the world. Before the war began Germany signed the Ribbentrop-Molotov (if I'm not mistaken) treaty in which Germany and USSR divided Poland into 2 parts that each one of them would conquer once the war began.
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Finally, the question of our country fighting the much stronger opponent comes up; why? Czech republic surrendered immediately, which saved many of their citizens, and the country aswell; does anyone call them cowards nowadays? No, of course not, and because they did that, they are also much richier than Poland, and suffer less problems in many industry branches.
True, the Czechs surrendered and saved a lot of lives, they surrendered because the European countries abandonded them and the Czechs knew the cannot win alone. However, if they would not surrender the war would began earlier and maybe the Germans wouldn't be so strong in that war. Who knows how strong the Germans would get before the actual war began if the Poles would have surrendered like the Czechs did.
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There are many stories about the holocaust; Some of the poeple survived the camps, and returned home shortly after the war. Fortunately, my grand-parents avoided the departure to either soviet or nazi camps. We also have the most dreaded camp on our territory, auschwitz; What's horrible is that many of foreign journalists and many of the Jews refer to it as the "Polish camp" - it creates a feeling that we've created this camp and used it to murder Jews, a horrible lie that's unfortunately widely spread around the word. If you've ever heard such nonsense, do not believe it.
As an Israeli Jew who's been taught a lot about Holocaust I can tell you - nobody here says the Poles built and controlled the death camps. There are stories about Poles who gave the nazis information about the whereabouts of Jews, and the polish underground who sometimes refused to work with the Jews, but nobody accuses Poles for creating Auschwitz.
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Doomforge
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posted April 16, 2007 11:14 AM |
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I'm really glad to here it; Once on the forums (not here) I've met an isreali guy who, seeing I'm from poland, started to write something about "polish nazi camps". Wtf? I couldn't believe my eyes.
Also, there was the newspaper accident; not one, to be honest. I'm surprised you haven't heard about that. 
It was Ribbentrop, btw. And yes, I knew he cared little for the signs, but he was obsessed by destroying commies at that time. With the "Poland problem", things changed a bit. I'm sure the holocaust would still occur, but to lesser extent.
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baklava
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posted April 16, 2007 11:14 AM |
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Quote:
Before the war began Germany signed the Rivertov-Molotov (if I'm not mistaken) treaty in which Germany and USSR divided Poland into 2 parts that each one of them would conquer once the war began.
It's Ribbentrop-Molotov... Named after the German and Russian diplomats (German was Joachim von Ribbentrop and Russian was Vyacheslav Molotov).
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 16, 2007 11:22 AM |
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Thanks, damned nazi diplomats with their long names...
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 16, 2007 11:37 AM |
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yea it was bad
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VokialBG
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posted April 16, 2007 11:48 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 12:02, 16 Apr 2007.
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Well, Bulgaria has an interesting WW2 story, We are on the side of Geramany and attack Serbia and Greece... Romania was german ally and Serbia was defeated, so our only chanse was:
To be ally of Hitler or to suffer like Serbia.
Boris idea was: No battles on Bulgarian territory so this is very good plan other word is that the bulgarian army have "War honour" we can't allow to lose a battle.
To 1944 we are with the nazis, but one great work, is proof that the bulgarian are with the germans then they want to save all people in the country:
Bulgaria is the only one country in the world which save jews on it's territory during WW2.
When Hitler want of Boris III to bring the jews from Bulgaria to Poland and Germany Boris just lie that he want first to use the jews for building of bridges and new roads, but actually the jews are called together and lead to save area.
This is one of the... pride things made by bulgarian, also in our constitution is written:
"Vesi rob satapil vednaj na balgarska teritoria e svoboden"
"Every slave, who walk on bulgarian territory become freedom!"
Tzar Boris III is actuallt successful monarch even if we was with the nazis, and even he was poison by the nazis then he help to the jews...
It is pity that to 1944 in Bulgaria are not more then 100 000 jews...
After 1944 when the Tzar is dead the kommunists get the government and we start a war agains Germany and actually we attack Hungary, our generals command british soldiers in the operations and we "set free" Hungaria from the nazis... but we are treat as bad guys in this war and we must pay reparations and still we can't have army bigger then 45 000...
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Hitler offered it alliance (he had no wish to rule the Balkans, only to subdue them)
His wish was Bulgaria to rule the Balkans, Germany the Europe, Japan Asia... we still keep documents 
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baklava
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posted April 16, 2007 12:29 PM |
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but we are treat as bad guys in this war and we must pay reparations and still we can't have army bigger then 45 000...
Well that was because of what you did to Greek and especially Serbian population and civilians... I mean you can't say you were fairies...
Bulgarian tzar perhaps saved Jews, but when it was in his interest, he definitely didn't hesitate to use force on civilians. And about the honour, how honorable is it to attack a country from the back while it battles a ten-times stronger opponent (Germany) on the other front? Not to mention Hungary and Romania who also attacked us at the same time, and Albanian squads sent by Italy to butcher our civilians in Montenegro and Kosovo.
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His wish was Bulgaria to rule the Balkans, Germany the Europe, Japan Asia... we still keep documents
That was shaped after he declared war on Yugoslavia... Besides, Balkans ARE a region that's incredibly hard to rule... Remember what happened to the Turks 
Those were good times, when the entire Balkans were united in liberation...
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you got the blues."
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VokialBG
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posted April 16, 2007 06:58 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 18:59, 16 Apr 2007.
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And about the honour, how honorable is it to attack a country from the back while it battles a ten-times stronger opponent (Germany) on the other front?
Ohhh... and what is to attack country only some years after it's liberation (when there is still no army)? Or to attack the country when all other near countries are in war with it? Like Serbia in the Second Balkan War or like Serbia in the Serbo-bulgarian War?
The honour is that we have only one lost battle during 6 wars, there is no one country in the world with trophy from the bulgarian army, but we have over 300 captured enemy flags only in the period 1987 - 1944.
We are great soldier but poor like diplomats
But this thing are to old The countries here on the Balkans are too close in traditions, people and stuff like this
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EliteKill
Promising
The Starless
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posted April 16, 2007 07:16 PM |
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And about the honour, how honorable is it to attack a country from the back while it battles a ten-times stronger opponent (Germany) on the other front?
Ohhh... and what is to attack country only some years after it's liberation (when there is still no army)? Or to attack the country when all other near countries are in war with it?
Israel's Independence War was started only 1 day after its official indepence vote at the UN Also, have you heard about Yom Kipur's War (Milchemet Yom Kipur)? Israel was attacked on a holiday by 3 different surrounding countries... Many countries have suffered many hard wars, and it won't do any good to compare who had the hardest war. Also, in WWII, no country suffered the most. Every country had its own damages, like Germany that was completely ruined, Japan which suffered 2 Neuclear Bombs, England which suffered the Blitz, and the Jews (not really a country) who suffered more than 10 illion loses. That's right, I know many people think it was 6 million, but that was the number a the holocaust. Many Jews who lived in unconquered countries such as England fought with thier countries armies, where many more Jews died. Just so you know, EVERY country or group of people who has participated in ANY way in the War and holocaust suffered big damage.
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Colonel_here
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posted April 16, 2007 07:37 PM |
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I don't know i Poland would have faired better if it would have allied with Germany. Quite early on Hitler in his directives said that the Slavic population was to be used as forced labour in agriculture and mining industries. He also said that the explicitly that Polish intelligentsia was to be destroyed and all cultural centres too.
The idea was to destroy the intellectual level of the Slavic people so they would not mind being slaves to Germans.
As for Warsaw uprising the problem was not that Soviet troops decided not too help but because they were not informed of Poles intentions and the troops were moved to the parts of the front where the offensive was lagging behind. Also the idea was for the Polish First Army to lead the way of liberation of Warsaw.
Anyway you must give the Soviet Army army its due respect for demining and living most of Krakow intact during its liberation. This was done at a great cost to Soviet Army.
Of course Hitler was not the only one involved in Holocaust, it was his henchmen, the Nazi doctors and some other sick people. And yes a good number of Nazi criminals did escape punishment. Some joined the West German government right after the war. Scientists such as von Braun who took active part in forced labour programs also were snatched up by all the victor nations and were not punished. Others escaped to neutral nations.
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"The job of saving the lives of those who are sinking is the task of those who are sinking" - Ostap Bender
"Only a fool fights a battle he knows he can not win" - Ghengiz Khan
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baklava
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posted April 16, 2007 09:37 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 21:40, 16 Apr 2007.
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Ohhh... and what is to attack country only some years after it's liberation (when there is still no army)?
Well Serbia didn't have an army then either. We were just liberated then too, remember? Besides, I was always against that war. And the king who started it, while we're at it.
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The honour is that we have only one lost battle during 6 wars, there is no one country in the world with trophy from the bulgarian army, but we have over 300 captured enemy flags only in the period 1987 - 1944.
That's skill (and sometimes cunning), not honour
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We are great soldier but poor like diplomats
Tell me about it...
Remember what Serbia did in WW1? I'm not too patriotic or anything but that was admirable... You know, the Serbian infantry, returning from exile, pissed like hell, went two days ahead of the French cavalry that was supposed to go with them  As far as I remember, that one battle you lost was from us, at the Solun front... And the Serbian troops marched all the way to Vienna...
Besides, to say that you didn't lose a lot of battles doesn't really matter since you lost both world wars It doesn't count who wins a battle, but who wins a war.
You know, the beauty of living in the Balkans is to be able to discuss stuff like this with other people on a totally friendly level
"You did this"
"Yeah, but you did that"
"True... We did that though; while you were still doing that"
"But do you remember when we did that and that, and you did that with them?"
What football is to other regions, war is in the Balkans
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Every country had its own damages, like Germany that was completely ruined, Japan which suffered 2 Neuclear Bombs, England which suffered the Blitz, and the Jews (not really a country) who suffered more than 10 illion loses.
You forgot the Soviet Union. It had more than 10 million losses too... The only people who bleeded more than Russians in WW2 are the Jews.
WW2 was total chaos.
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and some other sick people.
It wasn't limited to that. As far as I remember, most German people supported Hitler. It was because of a mixture of propaganda and pure psychology; perfectly done by Gebbels; the German minister of propaganda at the time. I mean, you must admit that was a masterpiece. To convince the people (and not only German, but also Italian and some others) that nationalsocialism is a true course of humanity; and that there are no concentracion camps or anything like that is the most professional propaganda action ever. As much as we all hate Hitler's cronies, they were quite intelligent. Who knows what would've happened if Hitler himself wasn't dumb enough to attack the Russians...
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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VokialBG
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posted April 16, 2007 09:49 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 21:51, 16 Apr 2007.
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Tell me about it...
Remember what Serbia did in WW1? I'm not too patriotic or anything but that was admirable... You know, the Serbian infantry, returning from exile, pissed like hell, went two days ahead of the French cavalry that was supposed to go with them As far as I remember, that one battle you lost was from us, at the Solun front... And the Serbian troops marched all the way to Vienna...
Besides, to say that you didn't lose a lot of battles doesn't really matter since you lost both world wars It doesn't count who wins a battle, but who wins a war.
You know, the beauty of living in the Balkans is to be able to discuss stuff like this with other people on a totally friendly level
True the one lost battle is one of ours battles with Serbia.
And yes it's just the same all the time here... thousand of wars ware here on the Balkans... one attack on, other the first one the first attack fourth, the fourth the third and after this mess all the counted up in union against the turks And after all the battles the Balkans countries are still kind of brothers Yeap all Balkan guys are crazy Yes we are The interesting point is that we all don't like the turks (well it's normal...)
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