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| Thread: The Holocaust and WWII |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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baklava
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posted April 16, 2007 09:56 PM |
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Well the Turks today aren't bad (I even went for a vacation in Turkey 3 times), though I can't forgive them 3 things:
1) The destruction of Byzantium
2) The enslavement of the people in the Balkans (poor guys would be better off if they didn't conquer the Balkans in the first place; it brought them only ruin in the long run  )
3) The Armenian genocide in WW1. I started adoring Armenian people when I started listening to SOAD 
Besides, how come you don't like Turks when you were allied with them in WW1?
(own3d lol  )
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Geny
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posted April 16, 2007 10:11 PM |
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ahem... aren't we getting a bit off topic here? (and when I say we I off course mean you)
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angelito
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posted April 16, 2007 10:30 PM |
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I think it is very interesing to think a generation has the "right" to forgive or the "right" to hate another nation for what they did in former times.
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Geny
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posted April 16, 2007 10:41 PM |
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I don't think anyone has of that "right" especially not a whole nation, but humans are humans and sometimes it's not a matter of "rights", just feelings.
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Colonel_here
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posted April 16, 2007 10:52 PM |
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Every country had its own damages, like Germany that was completely ruined, Japan which suffered 2 Neuclear Bombs, England which suffered the Blitz, and the Jews (not really a country) who suffered more than 10 illion loses.
You forgot the Soviet Union. It had more than 10 million losses too... The only people who bleeded more than Russians in WW2 are the Jews.
WW2 was total chaos.
Actually Soviet Union suffered 25 million in deaths. 8.7 Million official military death (that is those that been reported to High Command) loses for regiments that got surrounded and disconnected from front lines are unknown.
11.2 million are the estimates for civilian losses. This includes losses due to partisan warfare, slaughtered civilians and those who died due to hunger during the war.
5 million are attributed to people who died after the war due to war causes (diseases caused by malnutrition during the war, wounds from the war that developed problems later on.
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baklava
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posted April 17, 2007 10:19 AM |
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@Colonel I'm sorry, I thought only about direct civilian losses in the war... I forgot military and aftermath losses. My bad.
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ahem... aren't we getting a bit off topic here? (and when I say we I off course mean you)
Alright dude, geez... We were just talking...
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I think it is very interesing to think a generation has the "right" to forgive or the "right" to hate another nation for what they did in former times.
I don't think anyone said that. We were merely remembering the butchering of dozens of millions of people. And we will continue to do so until the end of time. There is nothing to forgive. There can be no forgiveness for that. But then again, hatred leads us nowhere. What happened cannot be undone. We can just hope new generations will be free of hate and healthier in opinion than their ancestors; and that things like the Holocaust will never happen again.
Besides, the entire WW2 was led because of hatred of most of the German people toward their former WW1 enemies and the restrictions they imposed on them. I don't think you can deny that.
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you got the blues."
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Doomforge
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posted April 17, 2007 12:19 PM |
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If we wanted to hate those nations that hurt our people in the past, Germany would be surely on the top, but it's pointless.. I mean, people that were children during the war had no impact on it, why should we hate them as adults today?
There's nothing wrong in saying that 20s and 30s Germans were idiots and imbeciles in major part, though. At least for me 
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angelito
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posted April 17, 2007 01:50 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:51, 17 Apr 2007.
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hmmm...
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I don't think anyone said that.
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...though I can't forgive them 3 things
Maybe I misinterpreted this?
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We were merely remembering the butchering of dozens of millions of people. And we will continue to do so until the end of time. There is nothing to forgive. There can be no forgiveness for that.
The problem is your phrase "...the turks". Same as "...the germans". You think I feel any guilty coz of what happened in germany between 1933 and 1945? For sure not. It was horrible, disgraceful, intolerable etc, etc.... No doubt. But it was not me. Like YOU didn't participate in the massacre the serbian people put on the bosnian people in the 90ies during the leadership of Milosevic. Or should I hate YOU for that?
So u never should blame a whole country for what their leaders did in my eyes. Sometimes the "normal" folk is just not able to either see the whole truth, or is just too weak to do something against. And then this folk needs help from others to get rid of their leaders (Hitler, Hussein etc...) or rid of their "blindness" to be able to see what really happens.
So I think it is completely wrong to say "We can never forgive the serbians for what they did to the bosnian people". Because u can't blame all of them....
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Geny
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posted April 17, 2007 03:11 PM |
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That was what I meant - hating whole nations is pointless and ridiculous. I, for example, don't hate Germans - I hate nazis, I don't hate arabs - I hate terrorists, I don't hate muslims - I hate blind fanatics etc.
Hating a whole nation just isn't right, because it consists of very very different people.
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angelito
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posted April 17, 2007 08:48 PM |
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Even though it may be slightly offtopic, I have to post this "joke" here, coz it shows quite well how some people think about other nations:
(I apologize if someone feels offended by bringing up something funny in sucha serious thread)
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Two pilots who’ve never flown together before are flying trans-Atlantic. About a half hour into the flight, the Jewish pilot says to the Chinese pilot, "I hate the Chinese."
"All Chinese?" the other pilot replies. "How can you hate all Chinese? WHY do you hate all Chinese?"
The Jewish pilot says, "Because they bombed Pearl Harbor, man."
The Chinese pilot says, "That wasn’t us, that was the Japanese."
"Chinese, Japanese, Viet Namese—it’s all the same thing."
The Chinese pilot doesn’t reply for about half an hour; then he says, "I hate Jews."
"What do you hate Jews for? What did we ever do to you?"
"You sunk the Titanic."
"You’re crazy! The Titanic was sunk by an iceberg."
"Iceberg, Rosenberg, Goldberg—it’s all the same thing."
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homam
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posted April 22, 2007 04:28 AM |
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What would happen if Poland decided to form the alliance?
First of all, many of our descendants would survive the war, wouldn't be taken to concentration camps or butchered on the streets like dogs. Hitler would use Poland as a base for his forces, and attack russia directly, which would probably bring the same scenario as in 1944; they would just freeze there and the commies would strike back. In other words, it would shorten the war, spare many people's life, and prevent the horror of holocaust, for the cost of being called nazi allies; but, what's better, shameful history or milions of butchered innocents?
Good question. I'd personally vote the first one.
Ok but i'll tell u this.The same thing happened with Greece.If Greece had gone with the axis,if also Poland had gone with the axis as u would prefer and if any other country that was been suggested to join axis had gone with them what would me the result of WWII?I don't even want to think about it.
That happened to jewish people was terrible.I put it as the biggest atrocity in the human history.
As for Hitler.He was a leader.He was a sick leader.He started the WWII.He had ideals.Sick ideals.Cause of him 40millions humans died and many other millions suffered for many years.
As for Bush.He is a leader(unlikely).He is a stupid leader.He started not WWIII(likely)but made 2 wars.He had no ideals.Except money.Cause of him many people died and many other are suffering and will be suffering for many years.
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homam
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posted April 22, 2007 05:03 AM |
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Sometimes the "normal" folk is just not able to either see the whole truth, or is just too weak to do something against. And then this folk needs help from others to get rid of their leaders (Hitler, Hussein etc...) or rid of their "blindness" to be able to see what really happens.
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To Angelito
So do u think that the invasion to Iraq was a great action,an action to help Iraqis to get rid of the "evil" Hussein.If u concider the invasion as a help to Iraqis u are nothing more than another non-thinking victim of the US goverment's propaganda.
If u ask a single Iraqi if he's better now without the "evil" Hussein ,in the best case he would take u for crazy.
You also wrote about "blindness".You can ,in a quite easy way, call whole folks "blind" but u should better first check out your own "vision". When u 'll do that u can be able to speak about blindness.
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Colonel_here
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posted April 22, 2007 07:44 AM |
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As for Hitler.He was a leader.He was a sick leader.He started the WWII.He had ideals.Sick ideals.Cause of him 40millions humans died and many other millions suffered for many years.
We should not blame Hitler for WWII. It was the work of all the political powers. France and UK had a chance to stop it so did Soviet Union. The Western Allies created the ground in Germany that was perfect for Nationalistic feelings.
The western world loved Hitler. During Great Depression he was seen as the person who found solution to the problems and stood against the "communist menace". Top industrialists all sent gifts to the guy for his birthday. People discussed him and Nazi party in highest circles of society. Visiting Nazis were always invited to parties held by the most famous and rich of society.
He became the enemy to people after attack on France.
As for invasion of Iraq I believe that US did not ezpect to have securities problems after invasion. The invasion was carried out not to help Iraqi people but to benefit American people.
"Social contracts" dictates that the government acts in the interest of the people. It is in m opinion that the US was looking in Iraq not only for steady oil supply but also for other things:
2. Military bases in Iraq - means that they can remove bases from Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden always in all his videos states that one of the conditions for him to stop the jihad against US is for foreign troops to leave the sacred ground of Saudi Arabia. Many Muslims regard the whole territory of Arabic Peninsula as holy and so no foreign force should be standing there.
3. Less reliance on Israel. Israel doesn't allow US troops on their soil only on exchanges. They also are unsteady ally because they do moves against wishes of "big Daddy". They sold drones to China and etc. This would mean also decreased funding for Israel from US budget and more taxpayers money staying in US.
4. Removal of people who say no too often to "big Daddy". New occupied Iraq will follow US lead and if missiles sites are placed well enough Iran also will shut up. If Iran will know that US can hit them and destroy them before they even know it they will be very careful.
However the resistance and terrorist activities were underestimated by US and so they are in a big trouble now.
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"Only a fool fights a battle he knows he can not win" - Ghengiz Khan
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Geny
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posted April 22, 2007 10:29 AM |
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We should not blame Hitler for WWII.
I don't like how that sounds.
I know what you mean and I kinda agree with you, but that just doesn't sound right.
"We should not blame only Hitler for WWII." - to that I agree.
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angelito
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posted April 22, 2007 12:21 PM |
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To Angelito
So do u think that the invasion to Iraq was a great action,an action to help Iraqis to get rid of the "evil" Hussein.If u concider the invasion as a help to Iraqis u are nothing more than another non-thinking victim of the US goverment's propaganda.
If u ask a single Iraqi if he's better now without the "evil" Hussein ,in the best case he would take u for crazy.
You also wrote about "blindness".You can ,in a quite easy way, call whole folks "blind" but u should better first check out your own "vision". When u 'll do that u can be able to speak about blindness.
Maybe u rethink about that comment again?
How many iraqis did u ask yourself?
How many german people felt BETTER after the invasion of the americans (+french, brits, russians) in 1944, and especially after the war ended 1945? Not a SINGLE german had a better life at that point, because the german folk had quite a good life in the 1920ies and 1930ies.
But the (main) reason was not to help the germans to get rid of Hitler, but to help the whole european continent to get rid of him. Who knows what would have happened if he would have succeeded and conquered whole europe? A few years rest to rebuild his army, and then he for sure would have attacked the USA aswell.
But dispite the fact how the german people felt after the war, look which way this folk took, how the started to build up their country again in such a short time, so the whole world still talks about the "German Wirtschaftswunder", because of the so fast "comeback". Look how germany is positioned in the world again. A democratic country, part of the top 5 industrial countries in the world.
You better ask the families of all the victims Hussein killed during his regime if they feel better now. You better ask the neighbor countries who always feared an invasion (Kuwait) how they feel now. So it is very short sightened (is this even a word in english??) to judge the current situation and say "Iraq invasion was wrong". Give them some years to handle the new freedom, to get used to that new political system. Once they schooled / trained the police and the military there well enough, so they can handle those suicide bombers (what ideology is that, where u kill your own friends and neighbors to gbet attention?) themselves. Iraq has a big potential coz of their oil. If this country will learn to split religion from politics, and give their people some rights to develop their own personality instead of being a puppet of their leader, they can turn into a country like many of the arabian countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Benin, Bahrain or others. Rich and modern countries, where the people have a high life standard and a good life.
"Democracy" may not be the perfect system, but it seems to be the system where the human rights count the most. And that is one of the most important things in life. Freedom and personal rights. So I think it can never be a bad way to get rid of all those "military leaders" and those "might focused only" leaders who give a sh** about their folks.
Of course we can discuss HOW this can be done. And I am not a military fan at all. But sometimes, especially if it comes to "ideological and fundamental religious leaded nations", where diplomacy doesn't help a dime. And I am sure, Amadinejad (Iran) will provoke the UN, and especially the USA more and more, so he will be the next one.
And no, I am for sure NOT a blind american supporter, especially not refering to Mr. Bush. Many things in America are going the wrong way imho. Especially the differences between healthy and poorness are the biggest all over the world. But that's an american problem they have to solve themselves, and it doesn't affect other countries directly, so we don't need to bother.
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Doomforge
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posted April 22, 2007 03:06 PM |
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We should not blame Hitler for WWII.
I don't like how that sounds.
I know what you mean and I kinda agree with you, but that just doesn't sound right.
"We should not blame only Hitler for WWII." - to that I agree.
Well, what can one man do?
He was supported by most of Germans, and he won democratic elections. Main kampf was released in July 1925, so we can't say ppl didn't know what they were voting for. Blaming Jews for everything was approbated by the majority of society (of course not by all, but by many, many people). It shows a lot about 20s-30s Germans. I think we can safely say it's the fault of the majority of Germans. Yes, unfortunately. It's their fault, not only Hitler's fault. I'm sure there's a lot of Germans here, and they will most likely not agree, cuz it concerns their grandparents, but these are the facts.
I know a few Germans that have the courage to say "yes, my grandparents were partially responsible for Nazi emergence". I really respect those who are honest about that.
No one should blame the Germans that live today, though.
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Geny
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posted April 22, 2007 03:46 PM |
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This reminds me something - dis anyone read/see the book/movie "The Wave"? (I hope this is its actual name 'cause I'm translating back to English it from the Hebrew translation)
Not necesserily all or most of the Germans agreed with Hitler, it could be that some were passive/indifferent or just scared by Hitlers propaganda (saying he won the elections in a fair democratic way is not exactly true, because democracy does not include terrorizing your voters).
Now we'll probably never know what exactly happened there, but we must know and remember this: always be prapered to guard your and others rights instead of sitting on the fence and watching the situation get out of control.
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homam
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posted April 22, 2007 03:52 PM |
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Maybe u rethink about that comment again?
How many iraqis did u ask yourself?
How many german people felt BETTER after the invasion of the americans (+french, brits, russians) in 1944, and especially after the war ended 1945? Not a SINGLE german had a better life at that point, because the german folk had quite a good life in the 1920ies and 1930ies.
Fisrtly your comparison Iraqis and Saddam with German and Hitler is wrong and pointless.
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You better ask the families of all the victims Hussein killed during his regime if they feel better now. You better ask the neighbor countries who always feared an invasion (Kuwait) how they feel now. So it is very short sightened (is this even a word in english??) to judge the current situation and say "Iraq invasion was wrong". Give them some years to handle the new freedom, to get used to that new political system. Once they schooled / trained the police and the military there well enough, so they can handle those suicide bombers (what ideology is that, where u kill your own friends and neighbors to gbet attention?) themselves. Iraq has a big potential coz of their oil. If this country will learn to split religion from politics, and give their people some rights to develop their own personality instead of being a puppet of their leader, they can turn into a country like many of the arabian countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Benin, Bahrain or others. Rich and modern countries, where the people have a high life standard and a good life.
Give them some years?For sure i am not the one he can or can't do that.From Usa government u must "ask" to give them some years.But they won't.They will be remaining there,with forces or not,will be there.
U said that this country should split religion from politics.Yeah that's my opinion too.But it's not my problem if the won't do it.They never bother me.They never bother u.
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So I think it can never be a bad way to get rid of all those "military leaders" and those "might focused only" leaders who give a sh** about their folks. And I am sure, Amadinejad (Iran) will provoke the UN, and especially the USA more and more, so he will be the next one.
How can u be so cynical?How can u say that there's no bad way to get rid of all those "military leaders" and "might focused only".So innocents people died i guess for u that wasn't so bad.
And who u consider more "military leader" and "might focused only".Ahmadinejant or Bush.If a "leader"that made already 2 wars,he's not military leader for u what the **** is he?
And the most important.How can u consider USA as the punisher of all.As the punisher of all things might thinks are wrong.None asks for their help.The situation in Iraq is worse than ever.Is worse than all of Saddam's years.
And yes i prefer some "military leaders" than one "punisher" of all.
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And no, I am for sure NOT a blind american supporter, especially not refering to Mr. Bush. Many things in America are going the wrong way imho. Especially the differences between healthy and poorness are the biggest all over the world. But that's an american problem they have to solve themselves, and it doesn't affect other countries directly, so we don't need to bother.
And yeah after all u are another blind american supporter.But of course u can't see it.
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Geny
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posted April 22, 2007 04:01 PM |
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U said that this country should split religion from politics.Yeah that's my opinion too.But it's not my problem if the won't do it.They never bother me.They never bother u.
They bothered ME and 6 millions of other Israelis when they bombed us in times of the first Iraqi war.
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homam
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posted April 22, 2007 04:11 PM |
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They bothered ME and 6 millions of other Israelis when they bombed us in times of the first Iraqi war.
No.Iraqis "bother" u.And terrorists bother u.But it has nothing to do with the close relationship with religion.
Terrorists use religion to do such actions.Yeah i'm with u here.
But none has the right to invade a country only for it's close realtionship with religion.There are other countries too which have a closed relationship with religion.Should someone invade them for this?
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