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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 05:21 PM |
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Quote:
Yes mini-artis are good, but ZombieLord is right... that is not a huge bonus. Lvl 3 mini artis on all troops is impossible to obtain on normal maps, I think lvl 2 minis on most troops , maybe only lvl 1 on some is reachable in end game...
So your hero will be a decent knight, but nothing incredible.
Yes most of times lvl 2 are obtainable. Generally i have similar feeling about them. Its just comination of decent knight with total antimagic is much better than poor lineup of dungeon. After raiders are killed by djinies and gremlins, only offensive unit left on dungeon side are dragons. They wont do much alone. Rest of the army will got shot by high initiative academy units.
Well average 25% higher initiative from the beginning of combat is not a feature of creatures, but mini artifacts. Its even better than mass haste since it works from the beginning of combat , not after hero spell.
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Anyway it is not only Academy that is better than Dungeon in the long run, Haven, Sylvan and Inferno are also much better than Dungeon on long term. They are much better than Academy too,even with its mini-artifacts ! But the fact is that Dungeon is a rush town and you can end the battle before late game, so that is where your true power lies... and if you attack fast enough Academy won't have minis and you will win.
Thats true but heaven doesn't have counterspell and sylvan usually doesn't ( its hard to get but if one would actually get it it would be almost as broken as wizards, no jhora however leave an option for hit&runs). As i said earlier rushing is only way to stop it and you are not always able to rush. I dont like the rush or death concept , and counterspell doing this.
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It is not a 100% loss situation,
You are right it is not but it is unfairly high. What is the point of starting game if you know that you have 10%-20% chances of win? There is no point i think. Game should be about outsmarting an opponent not about desperate struggle to defeat imbalances in the game.
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10%-20% is a bit low
I know its not what you meant but it's too low , in fact
Ok guys i definitely end this subject. I will stick to my opinion untill somebody proves me im wrong. Theorycrafting is nice thing but i faced sad ingame reality and i will not change my opinion after hearing your theories on that issue.
Perhaps you are better players and can beat that counterspell strategy i just know its too much for me. I can imagine winning but , its like max 20% chances for me and i find it not fair.
Well i cant complain though. In matchup Dungeon vs necro, necro have chances of win equal to getting shackless, so its not that bad i guess.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted April 24, 2007 05:22 PM |
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So the conlcusion is... Dungeon creatures are underpowered against Academy
Not that I agree though
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted April 24, 2007 05:40 PM |
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Quote:
Yes most of times lvl 2 are obtainable. Generally i have similar feeling about them. Its just comination of decent knight with total antimagic is much better than poor lineup of dungeon. After raiders are killed by djinies and gremlins, only offensive unit left on dungeon side are dragons. They wont do much alone. Rest of the army will got shot by high initiative academy units.
Well average 25% higher initiative from the beginning of combat is not a feature of creatures, but mini artifacts. Its even better than mass haste since it works from the beginning of combat , not after hero spell.
That is not always the case imho ... You play Yrwanna , so you will have powerfull furys which act first always! If you lucky hit the Djins, your raiders will be safe and you will aim them and the Dragons against the Titans and the game will be yours... It depends alot on the troops arangement... It is not a 100% loss situation, it depends on artifacts and many other things too.
Anyway it is not only Academy that is better than Dungeon in the long run, Haven, Sylvan and Inferno are also much better than Dungeon on long term. They are much better than Academy too,even with its mini-artifacts ! But the fact is that Dungeon is a rush town and you can end the battle before late game, so that is where your true power lies... and if you attack fast enough Academy won't have minis and you will win.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 24, 2007 06:07 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 18:13, 24 Apr 2007.
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For those that don't know, feluniozbunio is out of his post limit (edited the first post in this page). I'll post his reply here 
feluniozbunio wrote:Quote:
Quote:
Anyway it is not only Academy that is better than Dungeon in the long run, Haven, Sylvan and Inferno are also much better than Dungeon on long term. They are much better than Academy too,even with its mini-artifacts ! But the fact is that Dungeon is a rush town and you can end the battle before late game, so that is where your true power lies... and if you attack fast enough Academy won't have minis and you will win.
Thats true but heaven doesn't have counterspell and sylvan usually doesn't ( its hard to get but if one would actually get it it would be almost as broken as wizards, no jhora however leave an option for hit&runs). As i said earlier rushing is only way to stop it and you are not always able to rush. I dont like the rush or death concept , and counterspell doing this.
Quote:
It is not a 100% loss situation,
You are right it is not but it is unfairly high. What is the point of starting game if you know that you have 10%-20% chances of win? There is no point i think. Game should be about outsmarting an opponent not about desperate struggle to defeat imbalances in the game.
My post:
Quote:
You are right it is not but it is unfairly high. What is the point of starting game if you know that you have 10%-20% chances of win? There is no point i think.
10%-20% is a bit low 
Quote:
Game should be about outsmarting an opponent not about desperate struggle to defeat imbalances in the game.
I agree but I don't see how attacking with furies means imbalances, or perhaps I am on the wrong track here
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 06:59 PM |
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About dungeon and academy, they have their own strength and weakness, that many people fail to see.
Dungeon rarely fail rushing their enemies, and in late game their armies are huge threat, even not that good as might faction, but underestimating dungeon's armies may become the downfall of any might faction.
Imo academy armies in late game are almost equal to those of might, and academy is the most versalite faction, let's see an example: lv 21 knight has atk 7, def 11, sp 3, kn 4; wizard has atk 2, def 3, sp 8, kn 12, it's up to the wizard whether they want to increase their might potential or if they're againts fast faction, they should increase init (agresive mode) or def (using spell), againts another faction, their mini arties combo is different. Very versalite. I know that the growth is random, but that's only an example.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted April 24, 2007 08:38 PM |
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So to sum it up... I would say Dungeon is not underpowered when fighting CounterSpell Academy. You have nice options to win if you rush, in lategame it becomes much harder, but it is still possible to win.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 08:49 PM |
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Yup, but imo using dungeon is easier than academy. I hate to gamble with MMR, academy standard strategy is also good, but without MMR they lack creeping speed againts very strong stacks (ex: about 40 lv 7 stacks).
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Yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted April 24, 2007 08:50 PM |
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Wouldn't Dungeon player just use matriarch's spells to soak up conterspell??
I havent played H5 in a while but as far as i remember, it worked...
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 08:52 PM |
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That's why academy must get rid of those girls quickly if you play counterspell game.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted April 24, 2007 09:39 PM |
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When Dungeon faces counterspell
The real question seems to be, how many rounds will it take to kill Martriachs when your hero does nothing but cast counterspell. Every round to use trying to kill matriachs you suffer massive spell damage. Once matriachs are killed you are left with two magic oriented heroes fighting with just creatures (though academy will be criplled from early spells (not to mention the occational spell every 4 or so rounds on top of that).
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 10:32 PM |
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You have many option whether to play counterspell game or not, academy is very versalite faction.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted April 24, 2007 11:38 PM |
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My point isn't that the academy is outmatched, it does of plenty of options. I was just pointing out the dungeon has a viable counter to counterspell, thus counterspell is not imba.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 11:43 PM |
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Late game, a wizard with protection(artificer), mass haste(initiative artificer bonus*..*1.4), mass righteous might(*sometimes artificered luck) and counterspell will probably make a pathetic defense warlock well... hmm.. not that happy. But then our "poor", so ruthlessly attacked, warlock will remind himself that he is the biggest hit and run snow in the game and will gladly use a free "town portal" unless shackles.
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 04:58 AM |
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Saw something interesting here that peaked my curiosity: If Dungeon manages to get 50% fire resist, does that make B. Dragons immune to Armageddon despite 50% irresistable from expert racial?
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Plexus22
Known Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 06:18 AM |
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Quote:
Saw something interesting here that peaked my curiosity: If Dungeon manages to get 50% fire resist, does that make B. Dragons immune to Armageddon despite 50% irresistable from expert racial?
I think it would make them 75% resistant not completely resistant. The 50% resist would resist half the damage that got through after the dragons creature resistance. Im not sure of this, if im wrong someone will correct me
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 12:01 PM |
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Quote:
Late game, a wizard with protection(artificer), mass haste(initiative artificer bonus*..*1.4), mass righteous might(*sometimes artificered luck) and counterspell will probably make a pathetic defense warlock well... hmm.. not that happy. But then our "poor", so ruthlessly attacked, warlock will remind himself that he is the biggest hit and run snow in the game and will gladly use a free "town portal" unless shackles.
true, true..
Don't forget that powercreeping leads to the town portal spell aswell. The correct one That makes catching warlock a wet dream of almost all factions, especially if he gets logistics.
I think it's not that bad for dungeon vs. academy, given that academy player needs great experience and map knowledge in order to prevail. When he meets an equal in terms of skill, I think things look a bit different
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 01:12 PM |
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You cant do much hit&running if your hero acts second in 90% cases and his units have 13+ initiative from the beginning of combat
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 01:23 PM |
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In early, i think it's possible to hit and run.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 01:28 PM |
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Yea you will come in 3rd week and kill few gargoyles and golems and escape just to come back in 5th week and meet rest of his army but this time equiped with mini artifats.
Its either you win early or its gg.
Quote:
So to sum it up... I would say Dungeon is not underpowered when fighting CounterSpell Academy. You have nice options to win if you rush, in lategame it becomes much harder, but it is still possible to win.
I would say differently. Unless your opponent is very unlucky, you are screawed. Now let me tell you something about rushing academy. Not that you i think you dont know how does it work but i bet others may dont know.
I had a fight on week 3 day 2 against academy i took all my 12 hydras with me since i wanted to do some damage and escape. Fight begun. He placed only gargoyles and golems. I split hydras in 2 stacks , 6 each.
His ballista went first. With its first shot he killed 5 of my hydras and 1 in second shot(there was no more lef). I said wooot? ive never seen anythin like this before. ok now my hero. what could i do.. let me see.. kill few gargoyles? i was some damage short to kill his balista but even if i did kill it it wouldnt change a single thing. His hero was next . He knew i will have to run and didnt even use counterspell and just kill couple more hydras with a spell. I was preety much done at this point. There was no way i could win this game. Maybe i should attack him in week 2? But wait with what? furies and assasins? and crappy minotaurs? Give me a break.
Now tell me did i do somethiong wrong or what ? because if i took all my army with me he would placed all his units and it wouldnt change a single thing because all hydras would be dead in 2 rounds and raiders wouldn't be able to much alone. I dont even consider furies and assasins since those units are a joke in battles vs human opponent. So you see , Towerlord , it's easy to say that i have nice options when i rush but its just empty talking. Rushing without magic is misunderstanding, and you can get counterspell in first week before any rushes are possible.
I know that you would wish this game to be balanced and from your posts on different issues i draw a conclusion that you actually think that everything is balanced, but it isnt true.
And my conclusion about this matchup is that academy is in advantage generally in this matchup and counterspell raises this advantage skyhigh.
Moderator's note: QP applied for interesting post and for overall informative contribution through pages 1-4 of thread.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 03:19 PM |
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Whew, that was a nasty ballista
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This thread is pages long: 
