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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 03, 2007 05:31 PM |
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Quote:
Dwarves are powerful, yes, and still need a good, creative player to create an abusive strategy for them. Who knows what future may bring.. 
Of course I meant they are imba.
Why? Well because they have high resource costs, which apparently makes them on equal foot against others. This is simply a wrong type of balancing. For example, Thanes are very overpowered with a couple of runes -- but they have high resource costs. Increasing the costs because some creatures are just plain overpowered is just a very, very bad idea of balancing. It favors so many factors, etc.
Quote:
Btw, all towns have been considered as imbalanced at certain point  Even inferno, when Deleb abuse was invented.
Forgot about marksmen eh?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 03, 2007 05:56 PM |
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From what I recall..
after the game's initial release, most of the ppl looked at stats and screamed "omg dungeon imba" "omg furies imba" and similiar nonsense. After that, Necropolis was considered imbalanced due to skeletons, but only until Klaus was discovered. Klaus started the haven imba thing, and was quickly succeded by dougal who became the new imbalance king. After his fall (and necro), Deleb was considered overpowered. For now, the title is shared by sylvan (wyngaal, banned everywhere) and academy (widely considered overpowered).
So, the future belongs to dwarves and orcs!
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted May 03, 2007 07:10 PM |
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saying academy is overpowered is nonsense imho... it's very good in fast games, but later things are very hard for academy!
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted May 03, 2007 08:17 PM |
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Well, yeah but in long games they can level up a knight and bececome too strong again 
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted May 04, 2007 12:42 PM |
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Now I think I have the explanation why Academy grew so much in the eyes of players... It's true they didn't receive any favor, but they didn't get nerfed at all! Necropolis nerfing was a very hard hit for them, and the Skeleton factory was turned into a pathetic Necromancy which hardly doubles your troop numbers. Also former king Haven received a major hit, with the new training system... Training Paladins is powerfull on the long turn, but can die very easy to a rush ! So it isn't really the super strategies that made academy what it is, it's big nerfing to other towns.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 04, 2007 12:47 PM |
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well, the town has strong anti-magic and magic of it's own paired by rushes powerful enough to wash theoritically superior lategame factions (haven, sylvan) before they rise to power. Pretty simple, I think. It also resists destructive magic the most, so it can't be dungeonrushed THAT easily as the rest.
Damn, I really need to master the dwarves myself. I'm not seeing anyone creative enough to make them "imbalanced", so I have to do it myself 
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2007 01:49 PM |
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Academy's biggest pros is that it is good in both, early and late game.
Slightly better in early game and slightly worse in end but still very good. Other towns have bigger gap between short and long game and you can use their weak points with Academy and yet if you screw up and wont manage let's say rush sylvan you still are in a good shape in the late game.
Quote:
Damn, I really need to master the dwarfs myself. I'm not seeing anyone creative enough to make them "imbalanced", so I have to do it myself
I may help you a bit with it
I got already some nice strategies but i need few more games to get more experience before i post anything. By the way.. i am in a game with Towerlord again - him with sylvan and me with dwarfs .. we shall see what the outcome will be... From my first look at them i wouldn't say they are overpowered tho, for this moment i find them little slow in creeping but perhaps i need some more practice. And another irritating thing is that they need soo many buildings, you are just not able to build them fast enough with 1 per day limitation.. not to mention huge resources requirements.
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted May 04, 2007 02:21 PM |
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I too have been playing a little Academy lately and I do find them to be a very effective force. I havn't played vs a late game haven, and have not been rushed by deleb yet. But from what I see its not the faction that makes Academy a step above its the player piloting them.
Heres my reasoning..
Academy to me seems to be the only faction which offers such a wide variety of strategies, combinations, and build methods.. and by to offer I mean, any route will work.
So a good player can scout his map, looks at the state of the game, estimate the time in game, know his opponent, and move from there. The ability to adapt to most situations is what makes this a strong faction.
Again in any thread about a faction you can discuss the imbalances of their racial skill. Thats what makes these factions unique. Artificer is indeed and extremely powerful ability. I've experimented with many different wizard builds and many different lv3 minis to see which works great. And oddly enough.. I havn't run into a bad combination yet. A small note on this, I think the "dismantle artifact" feature should be removed from the interface. Giving the player back the resources already spent on an artifact might be a bit overkill.
The other reason in the TOH community Academy is gettig quite a name for itself is the number of necro clans around. I think Necro will have a very very hard time vs Academy very frequently, with counterspell, flaming arrows, ect ect.. Banish if you like..
All in all Academy is a very strong faction, and in the hands of a good player who can see and take opportunities.. its going to be a top faction.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted May 05, 2007 09:52 PM |
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Agreed, academy is the most versalite faction, that's why it depends on the player piloting it.
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted May 07, 2007 05:55 AM |
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Quote:
Damn, I really need to master the dwarves myself. I'm not seeing anyone creative enough to make them "imbalanced", so I have to do it myself
too bad those stupid no-cds and images create the rune bug. 
Nothing creative about rune of "multi hit no retaliation". I also like the power I just got the other day called distract. But I geuss you mean in multiplayer games.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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Plexus22
Known Hero
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posted May 08, 2007 06:20 AM |
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Quote:
saying academy is overpowered is nonsense imho... it's very good in fast games, but later things are very hard for academy!
This is exactly what I have found with Academy as well. Like others have said, Academy has a diverse strategy selection and with a player who knows how to use them and also knows the enemy well, Academy can become quite powerful in late game battles but I have found that even with the right skills and abilities and also some lvl 3 mini arties against a might faction the pure superiority of their army and usually superior speed as well makes it a very challenging fight for Academy. Even with the right spells and a good game plan, the Academy player must be very calculating and execute their fight just right because they have a very limited window of opportunity to do it right before their army will simply be wiped out by the superior enemy units.
And the benefits of having many strategies to chose from can also be ones death because if they chose the wrong strategy theres a good chance they will get destroyed even by a mediocre player using a might faction or almost any faction for that matter.
Quote:
Btw, all towns have been considered as imbalanced at certain point Even inferno, when Deleb abuse was invented.
Yep, this is why its kind of ridiculous every time one of these threads pops up because every time someone discovers one characteristic of a faction that is very good against some other faction they start crying imbalance imbalance!
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Olo
Hired Hero
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posted May 15, 2007 06:21 PM |
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It`s always nice to read some new tactics from experienced players
i will write some word about mine , i hope it wont be useless
1) HERO - for a long time i choosed Jhora or Nathir, I thought they are simly the best wizards.i never played Razzak because for me he sucked. How wrong i was ;p why ? because he start with DEFENSE and i found that this is extremaly important skill for wizards(and also really hard to obtain - 5%).Also his golems become a real killer machines. now after many games i may say he is better than Jhora and Nathir 
He starts with 13-14 golems, just give him some Master gremlims develop properly and You can reach all the most important mines in 2 weeks(depends of the map ofc )
2)Skills
Priority: DEFENSE - evasion , vitality and protecion
SORCERY- magic insight(!!) arcane training , counterspell
Light Magic -MAster of abjuration(if have proper spell in spell book ofc)
the last 2 slot usually go for :
DESTRUCTION MAGIC - Sap magic, fiery wrath , master of ... (mostly fire if i have armageddon )
LOGISTIC-pathfinding, march of the golems(a no brainer for razzak), teleport assault
sometimes i choose attack ( if lucky ) or dark magic instead of DM or Logistic
having spell deflect missile (3rd level) +evasion you arent afraid of any shooter
having SAP magic , protection + magic Mirror , creatures immunities,resistance(gargoyles , golems) and mini arties, "normal"artifacts - give your army almost 100% protection from damaging spells (Armageddon  )
As i said defence is really important, the longer you have army the longer you can cast damaging /cursing spell
i say no to : ENLIGHTENMENT( i`m not interested in few extra levels and some extra knowledge), LUCK (mini arties !!or normal artifacts ),War Machine( it`s nice combo with ATTACK but hard to obtain) ,LEADERSHIP(completly useless for wizard)and Summoning Magic(i need only Fantom Forces --> magic insight)
thats all i win all games on hard / heroic except one ;p ( bad luck). also played few LAN games and never lost
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 15, 2007 08:22 PM |
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Try some toh games one day Not with me tho.. im retired till october at least
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Olo
Hired Hero
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posted May 16, 2007 10:34 AM |
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ok i`ll try maybe on summer when i will have more time 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 16, 2007 11:01 AM |
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Quote:
im retired till october at least
so you'll come back.. when september ends had, to write it, I love that song, sorry
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted May 17, 2007 08:39 PM |
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Quote:
It`s always nice to read some new tactics from experienced players
i will write some word about mine , i hope it wont be useless
1) HERO - for a long time i choosed Jhora or Nathir, I thought they are simly the best wizards.i never played Razzak because for me he sucked. How wrong i was ;p why ? because he start with DEFENSE and i found that this is extremaly important skill for wizards(and also really hard to obtain - 5%).Also his golems become a real killer machines. now after many games i may say he is better than Jhora and Nathir
He starts with 13-14 golems, just give him some Master gremlims develop properly and You can reach all the most important mines in 2 weeks(depends of the map ofc )
2)Skills
Priority: DEFENSE - evasion , vitality and protecion
SORCERY- magic insight(!!) arcane training , counterspell
Light Magic -MAster of abjuration(if have proper spell in spell book ofc)
the last 2 slot usually go for :
DESTRUCTION MAGIC - Sap magic, fiery wrath , master of ... (mostly fire if i have armageddon )
LOGISTIC-pathfinding, march of the golems(a no brainer for razzak), teleport assault
sometimes i choose attack ( if lucky ) or dark magic instead of DM or Logistic
having spell deflect missile (3rd level) +evasion you arent afraid of any shooter
having SAP magic , protection + magic Mirror , creatures immunities,resistance(gargoyles , golems) and mini arties, "normal"artifacts - give your army almost 100% protection from damaging spells (Armageddon )
As i said defence is really important, the longer you have army the longer you can cast damaging /cursing spell
i say no to : ENLIGHTENMENT( i`m not interested in few extra levels and some extra knowledge), LUCK (mini arties !!or normal artifacts ),War Machine( it`s nice combo with ATTACK but hard to obtain) ,LEADERSHIP(completly useless for wizard)and Summoning Magic(i need only Fantom Forces --> magic insight)
thats all i win all games on hard / heroic except one ;p ( bad luck). also played few LAN games and never lost
I must say you are not very far from the truth... Razzak is not bad at all, I was successfull with him once. I consider him a very powerfull choice for long term games, but in short/medium games he cannot compete with Jhora, Nathir, Havez.
If I were to build him for end game, I would go something like this:
- Defense + Vitality, Evasion
- Light Magic with all three Masters
- Logistics obviously march of the golem
- Luck (+ resistance maybe)
- Enlightment
Maybe Dark Magic instead of Enlightment or Luck in some situations could work very well.
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Olo
Hired Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 11:28 PM |
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[quote
I must say you are not very far from the truth... Razzak is not bad at all, I was successfull with him once. I consider him a very powerfull choice for long term games, but in short/medium games he cannot compete with Jhora, Nathir, Havez.
If I were to build him for end game, I would go something like this:
- Defense + Vitality, Evasion
- Light Magic with all three Masters
- Logistics obviously march of the golem
- Luck (+ resistance maybe)
- Enlightment
Maybe Dark Magic instead of Enlightment or Luck in some situations could work very well.
Ahh Havez, i forgot about him well he is strong but has poor specialization.No matter what gremlins wont be a killer
in same way he is similar to Razzak, more might oriented than Jhora or Nathir. A pity that Nival didn`t make 2 kind of heros in each castle as it was in H3
Hmmm Luck is really important in H5 but u can easily have +5 to Luck due to many flags , fountain ,artefact and mini artifact.there aren`t useful perks(maybe resistance only but not vs warlock )
I`m not convinced to Enlightment - it`s useful in short games , still prefer for e.x defense or attack
About Light magic and perks - i choose that perks which will affect my spells if have all needed then i choose all 3 , not only master of abjuration as i wrote
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 12:05 AM |
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Yep, ihora's speciality is a superb choice for armagedoning
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 19, 2007 12:12 PM |
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hahaha. ok Towerlord youre right its possible to rush dungeon with sylvan. I just did lol. Week 2 day 7 win
He was no noob,he had circle of winter 600dmg along with exp sorcery and all creatures you can get in this time + additional 45 marksmen.
Meteor shower with exp sorcery + slippers + 4 sp from artifacts won me the game (i had 3 sp on my own on 16 lvl and exp enlightenment) I had some additional creatures too but that didnt matter a lot since he was killing nearly all of them with single circle. I had 7 treants as my staying power but still had some other creatures left after the fight.
He couldn't believe he lost and i couldn't believe i won after seeing his hero lol
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 19, 2007 12:26 PM |
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pretty weird.
anyways, the new sylvan alternatives look interesting enough to give them a try in 2nd expansion. Maybe I'll even switch to sylvan?
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This thread is pages long: 
