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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 20, 2008 03:48 PM |
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As someone here once said ... where do these guys come from? 
if someone posts their oppinion and solutions thats not okay then? well maybe you should consider transforming the forum into moderator-monolog-only replies.
the forum is used infact to discuss and not to accept what was written in the first place. not all of us agree with the alternate upgrades posted by doomforge...
You are entitled to your oppinion, and I'm entitled to mine.
Obviously, you got my drift even though I didn't bother to splice up and cut down each of your arguments, but among the many treasures I find in your post, I think this one bears an extra repeat:
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you gotta be kidding at this point, stalkers ARE USELESS. (...) invisibility is a crapy skill, the assasins poison is far better (...).
Also, I'm somewhat amused by the way you defend a number of creatures because of their higher stats - such as, of all things, Brisk Raiders?
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What will happen now?
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 20, 2008 03:48 PM |
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Brute is the obvious choice here. they have Assault which triggers more-often than Bash, conscripts also loose their taxpayer ability, if you play with Ellaine Conscripts could be useless...
I remember the Conscripts having the taxpayer ability though
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 04:35 PM |
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Alci: hah, seems I have created quite a famous quote 
shadowfury: You may or may not agree, no one forces an opinion to anyone, of course. BUT! When I wrote about what you said about stalkers, I understood why alcibiades said what he did 
Let me explain: Stalkers are the ultimate way to make dungeon easy and dominating on any level - from noobs to good players (i'm not saying pros because I'm not a pro - I'm actually far from it ). If you don't realize it, it indicates you have pretty little multiplayer experience. No offense mate, that's just how it works  There are things that are a matter of taste, like conscript vs. brute, since it has little impact on the game anyway, but there are things that are as obvious as that the earth is not flat, like the stalkers' value for earlygame creeping. If you try to argue about the latter, you're just ridiculing yourself. While samiekl said a few times that assassins may be useful in the endgame more than stalkers, it is stalkers that make this faction powerful in the first place.
I didn't bother to read the rest. As for the Arcane Archers, there has been a discussion lately where I proved that there is a point at which the Arcanes are better than master hunters, unicorn horn bow or not: It happens with creatures of defense higher than 25 or so. And 25 def isn't something unreachable for creatures of tier4 and higher, especially with heroes with enlightment and good arties. So, AAs are better for those even with Unicorn horn bow, and vastly superior in any other case.
Cheers
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 04:37 PM |
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You don't to play a multiplayer game in order to see Stalkers effectiveness. All you need is to try them both, and see which one can brake Pack of Dragons faster for example
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 04:40 PM |
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True, but players that play mostly with AI rarely concentrate on things like fast break
Oh, and just as alci said: A good ability is infinitely more valuable then a bit bigger stats.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 04:49 PM |
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Quote:
True, but players that play mostly with AI rarely concentrate on things like fast break
Oh, and just as alci said: A good ability is infinitely more valuable then a bit bigger stats.
Stalker also happens to have better stats
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 20, 2008 10:13 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 22:15, 20 Jul 2008.
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@shadowfury
Don't mind Alc, he just found some of your points amusing. I think doomforge already explained a few things but I will add my two cents.
Mistresses can be just as good as by the time seducers act they may be weakened and therefore the duration of the special decreased. Academy is sure to have initiative mini arties so it's probably not a good choice but that's just one part of the whole.
Pit lords are virtually useless after some time due to the logarithmic value of the stack spellpower increase but a game will rarely drag on much. There's more to consider than melee vs caster choice.
Assassins will rarely have an impact in a final battle. At least stalkers can give you at least one more casting turn and believe they are not so easy to find while the warlock blasts you with spells.
Minotaur guards will rarely get a chance to use their double attack so..
Brisk raiders have nothing that makes up for the grims' charging attack. They usually decrease enemy defense by 100% and can be a highly threatening unit.
You must not have played much dungeon. You don't NEED an army to win a siege. Besides mistresses are pretty good spellcasters themselves, in fact I think they have same spells.
You underestimate ksatras a lot.
Plague zombies will rarely get more than a few hits, it's a matter of damage vs survivability and necro needs the latter more.
Shieldguards vs. Mountain Defenders there's more to starting stats. Likewise with tier 6.
You get my point, most of what you wrote is about what the paper shows but when playing multiplayer it is a totally different deal. You'll see for yourself.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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espen15
Famous Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 10:49 PM |
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i see so its good to own third alternative upgrade, if i played tribes of the east first time i thought that third upgrade is upgrade for 2 upgrade, i was wrong, but in some alternatives like aas, thunder thanes, firehounds, horned grunts aso you feel like the third alternative is anyway better and you will pick that one.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 21, 2008 09:15 AM |
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It shouldn't be better it should be a difficult choice, situation dependant. If I take Arcane archers blindly every game, it means Nival screwed it up.
Of course making two units with different abilities and equal usefulness is extremely hard.. but sometimes it feels as if they haven't even tried 
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Isabel
Known Hero
Dragonblessed
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posted July 21, 2008 09:31 AM |
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Quote:
Brisk raiders have nothing that makes up for the grims' charging attack. They usually decrease enemy defense by 100% and can be a highly threatening unit.
Brisk riders have one distinct advantage over grim riders: They are fun! Watching them charging through enemy ranks and turning their spear is the most amusing .
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2008 09:31 AM |
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I think you overrate a little stalkers. Stalkers give you the possibility to engage the enemy in final fight with more army, and that's because:
1. no need to take fast sorcery to kill archers/casters, thus leaving room for another skill that's more useful early: logistics.
2. no need to upgrade hydras to be able to creep thus having more crystals which leads to the possibility of building 100% dragons in 2nd week.
3. stalkers are a neat melee force. Very valuable in final fight. On par with assassins' shooting. Perhaps better. Just turn invisible in 1st round and attack with no retaliation + poison in the 2nd.
That being said, the creeping is not in any way hindered if you go for assassins(except the logistics part), only that you'll have losses in the beginning, and losses hurt dungeon so bad. It's how hit-and-running appeared.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 21, 2008 10:28 AM |
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Did you mean underrate, samiekl?
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2008 10:49 AM |
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Nope, i said overrate and i meant overrate. Dungeon had no creeping problems before tote, and saying that stalkers make this faction it's a little too much. They give some boost, but it's not like dungeon can't be played competitive without them.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted July 21, 2008 11:19 AM |
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True, dungeon still one of the fastest creeper without stalkers, but i think you miss some hidden point of Doomforge.
Imo, i agree with Doom, he said that stalker help noob to veteran in creeping, yup, i think it is true, before ToTE, no noob is able to creep very very fast with assasins, but now, any noob will creep much more faster with stalkers.
Quote:
TIER7 Black Dragon vs. Red Dragon: While most of the community was thinking Reds will become superior to blacks before ToTe got released, it turned out that they aren't that much of an improvement. Incinerate isn't that good, since you need an enemy stack adjacent to yours to use it (in other words, you need to charge, and you know what remains of charging dungeon troops, I think..), and the fact that Reds are not magic immune is really a bad thing, especially since they can be used against you with puppet master or blown to pieces by destructive. Since warlock is all about magic, I'd keep using the more sturdy black dragons. You need tanks, survivability and reliability, not some random points of damage more.. along with casualties when your frenzied red dragons turn against your own troops.
And about red dragon thingy, i never test this in competitive play, i'm not ToH player too, but i think red dragon are too underated by the comunity.
As long as there are no dark magic, it can shine, but warlock need summoning magic, he/she need arcane armor badly (not the phoenix), though phoenix is also a nice addition for some distraction or another use.
I've test some build in sorgal or sinitar or eruina or yrwana. I try summoning, atk, sorc, enlightment, log, the result for red dragon is good, another one is summoning, dest, sorc, enlightment, log, i still comparing the result, dunno which one is better, though i prefer the second one.
As long as there are no nasty dark magics, arcane armor provide red dragon with a great boost, both in physical defense and magic defense, especially in case of magic defense againts destruction and divine vengeance, a black dragon againts ultimate irresistible magic can only block 25% of the dmg, while red dragon with arcane armor can still block 50% of it, though againts divine vengeance, black dragon is better, but i never try a warlock with divine vengeance, i dunno whether the divine vengeance can be applied to black dragon via irresistible or not, if yes, then red dragon with arcane armor also perform better than black dragon againts DV, but forget it, people tend to ban DV.
Still, imo casting arcane armor in red dragon is much more better than casting magic immunity, unless againts nasty dark magic, but againts dark magic anyone will 100% go for blackies.
And sometimes againts some factions, since red dragon is far tougher with arcane armor we won't afraid to rush the red dragon to the front, unlike blackies.
I know that taking summoning will screw the warlock's progress, but i'm optimist that a very good player is smart and creative enough to find the solution.
I said this because the fact about alt upg is sad, some alt upg is just a failure. And maybe i'm just a Dungeon and Dragon fan, well, red dragon is far stronger than black dragon in D&D.
Keep in mind, this is just my personal thought that i want to share. So, maybe a ToH player want to test this.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2008 11:49 AM |
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Edited by samiekl at 12:08, 21 Jul 2008.
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True, stalkers are noob-friendly but unless they know how to use this advantage and especially WHEN to use it, it doesn't make a big difference in final fight. Going for stalkers + spells all the way will actually slow you down more then you can imagine. Again, unless the player learns how to make good use of his army, stalkers or not, they are still dead.
About that red dragon thingy. The build with 2 magic schools i used a lot before tote and then it was very effective. Keep in mind that a dungeon pheonix is the most scary bird. Now, what would you prefer to cast first, a bird or armor? I honestly would go for bird 100% of times. Let's compare something. Let's say dungeon vs necro. Puppet will hurt you even more than you think because red does insane damage to an adjacent target. Same against inferno. Against academy, unless you're 100% that they don;t have dark, black dragon is better. Against haven...red dragon, against dwarves, black dragon. Against orcs, red dragon. Against sylvan, never red dragon. So, red dragon is better against 2 factions. Against academy, necro and inferno i wouldn't advise taking red dragon unless you have light. That's it. Red dragon and black dragon are pretty well balanced. Perhaps red dragon needs a little more boosting, like 25% magic resistance, but overall it's ok.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted July 21, 2008 12:30 PM |
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About phoenix vs arcane on red, i think arcane is better, true, a phoenix act faster than red, but i still think that preserving one of your greatest asset come first, then the second cast is up to you, phoenix or destruction magic or dark magic or etc. Still in late game, 30 or more dragons is more powerful in case of dmg than a phoenix with 40 spellpower + master of conjuration + lv 31 hero (it's a fact from my last game with my friend). And if i'm not mistaken some ToH maps provide easy and fast access to get more than 30 dragons. Imo it depends on the situation and your strategy
Still, in your case, i'm just curious, if red and black is balanced and you prefer bird in first cast, wouldn't this make black better choice than red??? You can blast your enemy in second cast with black but third cast with red, sry for bad grammar. Don't take this seriously, i admire you, i see you as one of the most open minded dungeon player in ToH
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2008 12:50 PM |
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Why would i prefer black over red if i cast bird? It has nothing to do with it. red does more damage, it's more offensive, plus can get better with witches' righteous might. Second, about 30 dragons vs bird, keep in mind that dragons die and won't do the same damage in 2nd turn. A 30 spellpower bird could be killed by 33 upg sylvan dragons in 2 turns doing the same damage in those 2 turns (if i remember correctly 7-10 dragons killed per turn). So i better have 2 (fast)offensive units than 1.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted July 21, 2008 01:10 PM |
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I was just thought that with black you can cast destructive in turn 2 after summoning bird, while red is third turn, i think black is better because it deal more dmg than red if you cast destructive after summoning bird in turn 1, that's why i thought you would prefer black over red, true that the possibility is more complex than what i said.
Yeah, i get your point, i was thinking about that too, red dragons number decrease each turn, but wihtout arcane armor cast on it in first turn they will extinct much more faster, wihtout arcane armor, turn 2 red dragon will probably deal less dmg than a phoenix, with arcane armor, it still deal more dmg than phoenix even if it is focused by enemy creatures, casting arcane armor in second turn is complete waste for it is too late (especially againts DV user and strong destructive user), but againts might faction, imo casting arcane armor in second turn is better especially againts fast and damaging faction like sylvan and dragons has breath attack, i know good player rarely become victim of it. I'd say that it depends on the situation, no?
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2008 01:35 PM |
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So i better have dragons without armour and pheonix in 1st turn then turn 2 start casting destruction.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted July 21, 2008 01:46 PM |
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That's what i thought, but maybe the possibility is more complex than that, so casting arcane in second and destruction third may has better outcome in the end, who knows And red dragon is still more offensive without arcane, just righteous might from witch make it deals much more dmg than black.
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