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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Alternatives comparison
Thread: Alternatives comparison This thread is 23 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 19 20 21 22 23 · «PREV / NEXT»
radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted May 23, 2007 07:59 AM

Invisibility will be similiar to Hide from H4 (bandits'), I'd say.

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted May 23, 2007 11:52 AM

Have you noticed that the Dangeon's alternative upgrades have no shooters at all?
All their shooters got the ability Invisibility instead of Shooter.

Well, this ability has to be very strong, if it's going to make you let Shooter ability go.
I can't imagine anyone gives Shooter ability for undecent exchange.

Anyway, I think that it's important to keep atleast one shooter in your army.
And you get the same ability anyway, so you just have to pick; which one to upgrade to the regular upgrade, and which one to the alternative upgrade.

Stalker or Assassin
Well, what do we get for giving up the Shooter ability?
-Plus 1 minimum and maximum damage
-Plus 1 HP
-Plus 1 speed
-Plus 1 initiative
-Plus 2 attack
-Plus 1 defence
-The ability Invisibility

Well, we get a lot for that, and we don't even lose the Poisonous Attack.
I guess that it will be better to pick the Stalker, and to pick the Shadow Matriarch as a shooter.

Blood Witch or Blood Fury?
Advantages of the Blood Witch:
-Plus 1 maximum damage
-Plus 1 defence
-Plus 5 HP
-Immunity to Curses. Blindness, Weakness, Slow, etc, probably can't be casted on the Blood Witch.

Disadvantages of the Blood Witch:
-Minus 2 initiative
-Minus 1 minimum damage

Well, the high initiative is what makes the Blood Fury so strong, but it's usually cursed with Slow, that reduce her high initiative (or other dark spells). Dungeon has no Cleansing spell, and they have no way to dispell these spells.
Anyway, the Blood Witch has 21 HP (the highest for 2nd level creature, more than all the 2nd level tank-creatures!), and the ability Immunity to Curses. She has minus 2 initiative, but her 14 initiative (which is quite high) cannot be reduced by spells.
I would pick the Blood Witch.

Minotaur Captain or Minotaur Guard?
Advantages of the Minotaur Captain:
-Plus 1 minimum and maximum damage
-Plus 1 initiative
-Plus 5 HP
-Plus 1 attack
-Plus 3 defence
-Has the ability Aura of Bravery. Probably: For this creature and all friendly units located on tiles adjacent to it, morale is always positive (atleast +1).

Disadvantages of the Minotaur Captain:
-Doesn't have the ability Double Attack

Well, double attack is an extremely powerful ability. Its lose is quite huge.
There isn't lost of Bravery ability, because the Aura of Bravery probably affects also the Minotaur Captain (like the Aura of Magic Resistance affects also the Unicorn).
As a tank creature, giving morale to the creatures that the Minotaur Captain protects of, can be even better than the double attack.
The new ability and the extra status bonuses, including +5 HP, that makes Minotaur Captain's to 40 (which is extremely high), convince me to pick the Minotaur Captain.

Black Raider or Grim Raider:
Advantages of the Black Rider:
-Plus 2 attack
-Plus 1 iniative
-Has the ability Ride-by-Attack (I assume that it can attack one enemy in its way)

Disadvantages of the Black Rider:
-Minus 2 maximum damage
-Doesn't have the powerful ability Rider Charge

Well, if you assume that Ride-by-Attack ability is really what I think it is, I guess that Black Rider is stronger. The possibility to attack two creatures at once (one is your target, one in your way) is very powerful.
Eventhough Rider Charge (ingorance of 20% of the target's defence with each tile the rider walks to reach to the target) is very strong ability, attacking full damage on two creatures in one turn is stonger.

Acidic Hydra or Deep Hydra?
Advantages of the Acidic Hydra:
-Plus 1 initiative
-Has the ability Acid Blod

Disadvantages of the Acidic Hydra:
-Minus 1 defence
-Minus 2 minumum damage
-Doesn't have the ability Regeneration

Basicly, there isn't big difference. The huge HP amount, what does the Hydra to so strong tank-creature is the same, and so the Six-Headed Attack, No Retaliation and Enraged abilities.
The main difference is the new ability Acid Blood, that switches Reganaration.
I have a few guess what can Acid Blood ability be: "A creatures that kills the Acidic Hydra suffers a small damage/casted with Decay spell" "The creature ATB rate is higher after every attack", etc.
The ability Reganaration is very useful for the Deep Hydra, as a tank-creature with only 7 intiative, that the enemy avoids from hiting, since it plays rarely. Meanwhile, the Deep Hydra just heals itself.
Anyway, we'll have to know for sure what is Acid Blood ability, to decide which one to choose.

Shadow Mistress or Shadow Matriarch
Advantages of the Shadow Matriarch:
-Plus 3 minimum and maximum damage
-Plus 1 speed
-Plus 10 HP
-Plus 4 mana
-Plus 1 initiative
-Has the ability Invisibility

Disadvantages of the Shadow Matriarch:
-Doesn't have the ability shooter

In my opinion, the army needs atleast one shooter. It will be weak without any shooter.
I think that only this ability makes it worth to chose the Shadow Mistress.

Black Dragon or Red Dragon:
Advantages of the Red Dragon:
-Plus 1 initiative
-Costs only 3700 gold and 1 sulfer, like the Shadow Dragon!
-Has the ability Incinerate

Disadvantages of the Red Dragon:
-Minus 5 HP
-Minus 10 maximum damage
-Doesn't have the ability Immunity to Magic

According to what Ubisoft has advertised, the Red Dragon costs exactly like the Shadow dragon, 800 gold less than the Black Dragon. Up to now, all the alternative upgrades cost like the regular upgrades. Maybe it's a mistake, but let's assume it isn't.

Basicly, the Red Dragon is weaker than the Black Dragon, much cheaper, and has new ability, Incinerate. It's still very strong creature, maybe the second after the Black Dragon.
I guess the ability Incinerate gives extra fire damage to every attack of the dragon.
I will probably pick the Red Dragon. The Dungeon's army is very expansive. Such of cheap 7th level creature (comparatively to its power) might help a lot.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted May 23, 2007 12:09 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 12:11, 23 May 2007.

Look at rainbow dragon, it's also cheaper.

Either they are really the poor man's upgrades, or level7's global price has been cut (i'd enjoy this one, seriously.)


about shooters: shadow matriarch isn't too good as a shooter. It never scored good damage for me. It's more useful as a caster and tank. I wouldn't be so quick to say shooters are obligatory in this part of homm, too.

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Pomo
Pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted May 23, 2007 12:30 PM

Agree with Doomforge, Dungeon already didn't have any meaningful shooters.

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FireSpirit
FireSpirit


Famous Hero
with warm hands
posted May 23, 2007 12:37 PM

My guess is that Incinerate might burn the killed enemies so that they couldn't be resurrected or raised from the dead, much like the Disintegrate spell in Heroes 4.
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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted May 24, 2007 12:32 AM

balanced alt upgrades for both dungeon and sylvan in my opinion
(the black dragon is better - higher stats +magic immunity>>>>>incinerate which probably resembles ignition)
if they balance the renegades in the same way then it will be cool
since dark elves have a corrupted line-up thean I'm pretty sure Haven will have it too(can't wait to play with crossbowmen+fallen angels)

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 24, 2007 12:44 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 00:47, 24 May 2007.

Good thing about stalker is that at least Vayshan special will be worthwhile now. The same with minotaurs and Kytra. I just hope that Sorgal and Eurinas specialization will change coz they arent so good , esp Sorgals. I still hate their growth rate tho they should make it at least +1 at lvls 1-2.

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atma6
atma6

Tavern Dweller
posted May 24, 2007 04:35 AM

Stalkers beat out Assassins for general use, assuming invis is a good ability, but Assassins really beat out Stalkers for poison application. Assuming invis doesn't effect retaliation, the first enemy that the Stalker attacks which retaliates will cut its numbers reducing the further application of poison. Since Assassins are generally used only for poison, I think that this is a pretty balanced alternative.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 24, 2007 09:45 AM
Edited by alcibiades at 09:52, 24 May 2007.

Quote:
Well, the high initiative is what makes the Blood Fury so strong, but it's usually cursed with Slow, that reduce her high initiative (or other dark spells). Dungeon has no Cleansing spell, and they have no way to dispell these spells.

Anyway, the Blood Witch has 21 HP (the highest for 2nd level creature, more than all the 2nd level tank-creatures!), and the ability Immunity to Curses. She has minus 2 initiative, but her 14 initiative (which is quite high) cannot be reduced by spells.


I think this is a misinterpretation. Notice that the ability is called Immunity to Curse not Immunity to Curses. I think this reflects the general slackiness of the Nival team in sticking to the Heroes 3 spell names rather than the Heroes 5 ones (Stoneskine, Disrupting Ray, Curse, Bloodlust). Thus, the Blood Witch will most likely not be immune to Dark Magic in general, but only to the Weakness spell. The other thing would be overpowered anyway, and with its substantial damage range, this is no bad thing at all.

Quote:
Look at rainbow dragon, it's also cheaper.

Either they are really the poor man's upgrades, or level7's global price has been cut (i'd enjoy this one, seriously.)


I assumed the Rainbow Dragon price was a typo, but this seems to indicate that they are indeed cutting the prices of all the level 7 units. To assume that these two upgrades should be so much cheaper than the general level 7 price level seems unjustified, they are by no means substantially weaker than their alternatives, and the Rainbow Dragon is even cheaper than the Green Dragno, which is obviously non-sense.
____________
What will happen now?

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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted May 24, 2007 10:21 AM
Edited by watcher83 at 10:22, 24 May 2007.

the price of tier7 is going to be reduced, and for good reason, they were too expensive for their worth
I don't know about the rainbow dragon but I'm sure and time will proove me right that the red dragon is a bit weaker than the black dragon(see the explanation above on my other post)

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Stella
Stella


Adventuring Hero
Little girl with a BIG sword:)
posted May 24, 2007 10:44 AM
Edited by Stella at 10:53, 24 May 2007.

Quote:
Well, the high initiative is what makes the Blood Fury so strong, but it's usually cursed with Slow, that reduce her high initiative (or other dark spells). Dungeon has no Cleansing spell, and they have no way to dispell these spells.

-
-
-- Tho I know that USUALLY the Dungeon players don't go the Light magic way but THEY DO HAVE the skills for it AND even their mage guild has a chance that at each level the 3rd spell will be either a Light or Dark spell (Cause their base 2 elements are Destrucion AND Summoning).
-- And Cleansing is just a 2nd level spell so with some luck they might get it.
-- So they HAVE the potential to get the Cleansing spell but they usually go on the Destruction way... Unless I'm mistaken even without Light Magic you can learn the 2nd level spell - Cleansing but in that case it won't work all the time just around 40%.
____________
( )( )       __NEVER__
( ;.; ) /  argue with a
( " " )/      Lady!
  " " (OR mousie KILLS U!!)
DON'T underestimate MOUSIE!!

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dschingi
dschingi


Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
posted May 24, 2007 11:20 AM

To use Cleansing effectively, the Warlock needs Expert Light which is very hard to get for them. Even if they do get it, they only have a 50% chance to learn light spells from their mage guild, and only lvl 1-3 spells...
____________
open source for an open mind

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Stella
Stella


Adventuring Hero
Little girl with a BIG sword:)
posted May 24, 2007 12:02 PM

Quote:
To use Cleansing effectively, the Warlock needs Expert Light which is very hard to get for them. Even if they do get it, they only have a 50% chance to learn light spells from their mage guild, and only lvl 1-3 spells...

-
-
-- He he. We're saying the same thing. So we agree.
-- If the Warlock wants to use Light Magic-Cleansing effectively she/he needs to have Expert level. And I also said that their Magic guilds do NOT really support Light magic cause they only have 50% to get a Light Spell at each guild level.
____________
( )( )       __NEVER__
( ;.; ) /  argue with a
( " " )/      Lady!
  " " (OR mousie KILLS U!!)
DON'T underestimate MOUSIE!!

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FireSpirit
FireSpirit


Famous Hero
with warm hands
posted May 24, 2007 12:51 PM

Quote:
-- He he. We're saying the same thing. So we agree.
-- If the Warlock wants to use Light Magic-Cleansing effectively she/he needs to have Expert level. And I also said that their Magic guilds do NOT really support Light magic cause they only have 50% to get a Light Spell at each guild level.
There's actually a ZERO percent chance for 4th and 5th levels
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 24, 2007 01:07 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 13:09, 24 May 2007.

I wishg new matriarch had +1 to speed too, 5 is soo slow

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted May 24, 2007 03:11 PM

I want to this case is finally resolved:

We have 'Immunity to Curse' ability. I'd say it gives immunity to spell of Weakness. Why?

1. In charts we have codenames of spells, like Bloodlust - Righteous Might, Disrupting Ray - Vulnerability. 'Curse' is a word responsible for Wekanes spell. (I'm a modder, so I should know)

2. Immunity to all curses will be strongly overpowered (nah, maybe not with lvl 2 creature, but still). Imagine those new Furies with, for example Haste (Mass Haste perk form hero) and Righteous Might (Shadow Matriarchs), with not working dipell (see Inferno here) and no chace to cast oppose spell. Killing machine with hero spec. And probably boosted by Mino Captain increasing morale abiity.

3. Its not Curses (many) but one Curse.

My point of view. ^^

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 24, 2007 03:27 PM

Quote:
I wishg new matriarch had +1 to speed too, 5 is soo slow


New matriarch are front row units and they can reach enemies at the backrow in second turn anyway. Don't remember for sure but i think battle grib is 10 hex long and not 12. +1 Speed would be welcome ofcurse.

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dschingi
dschingi


Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
posted May 24, 2007 03:41 PM

Quote:
I wishg new matriarch had +1 to speed too, 5 is soo slow

Even more important: Make their move animation faster
At first view I'd agree with +1 speed since their other stats aren't so amazing... but I guess we can't decide for sure until we know what Invisibility does...
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open source for an open mind

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 24, 2007 04:08 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 16:13, 24 May 2007.

Quote:
Even more important: Make their move animation faster


hahah nooo they are soo sweet , especially new models

Yes 5 allows to reach enemies in 2 turns but all tactic moves are less likely, you need to charge at full distance and leave yourself vulnerable for all incomming attacks.Perhaps invisibility will help with this.

Also there would be a possibility for a first turn attack thanks to +1 speed and tactics. , in currrent situation +2 and tactics is almost not possible.

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted May 24, 2007 04:17 PM
Edited by radar at 16:17, 24 May 2007.

due to invisibility creature recives less damage from distant attacks

would sound logical if it was eeee... partly invisible? kind of blur from h4


but yes it can be!

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