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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Alternatives comparison
Thread: Alternatives comparison This thread is 23 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 19 20 21 22 23 · «PREV / NEXT»
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 27, 2009 09:29 AM

No they're not You can't be focusing on them most of the time - the hero has better things to do - and steels are barely hurt by magic anyway. Steels are instead self reliant with higher survivability.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted January 27, 2009 09:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:
If you're going to use Golems solely as "defensive" or "blocking" stacks, then Magnetics are still better than Steels.  Yes, they have lower defensive stats, but that's made up for by the fact that they can be rezzed at will, with no HP penalty.  Once steels are gone, they're gone-- unless repaired by Master Gremlins, which actually works better on Magnetics due to their lower HP.

Huh? Imo, Unlimited Retaliation and better hit points is better for Defence. And if you want to raise them, you need to have POWERFULL Destructive Magic (not that easy to get for Wizards imo). No, Steel Golems are overall better, point blank.

Quote:
Magnetics are completely immune to not just Slow, but ALL debuffs (and buffs, yes, but who really buffs Steels outside of mass spells anyway?) they receive NO direct spell damage ('cept First of Wrath and that from an Arcane Crystal explosion), and they also reduce (and with enough numbers, eliminate) AoE spell damage done by enemy spellcasters causing them to have to make somewhat more strategic decisions about where they lay their spells
Won't always work. Golems are Actually buffed a lot, but mainly through Mini-arties (a real must for the Wizard's army), as Light isn't a very desirable path to follow anyway. Besides, Steel Golems simply last a lot longer than Magnetics do, as practically non destructive faction blow them apart by Force anyway. Steels and already Magic Proof 75% AND are better on the Defence. Only real bad point is that you can cast Vulnerability on them, reducing their defence... but that's what you have Mini-arties for.
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broadstrong
broadstrong


Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
posted January 31, 2009 01:52 AM
Edited by broadstrong at 01:54, 31 Jan 2009.

Quote:

Magnetics are completely immune to not just Slow, but ALL debuffs (and buffs, yes, but who really buffs Steels outside of mass spells anyway?) they receive NO direct spell damage ('cept First of Wrath and that from an Arcane Crystal explosion), and they also reduce (and with enough numbers, eliminate) AoE spell damage done by enemy spellcasters causing them to have to make somewhat more strategic decisions about where they lay their spells.


Enchanted Armor is not a bad ability and Magnetism look very promising on paper, but in practice, how often will Magnetism come into play (except against many warlocks)?  Sure the wizard can deliberately cast Eldritch Arrow or Ice Bolt on the magnetics to resurrect them, but aren't there other things the wizard can do, and eventually more efficient (such as use Consume Artifact ability, cast Mark of the Wizard, or even basic attack to eliminate one enemy tier 7 creature)?

If I am facing enemy troops with magnetics, I would gladly NOT cast destructive spells, simply (even if the hero is a warlock with ALL the empowered spells).


When the alternate upgrades come out, a lot of attention has been given to these upgrades due to their new abilities, and most of them are deemed better than the base upgrade counterparts, which is something I do not quite agree with.  

The new abilities are for new and different play, sometimes meant for countering certain enemy factions (Magnetism is an example, quite clearly an effective anti-warlock ability).  New ways of playing does not mean the units are better.  For one, I am still not really convinced that Chanelling and Prismatic Breath are good (in fact I stated in my post I consider Prismatic Breath hyped, because in my games it just does not occur often).

Because I am more of a defensive player, perhaps I put some emphasis on countering tactics, that is why No Retaliation, Unlimited Retaliation and Magic-proof are good because they are less easy to  counter.

Anyway, with all the differing discussions, it shows that this game and HC is still very much alive and buzzing.  That is good!
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Arcax
Arcax


Promising
Famous Hero
Its quite hot inside...
posted January 31, 2009 12:37 PM

Quote:

Enchanted Armor is not a bad ability and Magnetism look very promising on paper, but in practice, how often will Magnetism come into play (except against many warlocks)?  Sure the wizard can deliberately cast Eldritch Arrow or Ice Bolt on the magnetics to resurrect them, but aren't there other things the wizard can do, and eventually more efficient (such as use Consume Artifact ability, cast Mark of the Wizard, or even basic attack to eliminate one enemy tier 7 creature)?



Just place your Magnetics in the  main core of your troops and Warlocks spells will be reduced. Its nice also vs Destro Runemages and combinated with Armageddon build.
Some clues about Magnets : Spells which can harm them : Fist of Wrath, Barrier, Crystal and Firetrap. And we cant cast non - area based spells on them  like Arrow, Implosion etc. Only area based spell will heal them or mirrored single-spells. Its also nice to send them into Firewall

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adon
adon


Known Hero
posted January 31, 2009 10:49 PM

Quote:
For one, I am still not really convinced that Chanelling and Prismatic Breath are good (in fact I stated in my post I consider Prismatic Breath hyped, because in my games it just does not occur often).



I agree with you that sometimes people declared the new upgrades were better simply because it was new, rather than actually looking at it.  For me I like the hydra attack of the war dancer over the defense boosting agility of the wind dancer, for my play style.

But I must take issue with your thinking that Chanelling is not good! Its one skill that has totally changed the way I use my Sylvan heroes, in that it makes them very effective spell casters where before they were mediocre or poor at best.  No other unit's skill really changed my playstyle this much...The addition of 10 or so SP to a hero is a huge boost, and from then on they play pretty much like druid elders just without lightning (which in mid to late game is not nearly as useful anyway).

Agree that its good we still have debate going about the alternatives!

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KANYENKYE
KANYENKYE

Tavern Dweller
posted February 16, 2009 01:16 PM

Ok people, 1 question:
The magnetic golem regenerates from destructive spells right? DESTRUCTIVE  
If spells like, Fist of Wrath or Bee Swarm or it steps on a land mine, (SUMMONING Spells) does it also regen hp?

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted February 16, 2009 03:46 PM

Quote:
Ok people, 1 question:
The magnetic golem regenerates from destructive spells right? DESTRUCTIVE  
If spells like, Fist of Wrath or Bee Swarm or it steps on a land mine, (SUMMONING Spells) does it also regen hp?


Golems are Immune to Wasp Swarm by Default (Magnetic or not). Crystal dishes out physical (read: NON-MAGICAL) damage, and DO harm Magnetics. Never tried Fist on them, since it sucks ****.
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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted February 16, 2009 04:27 PM

Firetrap and Fist of Wrath damages Magnetic Golems.
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KANYENKYE
KANYENKYE

Tavern Dweller
posted February 17, 2009 09:30 AM

My Necropolis alternatives review

Tier 1 Skeleton archers vs Skeleton warriors*

Let me explain: do you want a pile of bones that shoots and is bad at melee and has to be defended by something else? or do you want an awesome unit that can already protect the weakest and pnly shooter for the undead ,the lich? Skeleton warrior probably, most importantly can protect lich from ranged attacks and also packs a punch at melee.

Tier 2 Plague zombie vs Rot Zombie*

Rot gets a 2 hp advance and in my opinion aura is better than strike.

Tier 3 Spectre vs Poltergist*

Stats are a bit better and i dont care about -1 initiative. Drain mana is worse than steal ammo

Tier 4 Vampire Lords vs Vampire Princes*

I would rather get a chance to do double damage and put an enemy to sleep rather than no retaliation. Plus, they are the only necropolis unit who can actually attack without waiting for the enemy to advance.

Tier 5 Archliches* vs Lich Masters

Dont shout at me, I know, this one is a hard choice. But Lich Master has Raise Death and that, every necromancer has since the beginning of the game. Archliches have decay, and it actually deals damage and there is no guarrantee that the necromancer has that spell. Also, if you are lucky, Death Cloud can actually do something.

Tier 6 Wraith* vs Banshee

Banshee has much lower attack and defense (ok a 10hp upgrade but still...) And it wail isnt as good as harms touch.

Tier 7 Spectral Dragon* vs Ghost Dragon

Omg you actually wasted your resources on the dwelling?!?!
O.K I would rather have Cursing stare (Weakness with advanced mastery) and -1 morale for all creatures on the battlefield and a +1 defense than Sorrow on Basic level and +1 attack.

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted February 17, 2009 03:18 PM

Sorrow is cast on Expert Level with the 3.1 patch, making the Ghost Dragon better in most cases for me
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ZeroXcuses
ZeroXcuses


Known Hero
posted April 12, 2009 10:10 PM

Yeah, -1 Morale isn't much, but if you have that -2 ring and Howl, then maybe the penalties would add up to make a difference, but most Necroes don't take howl....

Expert sorrow sounds sexy. I'd make it count, too, because I expect my dragons to be as durable as blood furies.

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted April 12, 2009 10:19 PM

-3 to Morale and Luck is quite heavy but most factions can counter this:

Necro has no Morale, but Low luck can be painfull... Summoning and Dark compensate well enough though
Haven has High Morale by default and a good chance of Luck
Sylvan has High Luck and a pretty good chance of getting Leadership
Academy can have Luck and has Arties to counter this
Fortress... well Luck and Leadership are almost musts there
Dungeon: High Luck is almost imminent... Bad morale is a killer though, but High initiative counters this.
Stronghold: Leadership and Shatter Dark says enough.

Inferno is the only real faction that suffers from Expert Sorrow. Speaking for myself, I usually don't take Luck with Inferno, and Leadership is... well you know. Dungeon can suffer quite much too, and Warlock's luck is completely worthless with low luck.

However, Expert Sorrow is worth it on it's own, even if it's to eliminate the High Morale/Luck bonusses of Haven, Stronghold and Sylvan in particular.
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lucky_dwarf
lucky_dwarf


Promising
Supreme Hero
Visiting
posted April 13, 2009 12:27 AM
Edited by lucky_dwarf at 00:29, 13 Apr 2009.

Quote:
NECROPOLIS

TIER1 Skellie Archer vs. Skellie Warrior: The warrior is a great utility unit. When you get vitality and some extra skellies via necromancy, it becomes a potent basher; It also has shield allies and big shield, which works well when creeping heavy shooters.. and reducing the loses of arcane archers' fire. Archers offer little in comparison.

TIER2Plague Zombie vs. Rot Zombie - Rots are not only tougher, making them a better tank (and that's all they can do), but their special is also slightly better.

TIER3Spectres vs. poltergeists: The pink ghosts look a bit funny, but they are faster, tougher and stronger, making them obviously a better choice. Their ammo stealing special isn't the best thing to use, but it may be useful against arcane archers.. if you survive their first turn attack, that is.

TIER4 Vampire lords vs. Vampire Princes: Princes are much much better. With speed that allows them first turn strike, increased survivability and better special, they are quite an interesting unit.. since they cast blind spell when they attack, and it triggers quite often, I'd call them much more useful. Vamplords are a choice only at necro vs. necro games.

TIER5 Archliches vs. Lichmasters: tough decision. They are both horrible shooters, given that they are large units, incredibly easy to block, and they lack both no range and no melee penalty, meaning they do halved damage 99% of the time, but lichmasters are tougher and stronger in general. The lack of death cloud isn't that much of a problem; it never was too good in this part of HoMM. Also, while raise dead isn't the best spell to cast, it's certainly useful at times. Archliches still have decay, making them a better offensive unit overall, though. Take your pick, since it depends on situation.

TIER6 Banshees vs. Wraiths: is this some kind of joke? ~~ Banshees are really weak compared to wraiths, and their special is weak too. Wraiths lack specials, but they are at least strong damage dealers. Oh well.

TIER7 Spectrals vs. Horror Drags: If you manage to get their horde dwelling, they become quite good in damage in survivability, but come on, how often does that happen? ~~ Horrors are a bit better in damage, but without horde building, it's ridiculously low anyway, so it's all about specials.. well, -1 morale against all units sounds good, and basic sorrow at strike sounds good too. It really depends - against swift army, like Sylvan's, Death gaze seems better - you may not have the time to attack with horrors and get any benefit of their special in taht case. Against armies that depend on certain stacks (paladins, for instance), sorrow may prove better. It doesn't matter that much overall.


not sure if anyone mentioned this but from what i see necropolis could become a pretty good rusher if you could take bad initivative out of the picture(im assuming a rusher means someone who charges the enemy and is good at it)

Think about it. If your not going up against Sylvan its possible. Your lich master stays behind and casts healing spells while your vamp prince uses a strike and return tactic against the biggest n' meanest dmg dealer(Executioner for example) and the rot zombie denies entry to a large monster(Paladins for example). Skelie warriors can handle the t1-t3 by bashing away at them and alternate to bashing other trouble makers. Ghost Dragon can be used same as rot zombie to block passage. Finally poltergeists swoop down on the unprotected shooters/casters while the Wraith can go behind everyone  and fill gaps/ take care of the flying guys that try to flank you.

Im not sure if its a sound plan but does it at least sound worth trying?
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 13, 2009 01:07 AM

Quote:
-3 to Morale and Luck is quite heavy but most factions can counter this:

Necro has no Morale, but Low luck can be painfull... Summoning and Dark compensate well enough though
Haven has High Morale by default and a good chance of Luck
Sylvan has High Luck and a pretty good chance of getting Leadership
Academy can have Luck and has Arties to counter this
Fortress... well Luck and Leadership are almost musts there
Dungeon: High Luck is almost imminent... Bad morale is a killer though, but High initiative counters this.
Stronghold: Leadership and Shatter Dark says enough.

Inferno is the only real faction that suffers from Expert Sorrow. Speaking for myself, I usually don't take Luck with Inferno, and Leadership is... well you know. Dungeon can suffer quite much too, and Warlock's luck is completely worthless with low luck.

However, Expert Sorrow is worth it on it's own, even if it's to eliminate the High Morale/Luck bonusses of Haven, Stronghold and Sylvan in particular.


Having high Leadership or Luck isn't a counter for Expert Sorrow... it just means you don't benefit from your bonuses that you invested skills in. It's the exact same effect. In fact there's a good chance it's worse because if you have leadership it's probable that you have empathy and/or retribution, so losing morale would be worse for those that have leadership than for those that don't.

And Expert Sorrow on units doesn't affect the hero's luck, so Warlock's Luck would be just as good as always.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 13, 2009 01:48 AM

@lucky dwarf
A good charger is one who has high initiative, high damage and high speed. Necro has none of these, only high defense to preserve its units as they slowly crawl towards the opponent. Which is rarely the case because if you are a good necro player you'll let the opponent come to you instead. There is no strike and return with 11 initiative nor can you expect skeleton warriors to go around bashing things like no tomorrow. You just try to outlast your opponents, taking the initiative is rare and can leave you open. Or rather it's not your highest priority, you will only do that when the opponent is weakened sufficiently.
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lucky_dwarf
lucky_dwarf


Promising
Supreme Hero
Visiting
posted April 13, 2009 02:48 AM

damn
well its something  i wont try vs arcax
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broadstrong
broadstrong


Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
posted June 22, 2009 04:32 PM

Necropolis is not exactly suited for rushes and quick strikes, which is why I felt that Vampire Princes are not that ideal for using, unless you can control the urge to charge forward and strike an enemy power unit with Torpor.

No point attacking with a good unit, only to find it w/o support.  Most armies don't win becoz of one stack of powerful creatures, but by teamwork and synergy.
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lumpor
lumpor


Adventuring Hero
posted June 23, 2009 03:08 PM

I don't understand how deep hydras can be preffered to the other ones. you have 5 hydras? Regeneration is great! You have 100 hydras? Suddenly 30-50 life per turn isn't that much anymore. Acid blood however scales with increasing stack size.

I think minotaur guards are better than taskmasters simply because double attack triggers lizard bite twice. The minotaur's own damage is negligible.
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broadstrong
broadstrong


Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
posted June 24, 2009 02:47 AM
Edited by broadstrong at 02:47, 24 Jun 2009.

Quote:
I don't understand how deep hydras can be preffered to the other ones. you have 5 hydras? Regeneration is great! You have 100 hydras? Suddenly 30-50 life per turn isn't that much anymore. Acid blood however scales with increasing stack size.


Dungeon troops are expensive, any form of troop conservation is always welcome.  Regeneration is one fine example.
Foul hydras would be good if they can be teleported to enemy lines (especially behind castle walls), but how often do you see a warlock having even Light Magic (let alone Expert level and the teleportation spell)?  Besides the acid blood strength is, in practice, really weak, and savvy players should know that attacking a huge hydra stack with their own troops around it is a big no-no.

Quote:
I think minotaur guards are better than taskmasters simply because double attack triggers lizard bite twice. The minotaur's own damage is negligible.


Apart from triggering the lizard bite twice (which hardly occurs because the guards are too slow, I would rather use furies or sisters to increase the frequency of lizard bites) and the potentially useful double-strike, guards pale in comparison to taskmasters.  

Their growth rate is already low enough, so troop conservation is also important (in late games, the super destructive spells generally still lose out to the might and power of the might factions, so there should be some quantity in troops also as this also increases the elemental damage due to elemental vision).  
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 24, 2009 08:20 AM

You must be kidding? You always attack the hydras when you get your chance, you never know if you will have the strength to finish them off after a couple of spells. Unless you had a truly pathetic defense ofc but wasting a turn to give the opponent the hydras on a silver plate is strategically incorrect. Minos are walking hp and minotaur guards suck. There you have it
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