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| Thread: What's wrong in Belgium... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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DagothGares
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posted July 20, 2009 12:26 PM |
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They get money without doing anything. Speak the national language!!!
Pretty much the fault in a socialist system. Stop voting for the socialists or christian-democrats if you don't like these measures. 
And what is the national language?
Belgium is trilingual, after all. So what? They either have to speak one language or all languages. Now, I know for a fact no one speaks dutch themselves, despite what they may claim (seriously, these dialects are getting out of control). So that leaves either french or German. I mean, 100,000 people speak German in belgium (more or less) and they even have their own government. In the end: it's a stupid measure, since we have three languages in Belgium and someone who speaks German actually doesn't speak our language may get in and a foreigner who learned dutch has high chances of not understanding most of the "dutch-speaking" populace, here.
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2different cultures cant exist in one country
Hooray for openmindedness and multicultural society, then...
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the same with languages
Yes, belgium is the only country that speaks two languages 
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From now on I will call everyone who is flemish-minded "Klauwaert"
and every waloon-minded person "Leliaert"
This war has already been fought in 1302, but with real weapons and Flanders came out of that war INDEPENDENT
Oh, yeah, let's stay in the medieval ties. you're interested in history? look it up: the eighty year war.
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Just remember, if the Flemish would have wanted, they could have conquered france itself, but all they wanted was to be independent.
You seriously believe this?
The battle of the golden spurs was a fight where about 10,000 flemsih peasants were capable of defeating 6,000 French knights. Whoopty-friggin-doo, they had piked weapons and a terrain advantage as well. Sure it was grundbreaking in the fact that infantry managed to beat a cavalry force, but that's about it. And it was not Flanders that fought, it were the city states, like Antwerp and Brugges.
The city states had a powerful navy, because our region had many rivers, like de Schelde, etc. and you can romanticise what you want, but the battle of the golden spurs was essentially a conflict between the duke of... (Antwerp?) and the king of France. Should you equal the walloons to france, then you have a rather faulty interpretation of belgian (and western european for that matter) history. Even more so, this conflict was a feudal one to be precise, sort of a struggle for dominion and it has no relevance in today's society. what is much more relevant in understanding today's relations to eachother is the eighty year war, but flemish nationalists don't really like too look at that war, bevause their black and white thinking makes it seem like their ancestors were LOSERS!
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jormungand
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The Hammer of Hate
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posted July 20, 2009 01:34 PM |
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-The Flemish dialect is almost a language on itself
-only country with 2different national languages hmm... Why is that It's screwed! Just split it... The Waloons can have Albert II
-Eighty years war (waaw), mainly between spain and flanders/netherland.
I didnt know that spain is belonging to france...
-guess whats between Brugges and Antwerp...Flanders(except Limburg,wich used to be dutch)
-Walonie used to belong to france
-Its every waloon's wet dream to join france
-The Flemish army won many more battles against france to free the area between Brugges and Antwerp(Flanders) of the french army.
-You're a Leliaert.
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Gods of war I call you, my sword is by my side.
I seek a life of honor, free from all false pride.
I will crack the whip with a bold mighty hail.
Cover me with death if I should ever fail.
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DagothGares
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posted July 20, 2009 01:52 PM |
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Walonie used to belong to france
No, the walloons were originally part of Flanders 
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Its every waloon's wet dream to join france
This is distasteful.
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You're a Leliaert.
And you're my enemy!
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The Flemish army won many more battles against france to free the area between Brugges and Antwerp(Flanders) of the french army.
There were the "brugse metten" and the battle of the golden spurs. Both weren't feats of a grand army, they were small scale skirmishes and assassinations.
Most medieval wars were that, but anyway, if the flemish had a remote possibility to take over France, they definitely would've expanded their fiefs further down (the fiefdom of Flanders used to have the walloons in them, as I said earlier)
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Eighty years war (waaw), mainly between spain and flanders/netherland.
I didnt know that spain is belonging to france...
that's all you can say? the eighty year war (and it's precursors) is instrumental to understanding how our territory is as it is, why we are independent from the Netherlands, how come the territory is divided the way it is, (oh, and later wars will explain why Germany had to surrnder territory to us; but meh) how come Belgium is a catholic nation. 1302 is a medieval struggle over territory. The eighty year war was rather similar with the difference it was an ideological struggle as well and it sets the cultural boundaries that will directly influence the origin of belgium 200 years later.
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only country with 2different national languages hmm.
okay... Apparently, we can't see irony...
UK has several languages in it, uncluding gaelish (no one speaks that, I know, but SHATAP!) and welsh. China has two languages...
Finland has two languages. the former USSR has many different languages, but since that's a bad example, Canada is bilingual as well.
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The Flemish dialect is almost a language on itself
No it isn't.
To quote my dutch teacher: "Wij hangen nog vast aan feitelijk middeleeuwse praktijken: ieder gehucht in Vlaanderen spreekt een ander dialect."
"we're actually clinging to medieval practices: every hovel in flanders speaks a different dialect."
In this aspect, the netherlands are far better than us, because they maintained one language. I suppose this is also why the dutch have many more writers and are more eloquent than us... Though 90% f what they say is BS
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guess whats between Brugges and Antwerp...Flanders
Guess who didn't fight? the places between Brugges and Antwerp... Flanders!
It was a conflict of city states. To say it in dutch: "Stadstaten, het was een conflict tussen enkele rijke Vlaamse steden en de koning van Frankrijk, leenheer tegen leenman."
"City states, it was a conflict between some rich Flemish cities and the king of france, feudal lord against serf."
The region of flanders was rich enough at the time to form city states, hence the ability to rise up against a feudal lord. If you think any higher ideals were involved or even something as a langauge barrier... You're dead wrong. In 1302, Dutch barely existed.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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jormungand
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The Hammer of Hate
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posted July 20, 2009 03:18 PM |
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In the same order:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/flanders%201302/RasKuralka/batlleofthegoldenspurs2.jpg
I know its not a real map, but its roughly right
YAWN ok true a small part of wallonie, but all of Flanders except Limburg
This is the truth and nothing but the truth
Thank you that means you're calling me a Klauwaert
No really I mean it, look it up if you want too, but Flanders won shortly after the Guldensporenslag many battles(lost a few but won the major part).
BTW: Are you calling a battle with more then 16000 men a skirmish???
If you do, you're going to be the world's greatest warlord.
But still, what has france to do with it??
You said we were the only country with 2 different languages...
If a Flemish goes to wallonie he must speak french, If a Waloon goes to Flanders he will speak french. Why is that? Dont say that isnt true, because it is true.
I said almost.
"Da e juust" --> meaning "thats right" in my dialect
Because thats flemish dialect and even you cant speak decent dutch.
You say it, "stadstaten" what was flanders in that time?
The flemish were being suppressed by the french, you cant deny it.
Even if the serf wanted more land and stuff like that, who cares? he freed his people from the french and thats about it.
BTW: Army of peasants, those peasants werent forced in duty, they followed their lord until Flanders was freed. True or not?
And stop yawning about the eighty years war, because the french or waloons had not much to do with it.
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Gods of war I call you, my sword is by my side.
I seek a life of honor, free from all false pride.
I will crack the whip with a bold mighty hail.
Cover me with death if I should ever fail.
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted July 20, 2009 03:28 PM |
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-2different cultures cant exist in one country
How many different cultures are there in the USA?
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-the same with languages
Greetings to switzerland, italy, turkey....
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about quote wars
From now on I will call everyone who is flemish-minded "Klauwaert"
and every waloon-minded person "Leliaert"
Carefull...!
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With this i dont say kill every waloon-minded-people, but if the Flemish would rise again, they would be independent oncemore
Rise out of what?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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jormungand
Adventuring Hero
The Hammer of Hate
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posted July 20, 2009 03:42 PM |
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In same order:
I meant major difference in culture
I already answered this
Why? That's not offending!
Out of what? Out of Belgium of course!
I learned in history lesson(from a SPA-minded teacher) that 2different cultures and languages in one country will make the country split.
I answered something but you can already guess what right?
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Gods of war I call you, my sword is by my side.
I seek a life of honor, free from all false pride.
I will crack the whip with a bold mighty hail.
Cover me with death if I should ever fail.
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted July 20, 2009 03:57 PM |
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In same order:
I meant major difference in culture
So you think the 2 different "cultures" in belgium have less in common than latinos, chinese, blacks and whites in the USA?.....tststs
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Out of what? Out of Belgium of course!
With what army? 150 pikers?
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I learned in history lesson(from a SPA-minded teacher) that 2different cultures and languages in one country will make the country split.
I answered something but you can already guess what right?
Does your great teacher have any examples which underline his statement?
There are a bunch full of examples which show the opposit...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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jormungand
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The Hammer of Hate
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posted July 20, 2009 04:50 PM |
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Sorry if i offended any americans with this, but i mean different culture AND different language. Flemish tax money is going to walonia and if you see madame NON, her accompagnons and their ideas, you'll agree with me.
Am i talking about an army? I say with manner of speaking... you clearly misunderstood that part.
Its in our history-book (imo this book is very  SPA-minded too)
After i said that something, he said 'deruit', wich means in relatively rough way 'leave the classroom'
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Gods of war I call you, my sword is by my side.
I seek a life of honor, free from all false pride.
I will crack the whip with a bold mighty hail.
Cover me with death if I should ever fail.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted July 20, 2009 05:17 PM |
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Thank you that means you're calling me a Klauwaert
This is rather childish black and white thinking. Any mods watching, this isn't really an insult. It's a reference to two family trees of the french and flemsih nobility... blah.
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Are you calling a battle with more then 16000 men a skirmish???
That was a battle, the subsequent ones were skirmishes, though...
This is a no true scotsman argument, anyway.
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You said we were the only country with 2 different languages...
If a Flemish goes to wallonie he must speak french, If a Waloon goes to Flanders he will speak french. Why is that? Dont say that isnt true, because it is true.
It's called irony, man!
And of course you speak the language of the region you're in, that's normal.
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"Da e juust" --> meaning "thats right" in my dialect
Because thats flemish dialect and even you cant speak decent dutch.
I take diction ad theatre classes. My pronunciation beats roughly 95% of flanders and that is not idle speculation, that is fact. You might say:
da es juust!
but you'd spell:
Dat is juist!
a man from Antwerp would say:
Das just!
That's not Flemish, it's Antwerp, or Ghent or Brusselian or w/e
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You say it, "stadstaten" what was flanders in that time?
Not a city state, because Flanders isn't a city, you bontz!
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The flemish were being suppressed by the french, you cant deny it.
Everyone was suppressed by their feudal lord... It's called the feudal age for a reason. In dutch: "Iedereen gehoorzaamt zijn leenheer. dat was zo in die tijd."
"Everyone obeys their feudal lord. Those were the middle ages after all."
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he freed his people from the french and thats about it.
So they could serve him, instead of the king... Wait... who are we talking about? the duke who was captured by the french? I think his people freed him from the french.
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Army of peasants, those peasants werent forced in duty, they followed their lord until Flanders was freed. True or not?
Look at my above statement.
Oh, and the fact there was an army of knights on the outskirts of their city helped a little of course, but it was UNDYING LOYALTY first!
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And stop yawning about the eighty years war, because the french or waloons had not much to do with it.
I see... you only want to rip on the french...
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jormungand
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posted July 20, 2009 06:49 PM |
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In same order:
Me neither, but i prefer being a Klauwaert...(meaning Flemish-minded)
Do i care about scotsman arguments?
ok then it was irony, so what?
But you didnt answer my question...
I didnt know that, but ok 95%or more of the Flemish people cant speak decent dutch without starting to laugh
city STATE isnt the same as city
Yes ok his people(the Flemish) freed him and themself of the french... (but without his strategies they wouldnt have won)
Not loyalty, but they wanted a country of their own. If it would have been loyalty then france would have been butchered, because their army was shattered.
And again they have won large battles after the guldensporenslag, not skirmishes.
Hey, this discussion is about Waloons and Flemish, not about the spanish.
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Gods of war I call you, my sword is by my side.
I seek a life of honor, free from all false pride.
I will crack the whip with a bold mighty hail.
Cover me with death if I should ever fail.
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DagothGares
Responsible
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No gods or kings
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posted July 20, 2009 06:58 PM |
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city STATE isnt the same as city
Okay, I might have given you too much credit.
A city state is an independent city.
Hong Kong is a city state, Athens, Corinth and Sparta in ancient times were city states.
So Flanders can't possibly have been a city state.
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but without his strategies they wouldnt have won
He was in prison!
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but they wanted a country of their own to conduct free trade.
Fixed it for you. They wanted to conduct trade (do what people do in cities) in a free manner without strict regulations or taxes from a king. Not the french king, ANY KING!
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because their army was shattered.
Not really...
I admit that the knights were among the top of the french army, but if you think all the french had were 6000 cavalrists, then maybe you should guess again. A nation's army was usually around 10 times bigger.
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Hey, this discussion is about Waloons and Flemish, not about the spanish.
Read up about Chales V-VII and Filips de schone, then we'll talk more. They had much more to do with how belgium is now, then the symbolical conflict of 1302.
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And again they have won large battles after the guldensporenslag, not skirmishes.
I honestly doubt that, because the city states had their win already.
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jormungand
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The Hammer of Hate
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posted July 20, 2009 07:27 PM |
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in same order:
2city states(brugges+antwerp) were as big as Flanders...(isnt big) Milan was also a city state and had a large territory around it as any city state...
Ah thats right you were talking about that duke i was talking about the leader of the Flemish army (the one who united the peasants)
Thats independence
Yes but it was too shattered to pose any danger to an invading army of Flemish(if they would invade)
Yes filips de schone indeed, he raised taxes, thats why flanders became angry and wanted no more french in their land.(we are still the unmatched kings of evading taxes muhaha)
bigger battles even then the guldensporenslag, read the last pages(before the notes) of H. Conscience's book(new version).
It's all about real fought battles and they give real numbers.(I first didnt believe it, but i've even looked up some battles and it's true what's in those last pages)
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Gods of war I call you, my sword is by my side.
I seek a life of honor, free from all false pride.
I will crack the whip with a bold mighty hail.
Cover me with death if I should ever fail.
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted July 31, 2009 12:18 PM |
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Jormungand,
You often refer to our recent history and heritage, but things are a little more complex than you present them. Also, the actual historical facts about our past have been used and romanticized by Belgian and Flemish nationalists during the last 2 centuries. For instance a large part of the "Flemish Army" in the battle of the golden spurs was composed out of Walloons! Check your facts before making dangerous assumptions about our cultural identity.
I also have the feeling that you're not putting things into perspective. There are little more than 6 million Flemish people. There are over 6 billion people on the globe, 460 million on our subcontinent. Slowly we're growing towards a more unified Europe. Now what relevance would splitting Belgium have within the unity of Europe?
Personally I think the whole communotarian discussion is a massive waste of time, energy and taxmoney. The rediculous matter about electively splitting Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde has cost millions of euro's, and to what avail? There are much more important matters to attend to, not to mention the impact of the financial crisis, which could have been milder if politicians had focused on the economy, rather than on communotarian themes.
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sphere
Supreme Hero
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posted July 31, 2009 12:47 PM |
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.. Slowly we're growing towards a more unified Europe..
Welcome back, Niddy
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Who is this General Failure, and why is he looking at my disk ?
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Lexxan
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Unimpressed by your logic
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posted July 31, 2009 11:13 PM |
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@ Nidhgrin:
I myself do not share your beliefs or Ideas, but in essence you are correct. Flemish nobility was, and still is to a large extend, Francophone. Not suprisingly with names like Guy of DAMPIERRE and Robert of BÉTHUNE. The Flemish footfolk, as you have forsaken to tell, spoke a variant of Modern Flemish (in essence the same). The Majority of People who fought at the Battle of Courtrai (aka Golden Spurs or Groeningenkouter) was NEERLANDOPHONE. (spoke Dutch).
just pointing out.
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Personally I think the whole communotarian discussion is a massive waste of time, energy and taxmoney. The rediculous matter about electively splitting Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde has cost millions of euro's, and to what avail? There are much more important matters to attend to, not to mention the impact of the financial crisis, which could have been milder if politicians had focused on the economy, rather than on communotarian themes.
BHV must be split for Justice's sake. It's in the law to have it split, and it's our (Flanders') best interest. No splitting it is unfair. Besides, the reason why all this effort, labor and money was "wasted" on BHV, was because the WALLOONS always want the get the biggest peice of the pie. BHV has little importance, I agree, but is a fine example of the Down-rotten mentality behind the dentegrating vehicle that is Belgium.
You say that Economical Problems are more important than the Communotairy ones. To an extend, I agree. However, the Conflicts on Social and Communotairy Levels also spread to Economical level as well. Don't forget that Flanders supports both Wallonia and Brussels, to a point where Flanders itself gains large debts. The Economical problems due to the Financial Crisis are enhanced by Walloon Arrogance and Imperials (but also by Flemish Stubbornness).
@ Jormundgand: Sorry to say, but your posts show little truths or wisdom. Please, before posting, look up the FACTS, and not just your TOUGHTS.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Nidhgrin
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baking cookies from stardust
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posted August 01, 2009 10:36 AM |
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Hey Sphere! Thanks for the welcome back
I surf in every now or then, but read more than post due to lack of time. Still good to see so many familiar faces!
Lexxan,
You're right, only 5 or 6% of the "Flemish" army consisted out of Walloons. Still, in the early days of Belgium's existance, it was used to spark a Belgian national feeling.
BHV has become a symbolic file, so I can understand its importancy for people who devote effort to the Flemish cause.
Even so, if the Walloons agree with splitting in the end, concessions will have to be made.
The Flamingants will have to make sure that the consequences of solving the problem don't turn out worse than the problem itself.
Substantial financial flows go from Flanders to Wallonia, Brussels and Europe. I could agree with more supervision on how these funds are used, to a level that corresponds with the size of the financial flows. If the transactions would be monitored in more detail, I believe it would increase transparancy, and after a while increase efficiency. Data obtained from monitoring could prove (or disprove) that too much money is transferred or that it is being spent inefficiently. But it would be dangerous to shrink or stop the financial flows without knowing what the impact would be.
In a system where multiple communities coexist you need solidarity. In Germany for instance, you see the same flows appear between West- and East. Europe spends more money on "problem areas" as well. Honestly I don't understand what could be wrong with that, our whole system is built on solidarity. It's what makes it so much different from the system in the US for instance.
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antipaladin
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posted August 02, 2009 09:29 PM |
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kosovo 2.
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types in obscure english
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted August 02, 2009 10:54 PM |
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In a system where multiple communities coexist you need solidarity. In Germany for instance, you see the same flows appear between West- and East.
Wrong example. East-Germans and West-Germans are culturally and ethnographically identical (or rather almost). Flemings and Walloons are too different, not per se in culture, but in Mentality, they differ greatly. Anyway, Economic Help is imo something that is deserved, rather than Granted. I would have supported the Cash flow, if Wallonia didn't put at least half of it in it's own pocket (corruption), or showed some gratitude at least. It's the Integrity of the (vast majority of the) Walloon politicians: they don't have any. And sorry, but I refuse to support the swagger and escapades of Corrupt politicians. To top it all, the Corruption is not ceasing. The fact that all these scandals keep popping up (most of which involve the PS) does not mean that it's ending; On the contrairy, it means that it becomes too much to keep it all uncovered!
You seem like an intelligent person, and I know you understand my feelings about the case. I will donate for the bad reason. If the Walloon Economy boomed of our funds, it would have been different: They would have been out of their current (perpetual) Economic Fissure, Flanders would not have had to donate as much as as it done untill now, and, most importantly, the Country would not have fallen apart (or rather, it would not fall apart within the next 20 years, something I'd bet WILL happen).
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Europe spends more money on "problem areas" as well. Honestly I don't understand what could be wrong with that, our whole system is built on solidarity. It's what makes it so much different from the system in the US for instance.
Wallonia is not considered a "Problem Area": It's not Bulgaria, Romania, Kosovo, Kurdistan, or the like.
and to end this post, the Solidarity's true weakness, is that it has to come from BOTH sides. One side Donates, and the other uses the money for it's Proper use (and not letting it's leaders pocket it personally). Also, there must be respect from both sides. Solidarity has no problem with the donator. If problems ensue, it's ALWAYS the side of the Donated. Corruption, Ingratitude, Arrogance, you name it. And if the Donator just accepts this, and keeps donating, (like an over-eager gambler who keeps putting coins in a gambling machine, on an eternal losing streak), the biggest weakness of solidarity is laid bare: the donated can choose to be gratefull or not, and if the donator is not backboned, it's likely to choose the latter.
This is what happening here between Flanders and Wallonia. Flanders is solidair with Wallonia, and gives them a significant amount of money, and in return, the majority of the money is pocketed by corrupt ministers, ministers that keep demanding more, as if we are the personal slaves. I'm not suprised that Flamigancy is rising. People are just sick of it..
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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antipaladin
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posted August 03, 2009 11:55 PM |
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let me get this streigth:
In beliguim there are 2 prime nationalitys "franch" and "dutch". they dislike each other and the "dutch" want to disincage from the "french"
Flanders-dutch,flemmish-franch,wallooniens-?!
i mean if thats what going on with ministers,strike,riot..but isent that a little kosovo?
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Lexxan
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posted August 04, 2009 12:08 AM |
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In beliguim there are 2 prime nationalitys "franch" and "dutch". they dislike each other and the "dutch" want to disincage from the "french"
Alas, it is more complex. You have Flemings, Walloons, Bruxcellois and German, and then we don't count the significant ethnic minorities: Turks, Morroccans, Congolese, Italians, Dutch etc.
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Flanders-dutch,flemmish-franch,wallooniens-?!
No no.
It's more like: Flemings ~ Germans (language equals Dutch, but mentality is Germanic)
Walloon = French (culture is simply equal)
Bruxcellois = Mixing pot of all previous and current (native) cultures: Flemish, French, Brabander, Hainaut, Liegois, etc...
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i mean if thats what going on with ministers,strike,riot..but isent that a little kosovo?
Definately not. Autonomy is desired by some, but don't forget: not even half of all Flemings support an Independant Flanders by themselves. Not even a Quarter does. (most people just want to get rid of the current system, which is completely rotten; I am one of these people). There are no demonstrations or riots. Wallonia is, I repeat, on the recieving end, and, (I don't think I mentionned it yet) Walloon arrogance and provocation is mostly very subtle. You do have to pay attention to notice it, but it is there. Most people don't notice it. This is quite unlike Kosovo, where a whole ethnic minority, united in a Cultural and Social debate.
In Belgium, the whole problem has, too, errupted from a Social background, but the Cultural aspect is nearly negligable; Although mentalities between Flemish and Walloons differ greatly, (Germanic vs Frankish) Culture does not. In fact, the Culture in Northern France (Lille, Cambrai, Arras, Valenciennes) equals those in Western and Eastern Flanders (the provinces, around Bruges and Ghent). Flanders itself has two cultures, being Flemish in the west and Brabander in the east (Antwerp, Mechelen, Hasselt), and Flamigancy is becoming stronger in both parts of Flanders.
So, in short, the conflict is mostly Socially and Econimically than it is Culturally. Not llike Kosovo.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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