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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Heroes of Might & Magic III: Horn of the Abyss
Thread: Heroes of Might & Magic III: Horn of the Abyss [ This thread is 99 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 (30) 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 ]
Sav
Sav


Adventuring Hero
posted April 30, 2012 08:05 AM
Edited by Sav at 08:57, 30 Apr 2012.

It means hundreds of code patches that replace original adresses with new ones must be remaked as hooks that call the second procrdure? It`s very hard work,
I think.

In fact not so many plugins redirect blocks of heroes data, I think it won`t be the most common compatibility problem. But HotA has a huge amount of patches including not yet replaced dynamic patches in different parts of H3 code that implement creatures, heroes, buildings abilities and secondary improvements and can cause incompatibility.

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blueskirt
blueskirt


Adventuring Hero
posted April 30, 2012 09:48 AM

It's free as in it's released as freeware, you won't have to pay a buck to enjoy the expansion. That's how I always understood it.

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majaczek
majaczek


Famous Hero
Work at Magic Dimmension
posted April 30, 2012 10:40 AM
Edited by majaczek at 10:57, 30 Apr 2012.

Sav, just split duties. HoTA adds new creatures? Amethyst plugin already do that. If you clone duty no person can use HoTA with amethyst (I say about future HoTA for ERA). So use Amethyst for this Purporse. Amethyst is not enough for the feature? So contribute to Amethyst plugin - Then use it. This is how work ERA community which is free community. Where source code isn't able to be availble, there's availble documented API, or documentation of part of original H3 engine/TE engine used as base. If you move to ERA and didn't give at least a bit of freedom it will be fail. Perhaps you (HoTA team) still want to some features of HoTA to be propertial, but not ensure conflict on features already open in ERA (Amethyst.dll add configuration file for changing crerature limits, allows to modify creature config for further creatures, and give engine patches to support it). So for example agree that Amethyst is already free, and if you need similair features just contribute to it and use it.

The suggestion I given Bersy is mostly for data tables, rather than for code. For example there are tables for H3 engine feature of hardcoded buildings (both in Town hall and city screen). Most of them are already known. HoTA definately have to move these tables to work (it wouldn't fit there if it would be 10 or more towns), so the HoTA plugin for ERA for supporting more towns (eg. cove town as 10th town) should inform ERA from where it were moved and to where, to ensure all plugins and scripts which refer to these tables can poll ERA by original pointer, to achieve already used pointer as working with old pointers would not work without it. It's just compability, more substantial thing than freedom of changing mechanism - is just freedom of USING mechanism. Whole table would be claimed at once (you would give old begin, old size, new begin). Code hooks rarely needs to be claimed as used to ensure compability, but are crucial if some mods/plugins hooks the same part of engine (which bridge mode ERA hooks support). So it's better to use it, and if you managed to change the code, porting it to hooker function is trivial. Simple patches for memory don't have to be registered as hooks/tables and are just provided as bin file - these ones mostly changes constants in engine code (numbers, strings, pointers) or rarely do trivial code modification (such as NOP patching fragment of code). Bin format from Binmagic is simple so more complicated changes using it is tedious, and should be subject for hooking.

In short if you want move to ERA you perhaps still can retain propertiary character of HoTA, but you are not allowed to enslave ERA users/modders by hiding/making not compatible the things which are already free (3.5 of 4 mentioned points). Since ERA modders are liberating more and more features - you need slowly free some of your work. If you already want to free new feature (the one not yed liberated in a moment), you just have to provide API (configuration files, plugin procedures), and say "you can use it" - you are not forced to help modders on this, even more if further using request further changes in engine code (so for example if you want you can liberate a feature of moving town-related-table and changing it, you should provide an plugin function or text file where you can provide new limit, and be sure your code is mostly compatible with new limts. Config files for content of new table entries are hgihly welcomed but not so crucial since a modder can make a plugin compatible with yours, once he/she can check the config). The "it will be hard to mantain modders needs if we free part of HoTA" is not excuse for not freeing since it is invalid (you are not forced to support things more, if you help modder it is just nice from your side - API, config files, and simple readme how to use them is really enough). It's still up to you to make SOME features propertiary, since ERA licence is not as strict on freedom as GPL one.

EDIT:
@blueskirt
not only money is method of paying. Adware for example is not really a freeware. Free software give freedom on software, freeware give freedom on only using the software for free. If some software makes user pay anything for using it - it is not even freeware - so purporsely doing incompabilities to ERA (once it would be ERA plugin), would not even be right to be called freeware (you would need to pay for use of HoTA, even more than just a few bucks, since people pay much for time or priviledges). HoTA would be more free if you sell the changes with API and sourcecode to H3 modding community ethernally and with future all ways of freedom gaining 1000$ on kickstarter, than just making it propertiary addon without wanting even a few bucks from them. I'm sure you would gain ever more on kickstarter, so you actually are more expensive than free but sponsored software.

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p4e4c
p4e4c


Adventuring Hero
posted April 30, 2012 12:20 PM
Edited by p4e4c at 12:20, 30 Apr 2012.

How can you write so many things every single time!
- and barely say anything -_-
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SquigPie
SquigPie


Adventuring Hero
posted April 30, 2012 12:27 PM

Quote:
How can you write so many things every single time!
- and barely say anything -_-


Well, I suppose he's russian, and we all know how famous russian literature is for being wordy.

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p4e4c
p4e4c


Adventuring Hero
posted April 30, 2012 01:54 PM

What happened to not quoting the text directly above you??
I'm Russian ^_^
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 30, 2012 03:27 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 15:30, 30 Apr 2012.

Quote:
we all know how famous russian literature is for being wordy.


huh? To each one his half brain, mine is entire, don't count me on your list.
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majaczek
majaczek


Famous Hero
Work at Magic Dimmension
posted April 30, 2012 04:09 PM

Quote:
Quote:
How can you write so many things every single time!
- and barely say anything -_-


Well, I suppose he's russian, and we all know how famous russian literature is for being wordy.


I'm not Russian nor British/English. Bad try, but it seems nobody would know about any place near the one I live or was born, until he/she can read my nickname as native word (please not pop it here - it's still a bit fragile personal data). I'm always putting wall of text if I feel I need write to much ontopic (even if it is medium information to share), and I commonly use some partially-ontopic phrases/parts_of_text - it's my nature which is very hard to change. Of course I'm obliged and able to not say things completely offtopic, but it sometimes is not-enough-ontopic which I may be warned for (please moderators say then directly to me what is wrong, since the real subject for my last silence was for long time unknown for me).

I feel it's some offtopic, isn't it? Okay please don't grow this oftopic further, because I don't want to make other people react as if I were a troll (and consequnces of it). Still I think thread under this topic about freedom and HoTA is really valuable. And it is/was directly said on first 3 pages that HoTA is free, so it still is until somebody fixed it.

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SquigPie
SquigPie


Adventuring Hero
posted April 30, 2012 04:55 PM

Quote:
What happened to not quoting the text directly above you??
I'm Russian ^_^


Shh!
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Sav
Sav


Adventuring Hero
posted April 30, 2012 06:02 PM

2 majaczek

If you want to get new addresses or counts of some changed things you can find it in H3 code that was change by HotA. API with other conveniences is a hard work for far future.

Now and in near future HotA won't be the base for modding in any way. It's presented as playable itself.
If you don't want HotA to reduce your modding abilities - disable or delete it. We don't obliged to do extra work to make it easier or even possible for other mods to be compatible with HotA. It doesn't mean "we don't want" or "we'll never do". But we'll do it when we, not anybody else, want.

It won't be fail for HotA if you don't install it. Or if it is incompatible with most of plugins. Or if there is no mod, based on HotA. HotA now is for players, not for modders. Maybe (and I hope) once this situation will change.

The first pages of thread, besides thread first post, are too old to percieve it seriously. Forget it, now many things have changed.

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majaczek
majaczek


Famous Hero
Work at Magic Dimmension
posted May 01, 2012 08:26 AM
Edited by majaczek at 08:44, 01 May 2012.

@Sav

Not my fault, because I'll just won't install it because of incompabilities. It would be fault of HoTA that after joining ERA Community it would get almost nothing. It's not a problem to check what have changed in HoTA, but there's a problem in Compability - the plugin should automatically know this - else there's need of two version of plugins - one for HoTA, one for everything else. Your approach would make HoTA the most inferior ERA mod - and I guess it's not something you want. I don't ask for gifts to ERA - I just ask for not fighting ERA community by specially or lazily making incompabilities. Okay ERA is free to use, WoG is free to use, and we want your shiny towns in ERA - but it's not an excuse for robbing the community of freedom of use Amethyst, Emerald etc. Either you will accept rules of community you want join or you would only get the tools, not the community (so it would ease the works, but won't get many more new fans). It's not true that opening HoTA would be end of it - It's opposite: the fighting behaviour of HoTA team would make need and ability to create Diamond plugin with main feature of HoTA engine which ERA hasn't - adding new town types, moreover without artifical limits - then HoTA would be banned from community like Rekvizit, but of course town design would stay. So I request the Royal HoTA Programmers and Reverse Engineeers to have some common sense, because a tiny revolt could make you drop the crown with whole head.

If you want peace from us - give peace to us also. Elitarism/Royalism of HoTA team merged with fighting the word for no particular purporse is perhaps worst sin of the HoTA team. (Note for moderators: I don't want insult the team - I just used common phrase "worst sin of" which would have no sense without the "sin" word).

EDIT: in short words - make aliances, not conquers - having no allies while fighting the word is definately bad idea. Disrespect for allies and colonies quickly makes them foes. Think before you wouldn't be able to fix your mistakes.

EDIT2: the problem is not only me won't install HoTA because of incompoabilities - these would be decision of very most of ERA community. ERA is more about modding, and player just use mods (and could become new modder because of ease of tools). Fighting the modders directly is indirectly fighting the players - and this is what could make you more inferior than Rekvizit approach (Okay they also did some incompatibilities, but it were before era of ERA) which was hated for having to pay for mod. The approach you seem to choose is - use the shiny tools but fart at the community face - and I don't believe it gain (m)any more friends. If you open the HoTA you would be heroes, if you want even close ERA you would be band of rougues. Of course there's much space in the middle.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 01, 2012 09:06 AM

HoTA was planned and 99% coded 2 years before ERA, asking now to rework everything from scratch is non sense, those guys are not payed for the job. It is clearly stated that is not a modders database or "how to" manual, but a stand alone for game play only, as SoD or Heroes Chronicles.

A more intelligent approach would be to insist near VCMI guys for town plugin, as it pairs with their advertising. You don't go to a chinese restaurant and blame them for not having hamburgers on menu.
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lonelywolf
lonelywolf

Tavern Dweller
posted May 01, 2012 09:50 AM

Quote:
HoTA was planned and 99% coded 2 years before ERA, asking now to rework everything from scratch is non sense, those guys are not payed for the job. It is clearly stated that is not a modders database or "how to" manual, but a stand alone for game play only, as SoD or Heroes Chronicles.

A more intelligent approach would be to insist near VCMI guys for town plugin, as it pairs with their advertising. You don't go to a chinese restaurant and blame them for not having hamburgers on menu.


that is true, it takes time. but why not use the old code then?
and until now it is just a small mod like any other creaters can do. just a mod with a new town and some campains that is all and still in russian.

vcmi guys have still long way too go, last time i checked their forum out they just made a little update on enemy comp player but it was still very dumb. SO vcmi will takes some years before it will be in a good use.

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted May 01, 2012 10:08 AM

Yay, it's easy to wait and complain about it taking so long.
As if it could help project come faster
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!

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SquigPie
SquigPie


Adventuring Hero
posted May 01, 2012 10:11 AM

I suppose it could be compared to whipping the slave to make him work faster.

Neat motivation, but doesn't improve his opinion on you.
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p4e4c
p4e4c


Adventuring Hero
posted May 01, 2012 10:58 AM

Quote:

that is true, it takes time. but why not use the old code then?
and until now it is just a small mod like any other creaters can do.



Small mod? any other *creators can do?? Are you kidding me? -_-
Do you know how 'hard' and time consuming it is to get a new town from scratch! They did cut it a bit shorter by modeling the units in 3D and later rendering them as 2D sprites, but still.. small mod!?
Try making only one creature from scratch and see how 'small' amount of time that is going to take -_- imagine the whole town! It just takes a lot of time and it is done at a professional level! Don't forget the music and all the coding that had to be done as well!
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majaczek
majaczek


Famous Hero
Work at Magic Dimmension
posted May 01, 2012 12:34 PM
Edited by majaczek at 12:49, 01 May 2012.

Of course graphics for towns are big project. Adding support for more towns in engine is brave and shiny thing. The problem is morality and rules of HoTA team. It fits for USRR agenture, but not for open community celebrities post USRR era. There's absolutely no need to rewrite current HoTA code patches - they all can be ported almost as-is to a form supportive for ERA plugin mechanism. True reason is it not is hard but against HoTA elitarism. This way of behaviour works until losing the crown - and it would be lost with a head - no ability to surrender. Dictature of HoTA would sooner or later end. In ERA community rules HoTA team use is definately not acceptable - they may get tool but not the community until they change behaviour. If they manage to, they can become Heroes of ERA community - if they go more in wrong way they would get no better than Rekvizit.

HoTA have nice tool which is (only) partially work of them - but they morality stinks - not everybody likes fighting on same side as Sandro, but HoTA's undeads get some plastic surgery to look living and young. (silicon filling in boobs looks well but is only a lie). In your place I won't be happy if another person in your bed would be revealed as zombie - and it goes this way. Between company of heroes and band of rougues, there's much space to fill, so HoTA can definately keep their propertiary ideas without devastating ERA community. Crypting WoG-based mod and claiming it's their own is clearly a cheat. Who minds cheating in marketing, if only 10% natural burger, tastes well? Well if it stinks it sometimes matter. The problem is the people is more sheep, than people believe, because of current way of doing politics. 100 wise people seems not enough to stop sheeps going after 10 wolves wearing ram hides.

If you think it's only ideas, even if claiming beeing only author of something somebody other did is much worse than Copyright Piracy, let think about the future - they want join ERA (good), but resist to accept conscious open community rules (very bad, as they would start not only not helping community, but disturb much). ERA community will resistely accept propertiarism of HoTA but ensuring incompatibility with Amethyst, Emerald, and most yet most shiny things availible via ERA is definately unaceptable. Crypting is obvious sin in eyes of any conscious open community (until it is done only for hide personal data), but even fornication in today's world is commonly tolerable sin.

Fighting shouldn't be aim as Agreement shouldn't. They should be used as a tool  to good things. Agree on Good, Disagree on Evil. I/we can tolerate some evil if they become better enough, but still not accept it. Their (HoTA) aim seems to be fighting community of modders and getting appreciation of unconscious players. Our ultimate goal should not be peace but the Good. Peace is always good tool to achieve something good - if they agree to stop the fighting with not enough purporse - we would be able to give peace them. Trying to give peace people who gives you/we war and don't want to stop is treatery of your/our common honours and squandering of your/us common goods - in place Warmonger live it effected in disappearing of the country beeing divided for neighbours. If HoTA team stop be impudent to wise people (why common ones don't see it?) and become tolerable - we will tolerate their way, however it would not be enough to accept/agree. For Bersy and official ERA team it doesn't matter now, because they don't mind any wider distribution, but it would start matter if HoTA still would want to fight modders after ERA - a bit of thinking and morality can protect everybody from future wars which would be effect of HoTA team behaviour. I really like some features from HoTA and wish them to be good and get well, but they really making problems for no particular purporse. If they want to be Heroes why not public all things? Even after collecting 5000$ on kickstarter? Well because they aren't heroic, but want much of splendor. (Fidel Castro have some reasons to be seen as cuban hero, but who will appreciate Lenin and Stalin without beeing cheated?). As general rule no human is totally evil and all people can get heaven if they change to be better before they die. Heaven, Valhaalla, The land of Ethernal Hunting, or however you would call it.

Hope it is enough ontopic, and sorry for so big wall of text.

EDIT: I not voice for HoTA decapitation, I only voice HoTA to behave sensible or they just would make once crowds raged, so please them change before the fact. The propertiary way is acceptable/tolerable but fighting the modders community to steal splendor and nothing more definately isn't. HoTA team can become Heroes if they manage in the time.

EDIT2: Thinking again - yes it's small mod - very closed propertiary tools and some pairs of maps - the biggest mod here is ERA as it is open and growing - and the feature will become part of ERA even without HoTA help. ERA is huge community mod with 1% already done which is more than just HoTA - so HoTA is a small mod seeing in this way. Not because the works, but because ideas.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted May 01, 2012 12:44 PM
Edited by Cepheus at 13:14, 01 May 2012.

That is more than enough of this sparring between modders about free software and rights. I have been lenient. No more warnings: take it elsewhere. Further posts on the subject will just be outright deleted without notice. Contribute only if you have news or a constructive comment related to the mod. Thank you.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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king90
king90

Tavern Dweller
posted May 02, 2012 02:30 PM

Hello,

I have been playing Hota for a month, and I think it is very great. (Good Work Hota Team )
I have just noticed that the AI doesn't play well with the new castle on Impossible (I always play Heroes 3 on impossible). the AI doesn't build the castle quickly as when it plays with other castles.

I have did also a small test with the level 6 and 7 creatures  (upgraded) of the new castle. using the map editor, I made combats between level 6 creatures and then with level 7. 1 vs 1 (for example: 1 naga queen vs 1 level 6 creature of the new castle). And of course I put the attack and the defense of each hero at 0 to make the combats balanced. here are the results:
level 6 of the cove town always looses to naga queen and Dread knights, with a tie versus Magic Elemental (the one who attack the first wins). It wins always for all the others
level 7 of the cove town always looses to Titan (because Titan has ranged attack), Archangel.
about 80% of the times wins to Ancient Behemoth. And always wins to all the others.

I have also had some problems playing the game. Sometimes it closes without giving any error message. this always happen when I try to use the view earth or view air spells. and for other reasons that I don't know till know.


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Sav
Sav


Adventuring Hero
posted May 02, 2012 03:39 PM
Edited by Sav at 06:53, 03 May 2012.

Unfortunately, now AI doesn't "know" anything about new creatures and buildings abilities, it cannot use Sea Wolfes (3 level second grade) etc., that's why it doesn't play well. It's not easy to improve AI and "tell" it about new abilities, but we'll do it in the future, however hardly soon.

7 level grade was concieved as a strong and expensive creature. Strength of 6 and 7 levels can be compensated by their not very high speed.
Be that as it may, balanse of Cove is far from ideal. If you can suggest some ideas for it - you are welcome.

When HotA crashes it usually creates a log file with an error description in "HotA_logs" folder. The name of that file includes the time, when the game was launched and the text of that file contains the time of the crash. You can help us to fix a crash if you send or share to us the log file that has been created when the crash caused.

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