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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Stronghold - The Power of Rage.
Thread: Stronghold - The Power of Rage. This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT»
Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted June 29, 2008 12:23 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 02 Jul 2008.
Edited by Mytical at 13:35, 05 Jul 2008.

Stronghold - The Power of Rage.

This will be a work in progress for a bit, and is a discussion about Stronghold Tactics, creatures, and the like.

First, lets discuss creatures, and their upgrades.

Goblins - With Cowardice and being traitors they are dangerous to have in your army.  There biggest use is early creeping (single stacks to help build rage and make sure they don't turn against you) and being sacrificed or eaten by Shamans or Cyclops respectively.  Upgrade as soon as possible.

Trappers - Early Creeping really benifits from this upgrade.  Slow walkers have a hard time getting to you now, and when they do they are normally so weak it doesn't matter.  This upgrade is generally more useful then the counterparts. Best suited for general creeping execept as listed below in witchdoctors.  In seige combat they have minor uses, mostly for open area combat.

Goblin Witchdoctors - Only useful in very specific settings.  Requirements - Lots and lots of them and enemy casters (creeps or hero and creatures in their army that can cast).  Otherwise Trapper is a better choice by far.  Be aware that if their power fails that they recieve the effects of the spell even if not targeted.  Thuse the lots and lots (and lots) of them comment.
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Centaurs - The 1st (and only) ranged unit for the Stronghold army.  Because they actually loose a bit of initiative their upgrades can be held off for a bit.  You need large numbers of them, so do what you can to limit their losses.  If there is a possibilty of loosing them and you can fight the fight without them, leave them out.

Centaurs Nomads/Marauder - These upgrades are a matter of choice and taste.  One of them has the bad habit of running right into the waiting arms of the enemy if not careful however.  Though the ability to shoot after being hit by a melee unit is useful.  The Extra oomph on retaliations from Marauders also make them contenders.
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Warriors - For some reason they die way too easy.  Suggest upgrading when you can.  Pretty much the mandatory slow walker of the group.  They can hit pretty hard at least. Their building does allow you to build the shammie building though.  Shammies are VERY nice...so it's all good.  Just don't bother recruiting them..ever. Unless your enemy makes it to your doorstep and there is no other choice.  Exception : Using Telsek.

Maulers(spelling ?) - Their two hits can be very useful, and they can do some insane damage.  Depends if you want offense or defense.  Maulers for offense!

Warmongers - Their fierce retaliation make them perfect blockers for the Centaurs vs flyers or walkers.  Personally I like Maulers, because they are a bit more for the offense, and Stronghold is strongly offense leaning.  On the plus side for them is that the enemy rarely ever targets them.  When they do they tend to have unlimited retal and max rage (giving them waaaay too many hp).  Taunt also has its uses.
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Shaman - The beautiful but deadly female memebers of the Stronghold are both useful and dangerous (to the enemies) They and their upgrades possess the only spells available to Stronghold, and should be gotten to as quickly as possible.  However, you may want to upgrade as quickly as soon as feasible also.

Earth Daughters - Imo the best of the upgrades.  With swift retaliation, and hexing attack they are a force to be reconed with.  Try to use them to slow the enemy first, then they have no retaliation and can further curse the enemy.  However, be careful if they are frenzied or puppetmastered as these same abilities can hurt your own troops bad. Sacrificing goblins increases both rage and mana.

Sky Daughters - You would think that having chain lightning in a clan without magic would be a good thing.  However, I find that they have too limited uses and always choose Earth Daughters.
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Slayer - Dangerous enough unupgraded, when upgraded they become downright scary.  Cleave is a useful ability.  Another brute walker with attitude.  Still, they become more useful when upgraded.

Executioner - Pros.  Frightful aura..lowers morale of enemies by 3 if they are next to them. Which except against necros is a good thing.  Also, cleave..two attacks is nothing to sneeze at.  Morale always at +1.  Cons: Can't use order of the chief.  Which generally means your Cyclops won't get to act as often...both are good but I generally choose chieftain.

Chieftain - Grants allies near them a +1 Morale boost, and has word of the chief ability.  I miss cleave, but generally making sure that your cyclops is nearer to the enemy if frenzied is more benificial then that. If facing any town that even has a potential for dark magic, choose these every time.
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Wyvern - The sole flyer in the Stronghold Army.  They don't have demon blood, so they can not use bloodrage.  For this reason, I generally don't bother getting them unless I have nothing else to spend on.  If you do buy their dwelling, get the upgrades as soon as possible.

Foul Wyvern - Slightly more useful then the Wyverns.  Use vs living units that are not adjacent to other units.  Best used for Defending or Attacking castles where their flying is more useful.

Pao Kai - Also more useful then Wyverns these are best used against undead, mechanical, or units that are adjacent to other units.  Again they are better during seiges, but they are slightly more useful then foul wyverns generally.  They are the only choice if fighting Necromancers.
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Cylcops - Big, mean, ugly, and with rage one of the strongest teir sevens out there.  Get ASAP.  They are kinda slow, but with word of the cheif you can make up for that.  Have your chieftains knock them into a fury and start mauling things.
Where are they useful?  The question is where are they NOT useful.
Also aura of swiftness or divine guidence can help them a lot.

Untamed Cylcops - Pros : Can hit more then one enemy at a time, increadibly tough, and mean.  Cons: Can hit your own units even if not frenzied or Puppetmastered.  Again word of cheif, aura of swiftness or divine guidence. Haste them with shammies also if possible.  You want them nearest your enemy as quickly as possible in case of frenzy.

Bloodeye Cylcops - With their ability to reduce the luck of any creature they hit, they can come in handy in just about any fight (as luck is a skill that almost all towns pick), especially Sylvan (to cut down on their luck ).  They also are not quite as danagerous to your own troops.  I find them less helpful when seiging however.

Throwing goblins generally I have found to be a bad idea, plus they do only 1/2 normal damage (1/4 at a distance, 1/2 within range)  Cyclops staying in one place next to another unit is not the best tactic.  Frenzy is nasty.  Most towns WILL use frenzy if at all possible for them.  Now as for devouring goblins to regain hp by all means.  Though it uses up a action, you need to conserve as many Cyclops as you can.
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Next up will be skill selections, alternate tactics, and a odd anti-dungeon/haven tactic I am considering.  

SKILLS

Attack (Essential)
They are an attack oriented faction, and attack is almost mandatory for them.  Regardless which perks you take, Attack is a skill that you should not be without if you are playing stronghold.

Archery
Sure it only helps one creature, but it leads to one of the best perks in the game for Stronghold.  Most of the time, unless I play Kragh, I choose this.

Frenzy
When playing Kragh, and sometimes even when not, this is a fun skill to have.  With goblins not being able to retaliate, however, it takes a lot of omph out of it.  Still..stronghold has good growth, so it can still be worth it.  Most of the time however, it is not taken. It is also one of the prerequisits for Retribution.

Note : I never take Frenzy with archery because you can't get flaming arrows and retribution.


Tactics
This is a very useful skill for any faction that is attack oriented, and Stronghold is not an exception.  This should be a choice regardless of which tatic you employ (Except with Kraugh).

Retribution
Battle frenzy and Battle Elation, two very useful perks, lead to yet another very useful perk.  Retribution.  Deffinately worth taking at anytime. Can also choose this over ecr strike for Kraugh.  Just don't skip Stunning blow with him.

Flaming Arrows
Makes neutral fights a WHOLE lot easier for Stronghold.  Most of the time you are going to want this, again unless you play Kraugh.

Stunning Blow
One of Kraughs best perks.  Add this with Powerful Blow and it = pain for the enemy.  With this and leadership (Rally Cry too) you can help keep key enemies busy while doing some real damage with Kraugh.  Sometimes with him however, I go empathy so he can deal more damage

Excruciating Strike
Another perk I choose for Kraugh to make it even worse when he hits the enemy.  Pretty much not of use to any other Stronghold hero.
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Leadership
Since often you have better things to do then rallycry, and the perks are amazing, Leadership is one of the more useful skills for the Stronghold.  It's perks are top notch.

Recruitment
It does very little for the faction (except for secondary heroes) as you won't be in town most of the time.  However, it leads to some VERY useful abilities.

Diplomacy
Don't take it, probably never will, even for secondary (With Kragh as an exception).

Estates
Deffinately a secondary hero skill if at all. (and I think the skill should increase with hero level)

Battle Elation
Yet another way leadership helps the faction.  When they get morale they get free extra rage.  This skill also leads to retribution.  There is no downside to picking this skill!

Aura of Swiftness
To me a better choice then divine guidence.  Another reason to pick recruitment also.  This + Tactics (and if your lucky the boots that give +1 speed) is an amazing combo.

Divine Guidence
Has its pros and cons.  Good for helping units move earlier without damaging them like word of the chief, but you have to pass up aura.

Empathy
If not for it's prerequisit this would be a great skill for stronghold heroes.  Usually ignored and not taken.  Though there is an alt tactic I discussed earlier with Kraugh.


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Luck
Ah luck, the ability to do double damage in a single strike.  When damage = rage and rage = bonuses..it is even better!  This is one of the best skills a Stronghold hero can get.  Not only does it reduce the number of enemies that can attack, it gives rage to soak up damage so that you suffer less losses.  Win/Win.  Usually put off perks unless fighting academy or stronghold, then usually MR/LOTB

Soldiers LuckOnly a few creatures benifit from this ability.  Personally I seldom pick it as there are better choices, but it is a matter of taste. Might pick it vs another Stronghold enemy.  Most likely would go resourcefullness and spoils however.

Magic Resistance
Almost a given when facing a magic oriented enemy.  Doesn't offer much, but every little bit helps.  Pick this and Luck of the barbarian vs casters.

Resourcefulness
If you are going to pick anything in luck, this is usually my first choice (except vs acadmey/dungeon).  Resources never hurt to have.

Luck of the Barbarian
Especially helpful vs Academy.  Still some help vs Dungeon, though reduced because of irresitable magic.

Tear of Asha Vision/Dead Mans curse
I guess if you had nothing else to pick..otherwise they are way too limited.  Most of the time -1 luck is not going to do much and if their is no tear, the vision is absolutely useless.
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War_Machines (Very Handy, especially early game)
With one of the strongest balista in the game, it is hard to pass this skill up.  Not to mention you can help stave off losses with tents as well.  Mostly it is chosen for Flaming Arrow - Triple Balista Combo, however.  A deadly combination.

Balista
Almost certainly this is chosen, as it leads to tripple balista. Yet it does give you an extra shot and let you choose the target.  Not to mention repairing the balista after a battle if it is destroyed.

First Aid
A lot of IFS with this one.  IF you can get it early enough and IF it doesn't cause you to pass up a much more needed skill, then by all means get it.  Recovering lost units and countering poison/dark spells is very important with Stronghold.

Catapult
One ranged, one flyer..if you plan on seiging an enemy town, this is an important skill.  If you can get tent early enough, you can pass this up (because of Cyclops) but otherwise..get this skill!

Triple Balista
Pretty self explanitory.  Also a good skill to help with creeping (With or without flaming balista)

Goblin Support
An extra 7 goblins a week...hardly worth the skill point.  However, if you are going for the ultimate skill, it is mandatory.

Brimstone Rain
Another needed for ultimate, and not a bad choice in itself, too bad about needing Goblin Support.

Plague Tent
Good vs creeps, but just not much use imo.  Mostly your tent should be bringing your lost troops back to life, not worring about killing the enemy.  Besides Balista > Triple Balista is just SO much better at the job of killing enemies.
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Now the Racial Skills

RAGE
This skill does it all.  Increases stats, reduces losses, gives units extra abilities.  Regardless if the damage comes from melee, range, or spells this skill helps reduce the damage and losses.
Get this skill to expert ASAP!

Memory of our blood
Free Rage at the begining of battle.  Where do I sign up? Deffinately a skill to have.

Might over Magic
This is a handy skill.  Take when possible (Except against stronghold, but especailly against Academy or Dungeon)

Powerful Blow
THE skill to have with Kraugh, and doesn't hurt with the rest of the heroes.  Free attacks, and the hero can then concentrate on doing other things.
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Logistics
I will admit I have a heard time choosing between two paths with logistics.  I will also admit that in smaller maps I don't even pick it (Yes the rotten tomatoes can now be thrown).  I replace it with a shatter or even sometimes defense.

Pathfinding
Almost always a good choice with Logistics.  Lets you chase down (or run away) from your enemy better.

Scouting
The only reason you should get this if you are going for swift mind/silent stalking.  Though Swift Mind is a nice perk.

Navigation
Mostly useless by every faction, and this is not an exception.  Have never chosen this perk.

Swift Mind
Almost always a good choice.  Starting a bit earlier with your hero can never hurt.  Just wish it had been under pathfinding instead of scouting.

Silent Stalker
I'll be honest, hardly ever choose it.  Too limited and situational.  Sure it can fool some human enemies into attacking what they think is a weaker force, but that is about it.

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Defense
This skill is often not chosen, myself however, I do choose it to suprise my enemies from time to time (who don't expect it).
Logic behind this?  Less damage = less rage lost and less creatures lost.  Less Rage Loss = retaining more abilities, and less creatures lost.  Win/Win.

Vitality
Suddenly those goblins last a whole lot longer.  Not only do creatures do less damage (because of the defense skill) but your creatures have more hp.  So all your creatures become a lot harder to kill.  I usually choose this, Evasion, defend us all.  Or Vitality, Protection, Evasion.

Protection
Nice vs Magic Using factions.  A so/so choice, leads to resistance tho. Also against magic casting creeps .

Evasion
Since ranged units are one of the two units that tend to give stronghold a hard time till later, this is an excellent choice.  Stacks with the defense skill, and means a lot lower damage to your creatures.  Also leads to Last Stand.

Last Stand
This skill is mostly useful, but it can actually hurt sometimes. (Like rage creeping, which will be explained later).  Generally, however I myself do not choose it.

Stand your Ground
Again, a skill that I just can not see with Stronghold.  I guess it could be useful in creeping walkers, but even against fast walkers you should not have much trouble with walkers at all with Stronghold.  (Trappers ftw!!!)

Resistance
Extra defense is not so useful to Stronghold.  Though I guess every little bit helps

Defend us All
If I have the points I will pick this.  Usually with Telsek mostly however.

Preparation
Just one question..what the heck are you doing hitting defend with stronghold? Fortress..yes, I see this skill.  Stronghold..no.
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Enlightenment
Free experience and free extra stats.  My kind of skill.  I do pick this if it happens to show its face.  Sure the exp won't make much of a difference, but the stats just might.  Though choosing between perks is a bit difficult for me.

Stamina
Rarely pick this or the skill it leads to Dark Revelation.

Bloodfire
Both a blessing and a curse.  Still with Memory of our blood and one of the buildings that add rage, you can start with 150 rage at the begining of battle.  Not bad at all.  One of my normal picks..when not picking..

Battle Lore
Normally I don't like this skill, but it does lead to mentoring.  Which is a good thing.  Further you can mentor a secondary, have them go back and learn shouts, then come back and teach them to the person with battle lore.  So you don't have to make a trip back to the town (except for high level shouts).

Intelligence
Ok more mana is great and all, but if not for mentoring, normally would not choose this.  Stronghold Knowledge is just not high enough to justify it normally.

Mentoring
I love this skill.  Too bad that you really don't have the points to get this often, as you are getting much more needed skills.  Still free mid level secondaries are nothing to sneeze at (Hire secondary, get mentored, poof you have a mid level secondary).

Dark Revelation
I would say this would be ok at high levels, but not for lower levels.  OR when you know that the end of the game is near.  You can get a lot of free exp this way, and another point to put somewhere else.  Especially when you have expert enlightenment.
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Shatter Light
Would not waste a skill point on this.  Might be somewhat useful vs Fortress (with Fire Resistance), but otherwise..not so much.  Though I guess you could throw Divine Vengence users a curve ball

Weaken LightWould be never taken imo.  Just don't see the point of it (most of the time the factions you would actually use this against would have eternal light, making this useless).

Detain Light
Mostly not very useful, but would put a hamper on light casters.  Mass spells would take full turns, and Divine Vengence would take 1.5 x as long for them to cast.

Corrupt Light
50% more mana to cast spells could really hamper some faction like Haven. But that is about it.

Refined Mana
All in all not a bad skill.  Though like Intelligence not as much use to Stronghold as to some.

Fire Resistance
Only use is vs towns that use fire spells (perhaps the inferno skill also).  Other then that..why bother

Storm Wind
Well would be of use against a few towns, as init and speed of flyers is reduced by 1.  So if you are going shatter light anyhow, and are facing dragons, griffins, or something similar..why not?
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Shout
Generally I avoid this, but there are some benifits to having it (Especially in the Campain with your main male hero).  Not to mention with Empathy and swift mind you can do some nice Fear My Roar spamming (if you get the shout that is).  Don't try this tactic vs undead, elemental, or mechanical beings however .

Shout of Rage
Doubles rage you get from using shouts.  Not without its benifits (especially with Gotai).

Mana Regeneration
Not very useful with stronghold (like intelligence and refined mana).  If you are going with the Shout line however, might be a good idea.  Especially if using the Fear My Roar tatic.

Shout Training (Another Fear my roar mass casting tactic perk )
20% less mana used for shouts.  You could actually have some almost endless casting with this, regen, intelligence, and refined mana.

Mighty Shout
When using shouts the hero is considered 5 levels higher?  Not very useful in my book, but .. leads to..

Distract
15% init penalty for any enemy caster who casts any spell.  This and a Detain could really hamper enemy casters.
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Shatter Dark
As stated earlier..if your enemy has any chance of using dark..get this as soon as it shows up.  Get it to expert as soon as possible.  Get perks as soon as possible.  There are a lot of towns that can use dark.  ALWAYS expect it (unless playing Stronghold ) (With expert Shatter dark you can guarantee that your Cyclops can not be Puppetmastered and that frenzy only lasts one turn with them)

Corrupt Dark
Hmm making enemies pay 50% more mana to cast a spell.  Yep, sounds good to me.  Even if it is offset by the enemy having intelligence, still a worthy pick.

Detain Dark
One of my favorite perks regardless of which shatter skill.  Again, makes mass spells take as long as normal spells, and makes normal spells take 1.5x as long!  Slow enemy casters WAY down.  Get this perk first if offered!

Weaken Dark
Again reducing how long the spells last on your troops.  Combine with Might over Magic for some real fun.  Since it also stacks with the fact that shatters reduces dark's effective skill level..you can make sure those dark spells don't last very long!

Corrupt Soil
I'll be honest, the three main perks are much more useful imo.  Never get it.

Weakening Strike
Don't even get this for Kragh who is the king of physical attacks.  Let me reinterrate.  Corrupt Dark, Detain Dark, Weaken Dark.  Say it with me now..Corrupt Dark, Detain Dark, Weaken Dark.  
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Shatter Summons
Another to consider for certain factions.  Academy, Dungeon, and possibly Sylvan come to mind.  Though it is hard to take 2 shatters, and you would loose out on some other good skills.  Might be worth it in the long run tho.

Corrupt Summons
See Corrupt Dark.

Detain Summons
See Detain Dark

Weaken Summons
Now this is a bit different.  I am torn between two here.  Back to the Void is a good choice too..especially if you are going to face a summoned phoenix...

Back to the Void
Summoned creatures go up, summoned creatures go down.  Pretty basic.  Of course, once they know you have this they break out Arcane Armor and such

Fog Veil
The one skill that might make it worthwhile to pass up Corrupt Summons and Back to the void..especially vs Sylvan.  Now while 10% less init and -10% damage is not awe inspiring..every little bit helps when going against arcane archers.
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Shatter Destruction
Magi, Druids, various other creatures, their upgrades, and some heroes have one thing in common.  The power to blast you into next week with Destructive Spells. How do you teach them some manners and show them who's boss?  Shatter Destruction.

Corrupt Destruction
Well probably not very effective vs Academy, but somewhat more vs other towns that use destructive.  Especially Dungeon.  Especially if they decide to cast empowered spells.  (2.5x the cost for 1.5x the power)

Detain Destruction
Those Sorcery mad casters got you down?  Facing a quick caster like Jhora?  Well this may not stop them, but it will deffinately slow them down if they cast any destruction spells.

Weaken Destruction
Suprisingly I don't like this perk for this skill.  Yeah it can lower the hurt some..but there are better choices.

Mana Burst
Not very powerful, but can drive Academy players mad when their mages start blowing themselves up (Casting Creatures take 10*heroes level in damage each time they cast a spell).

Fiery Wrath
A nice little perk for Stronghold.  10% extra damage is nothing to sneeze at.
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Things to watch out for when creeping with stronghold.  Casters of any kind.  Avoid them early game, they will beat you senseless and send you crying to mommy.  Once you have either a flaming arrows/tripple balista, Kraugh with Stunning Blow/Powerful blow, or a LOT of witchdoctors you can risk it (and I mean A LOT).  Use high hitpoint creatures like slayers, warriors, or cyclops though.  Shammies can help too.

Archers...especially if they have Arcane anywhere in the name.  Best avoided early, and sometimes even later.  Put some heavy hitters in, and single stacks of goblins to rush and block them.  Tactics, Aura, and shamies are usually a good idea.

Flyers.  Stacks of single blockers and enough room to run if they dive in any way is essential.  Or just overpower them with your whole army.

Elementals, especially of the fire or water variety.  Treat as Archers or Casters respectively.  Air as flyers, earth you can happily knock them around

Ghosts ... ARRRGH.  These are very very annoying.  If you don't have a whole lot of troops, or flaming triple balista, avoid.  You have NO magic and that means you will miss..A LOT!

Now unlike most of the other guides I am not going to list skills as must have, should have, might have, etc.  I will tell you some of my 'common' builds, and weird concept (ie never tested use at own risk) builds.  The common builds have been tested vs human enemies and even though I've lost some times it has been close fights when I did loose.

Common Build Kragh (who is a bit different then most other Stronghold guys).

Powerful Blow, Memory of Our Blood, Might over magic (depending on which town I face)

Expert Attack - Frenzy - Stunning Blow - Retribution OR Excrutiating Strike.
Expert Leadership - Recruitment, Battle Elation-Aura of Swiftness

Expert Luck

Expert War_Machines - Balista, Triple Balista (and either Tent or Catapult depending on when offered)

The rest depends on how many skill points you have left and what enemy you face(ie how many levels you have).  Also you can forgo aura, and tent/catapult if you need some extra points like for Shatter Dark ..if in dire straights vs a caster, you can even go only to Advanced Leadership, Advanced luck.

An Empathy build is also a good way to go with Kragh.  You loose retribution by having to give up battle elation, but then again you don't have to choose recruitment so you have an extra skill point and get excrutiation strike.

(going to stop with the expert, advanced, etc..should be obvious by now )
Common Stronghold Build (flaming arrows)

Well this one should be obvious.
Attack - Archery- flaming arrows
War_Machines - Balista - Triple Balista (points allowing either tent or catapult)
Leadership - Recruitment - Battle Elation
Luck (and if against casters) MR and Luck of the Barbarian (points allowing)
Logistics - Pathfinding - Scouting - Swift Mind (though this is only if I have the extra points)
The sixth skill is again depending on enemy.
Also in small maps Logistics can be traded in for Enligtenment, Defense, another shatter skill, and/or Shout

Common Stronghold Build (Retribution)
Attack - Frenzy - Retribution - (and maybe) tactics
Leadership - Recruitment - Battle Elation
Luck- As above in flaming arrows

the three other skills is depending on map, enemy, and such.

Now here is a build that probably wouldn't work, but would give casters major FITS.

Attack - Tactics, Archery, Flaming Arrows (you will not be able to go retribution with this)
Defense - Resistance, Vitality, Evasion
Shout (with Distract)
OR
Luck with MR and Luck of the barbarian
Shatter Destructive (and favorite perks)
Shatter Dark (Corrupt dark, Detain Dark, Weaken Dark)
Shatter Summons (Back to the Void)

Would be hard to get this however.  Very very hard.

Well since another thread covers the heroes and their abilities, there is only a few things left to cover.  One of these are the warcries.

Rally Cry.  Pro: Free Morale and rage.  With battle elation and Empathy, can really help to move things along for Stronghold.  Cons: Once you get Fear My Roar, Horde's Anger, and several others you won't be using this very often.

Word of the Cheif.  Pros : Causes units to really move up the ATB bar.  Especially useful if you have untamed in your ranks.  Cons: Reduces rage, causes damage, and can even kill a few of your lower teir units.

Horde's Anger.  A direct damage spell based on how many units you have.  Can be very useful vs low hp units like Dancers (even Wind as it ignores Defense).  Or any type of archer/caster.  It's downside is, relies on army size.  The longer a battle goes, the weaker the cry is.
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Plague
Plague


Known Hero
Only Hell know my pain
posted June 29, 2008 12:42 PM

Maybe goblins and their upgrades are weaks,and they realy are,but we need them for sacriface,for trow them,for swalow(cyclops need that). And a big noumber of goblins,even one hit only with 1 dmg,if u have 500 that means 500 dmg,sounds good.
Goblins and theirs ugprades are very needed in the orc army.
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espen15
espen15


Famous Hero
posted June 29, 2008 02:02 PM

i hate goblins because of their cowardise, treachery, too weak, they are very bad creatures even peasants will prove more useful

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted June 29, 2008 02:05 PM

Quote:
Maybe goblins and their upgrades are weaks,and they realy are,but we need them for sacriface,for trow them,for swalow(cyclops need that). And a big noumber of goblins,even one hit only with 1 dmg,if u have 500 that means 500 dmg,sounds good.
Goblins and theirs ugprades are very needed in the orc army.


Indeed, that is why in my original post I made the suggestions I did.
While they are weak because of their specials, the upgrades help a lot as does rage.
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Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted June 29, 2008 02:24 PM

Quote:
Goblins - Upgrade as soon as possible.

I was used to upgrade them asap, but nowadays I tend to upgrade them on week two, especially when using Haggash - Trappers are very good against really annoying walkers like Black Bears, but doesnīt offer any help against shooters and flyers. Iīm using unupgraded Goblins for delivering final blow to walkers who got too near to my Centaurs, because they have same damage and speed as Trappers, and initiative 12 instead of 10. Of course if local creeps are way too numerous, I upgrade them, otherwise creeping can be done without losses just with Goblins + Centaurs (considering mainly Haggash with Battle Frenzy).

Quote:
Centaurs - The 1st (and only) ranged unit for the Stronghold army.  Because they actually loose a bit of initiative their upgrades can be held off for a bit.

I often upgrade them on day two (their dwelling on first one), as I usually spend whole first week by tour-de-creeps and on day two Iīm still able to reach main with secondary and change troops. I always go for Marauders - more hp, speed and mainly no melee penalty, which is handy for fighting Gargolyes and such - moreover, against faster creeps you can charge and hit them for full damage instead of shooting with penalty. And I just hate when Centaurs get hit by some lousy stack of fast weaklings and run just in middle of the battlefield, where they immediately lose rage and die. Marauders just return strike with full force, hopefully killing the stack and gaining rage.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 29, 2008 02:32 PM

If you use Haggash you don't really need a centaur upgrade but trappers are always a must. How else will you attack a horde of let's say warmongers? Or lots of blackbears? Trappers allow you to deal with powerful neutrals and have faster creeping.

Reason you do not need centaur upg is that they are at 11 init and you already get a minor init boost from her special. It's better to shoot ranged units first than have better hp, besides warmachines is faily easy to get and tent does wonders.
Normally I'd upgrade them anyway but every last unit of mercury is needed and I rarely lose unupgraded centaurs in earlygame so they are not vital.
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Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted June 29, 2008 03:30 PM

As I said, it depends on map. On Dragon Cape I usually donīt upgrade Goblins and I donīt have any losses at all. On Dragon Hill I do. Basically if creeps are not that tough, their upgrade can wait. War Machines really does wonders. I take Mercury always as the starting bonus, and I rarely have some difficulties.
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httassadar
httassadar


Adventuring Hero
posted June 29, 2008 08:52 PM

Great post. Waiting for ur ideas on wyverns. I build them very very occasionally since they don't have rage ability. Also, Paokais split their damage instead of hitting like Thane, which is really bad IMO.

Also a question for cyclops, do you have a clear idea which 2x2 tile he's hitting? Another related question, which of the 4 tile is a large creature standing on? need to know this for various reasons, eg, calculate where lich/centaur has half damage.

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted June 30, 2008 06:15 AM
Edited by Mytical at 06:54, 30 Jun 2008.

Quote:
Great post. Waiting for ur ideas on wyverns. I build them very very occasionally since they don't have rage ability. Also, Paokais split their damage instead of hitting like Thane, which is really bad IMO.

Also a question for cyclops, do you have a clear idea which 2x2 tile he's hitting? Another related question, which of the 4 tile is a large creature standing on? need to know this for various reasons, eg, calculate where lich/centaur has half damage.


I agree with the Wyverns.  Skip them for the most part unless you pretty much have nothing else to build, and no creatures to purchase.  If you have money to burn, by all means go ahead.  While the regeneration is nice, they are just not very effective.

As for Untamed Cyclops I believe (but do not know 100%) that if possible he will always hit two units so it depends on where those two units are located.  He always hits anything that hit him first (unless of course they have no retal then he doesn't hit anything ), and anything adjacent to them..but it doesn't seem to matter where adjacent to them.  Good be up, down, left or right (depending where the cyclops is) I also think the next stack he hits is the most powerful possible (again not positive on this).

As for the last question I believe they are calculated as standing on all of them.  If one square is close enough to give full damage, then your archers will give full damage.  Again, I've never tested it, but seems logical.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 30, 2008 06:32 AM

See here.
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted June 30, 2008 10:53 AM

Finished with creatures and I am working on skills.  Here is where I need the skill wheel .  I forget a lot of the perks because I hardly ever select them.
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Skeleton_King
Skeleton_King


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
posted June 30, 2008 11:50 AM

yeah, stronghold units are rushing trops, like at h3. they have good dmg, good atack skill, but low, low hp. the blood rage help them much, just look at the goblin, at 3 lvl of rage, they have no retaletion,and the cowardice ability is eliminated.

And the warriors, at 1 st lvl of rage gain +5 hp!

And cyclopses, can eat some goblins to heal they're hp;s. i think with a stronghold hero u must have defence, and vitality. just think, the goblins will have 5 hp.

A good combo is to have luck, and defense. U can gain the protection of spells with luck 5 at 55%, with this abilites protection +15%, magic resistence +15%, and luck of the barbarian with 5 % per luck point. results with luck at 5 will have =25% protection,=15%, +15% will have 55%

a good skill is leadership, almost at h3. stronghold has shock troops, and with another atack... the enemy is crushed like a bug.

War machines is good. just think, with the catapult abuility, u will able to destroy the gate, and your shock creatures will able to enter ikn the city and crush the enemy. a good ability is the first aid tent, is good for barbarians, because they have low hp, and with this ability, u will able to resurect 33 goblins. not bad, no?
this ability is not important, for a weak garison hero.

Plague tent is not bad, u will inflict damage like an eldritch arow, is not so bad, but, is not so important.


Another good combo is atack and leadership. btattle frenzy is good, especialy for lvl 1-2 creatures. the goblin will inflict 2 dmg. and archery is important, u will atack with centaur will inflict +20% dmg, not bad.
retribution is good, with leadership, u will have morale 5, u will inlfict 40% dmg. 15% dmg for atack, and 25% for retribution. The battle elation is good.

Stronghold RULZ!

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Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted June 30, 2008 01:54 PM

Quote:
Chieftain - Grants allies near them a +1 Morale boost

I believe that they grants all adjacent allied stacks +1 Initiative, not Morale.
Quote:
Frenzy
When playing Kraugh, and sometimes even when not, this is a fun skill to have.  With goblins not being able to retaliate, however, it takes a lot of omph out of it.  Still..stronghold has good growth, so it can still be worth it.  Most of the time however, it is not taken.

I take it almost everytime, it is great for early creeping due to high growths. You are not using Retribution?
Quote:
A good combo is to have luck, and defense. U can gain the protection of spells with luck 5 at 55%, with this abilites protection +15%, magic resistence +15%, and luck of the barbarian with 5 % per luck point. results with luck at 5 will have =25% protection,=15%, +15% will have 55%

You will have 15% Magic Resistance and 40% Magic-Proof in this case.

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httassadar
httassadar


Adventuring Hero
posted June 30, 2008 02:31 PM

Retribution means no flaming arrow. Tactics is more useful than battle frenzy if you already pick up flaming arrow I think, usually I just have expert attack with two perks.
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Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted June 30, 2008 05:27 PM

Quote:
Retribution means no flaming arrow. Tactics is more useful than battle frenzy if you already pick up flaming arrow I think, usually I just have expert attack with two perks.

You are right, I usually aim for Flaming Arrows (since Attack and WM are best skill choice for Orcs) - but just in case I already have War Machines. Otherwise I take Leadership instead, and if I get Battle Elation and still no WM, I go for Retribution - additional +25% damage is sweet. On maps, where is Memory Mentor, I usually take Battle Frenzy first (in case that WM are not available) to speed up my creeping. So usually my build is Flaming Arrows + Tactics, but in case that WM havenīt popped up in time, enemy has Cold Death or lategame armies are already too big, I aim for Tactics + Retribution (in that cases ballista would be out in first turn - +25% damage for all creatures is more dependable).
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 30, 2008 07:19 PM

Retribution can get above 25% damage if you have above 5 morale. And please don't fool around with skeleton king, anakrom explained well enough how magic resistance and magic proof works.
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Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted June 30, 2008 11:14 PM

Quote:
Retribution can get above 25% damage if you have above 5 morale.
My TotE skillwhell says that Retribution gives +5% bonus damage per each point of positive morale up to 25%, but now I checked Aurelainīs Wheel and there is no such limitation mentioned. If Retribution can give you up to 50% of bonus damage, than its even better than I thought. Can anybody please check how precisely Retribution formula works?
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Thanatos
Thanatos


Known Hero
posted July 01, 2008 12:04 AM
Edited by Thanatos at 00:04, 01 Jul 2008.

Quote:
Retribution means no flaming arrow. Tactics is more useful than battle frenzy if you already pick up flaming arrow I think, usually I just have expert attack with two perks.


It's not all that strong in long games. Non- flaming arrow ballista can also be a great help in creeping. After a certain point your troops start dealing far more damage than any ballista could ever dream to do so frenzy + retribution is really the superior option then. If you think you can finish the game within several weeks though flaming arrows owns.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 01, 2008 12:44 AM

Then there's always rallying cry.
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You are truly a monster, Blizz. Truly
-Gnomes2169

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted July 01, 2008 06:02 AM
Edited by Mytical at 06:47, 01 Jul 2008.

Sorry this is a work in progress .  It is taking a bit longer then anticipated as I have been working longer hours then normal this week.  Some things have been added and corrected to make more sense.
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