|
| Thread: Is inferno overpowered? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · NEXT» |
|
Zwok
Adventuring Hero
|
posted June 29, 2008 08:53 PM |
|
|
Poll Question:
Is inferno overpowered?
I spent the whole day playing with Inferno, played single player vs. AI, played multiplayer in both duel and standard mode and also tested some things with the help of the editor. One of the last tests I made was Dougal (The AI) fighting vs. Nymus (Me). I had two tests, one with two level 15 heroes and one with two level 40 heroes. In test one Dougal had exactly 10 weeks of each Haven units (standard growth, no Citadel) while I had 6 weeks of each Inferno units. In the second test Dougal had 80 weeks while I had 40. In both tests Nymus won with a huge advantage. At the end of the level 40 battle I had enough units on the battlefield to kill another hundred or two Archangels.
I guess everybody knows the 3x3 duel mode trick with Nymus and Karli, (Mass summon then switch and all your summoned and normal units get mass Stone Skin/Evasion) which clearly is also overpowered.
Allot of people say that rushing with Haven is the most powerful strategy, however while playing vs. both computer and human opponents I noticed that countering it with Inferno is really easy.
Inferno most likely has the easiest creeping, both late game and early game due to gating and a wonderful skill - Hellfire. Even one single Succubus with a Hellfire + Searing Fires ‘can’ do quite allot of damage, one single Pit Spawn can do thousands of damage against large packs of units (easily abused vs. Peasants, Sprites etc). I’m quite sure somebody will post about Havens or Sylvan’s creeping with archers. It’s not even half as good on heroic difficulty (I’m not sure what you guys play) because most neutral stacks will come close to your archers, kill the units defending them and severely damage the archers too. Flying and Shooting neutrals will chop your archers like nothing while Inferno units can quickly gate or rush to intercept the enemy even on the first steps (Imps having great initiative, Elder Demons jump, Fire Hounds rushing). Also Inferno has the highest creature damage of all factions, only Sylvan with Avenger lucky hits can compare.
This is not an "I'm crying out loud because a big mean Inferno guy killed me topic".
I made this topic mainly to find out the opinions of other people about Inferno, and hoping to get some info on possible countering Inferno. I'm actually a Barbarian player, so having "Back to the Void" Makes Inferno allot less threatening then it is to other factions. But it’s still annoying when Inferno has such a huge advantage in multiplayer games.
|
|
samiekl
Supreme Hero
|
posted June 29, 2008 09:02 PM |
|
|
|
Doomforge says: "Where do these guys come from?"
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 29, 2008 09:28 PM |
|
Edited by Fauch at 21:28, 29 Jun 2008.
|
|
I'm really not experienced with inferno but it seemed to me that gating isn't that good because it makes you lose a precious time (it's good with horses, familiars and cerberi, but can be very bad with other units)
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted June 29, 2008 10:58 PM |
|
|
I'm surprised anyone would consider the demons overpowered heck a while ago we were discussing if they are underpowered. They have many handicaps but they can perform fine - nothing more nothing less.
Rushing with haven is pathetic and earlygame with inferno is not a lot better. Hellfire will not clear druids, hunters, poltergeists or wind dancers. And when I say creeping I mean fast week 1-2 creeping, not taking the time till you gather army. And if you read the recent inferno thread you'll see that not only do they have a challenging earlygame but their town is resource intensive as well.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
HartZa
Known Hero
watchout graveyards!
|
|
posted June 29, 2008 11:00 PM |
|
Edited by HartZa at 23:01, 29 Jun 2008.
|
|
Hard early game creeping makes inferno balanced factions while its later very powerful. Sure gating+hellfire helps greatly in creeping but you still lost some units when attacking against shooters.
|
|
Thanatos
Known Hero
|
|
posted June 29, 2008 11:20 PM |
|
|
Inferno is not overpowered. Many heroes have a downright bad early game and Inferno has several very good skills as 2% skills (most notably light magic and leadership) while several mostly useless ones are common (sorcery (unless you go for a counterspeller) and destructive). They also have a mostly useless magic school in their guild (destructive), something that no other faction suffers from (even dungeon can find a use for summoning).
Also, your test means almost nothing because it was against the AI, which is, as we all know, not the brightest AI ever made. If you would do the same test against a human player of equal skill you would probably be crushed.
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 29, 2008 11:24 PM |
|
|
lol, of course, the AI army was twice as big.
btw, why do many people seem to like hellfire? deals small damage, has only 30% chances to trigger and costs mana. I would rather get tactics and frenzy.
|
|
Thanatos
Known Hero
|
|
posted June 29, 2008 11:29 PM |
|
|
Quote:
lol, of course, the AI army was twice as big.
btw, why do many people seem to like hellfire? deals small damage, has only 30% chances to trigger and costs mana. I would rather get tactics and frenzy.
Well, it's at least a use for the generally big mana pool of the demon lords, otherwise all that knowledge would go to waste unless you go for dark magic. Damage depends on spell power, and can be pretty good if you manage to get it up a little. It's primarily used for creeping though, where it suddenly can give the damage potential of small stacks of succubi or something a huge boost.
|
|
Cleave
Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
|
|
posted June 30, 2008 01:33 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
lol, of course, the AI army was twice as big.
btw, why do many people seem to like hellfire? deals small damage, has only 30% chances to trigger and costs mana. I would rather get tactics and frenzy.
Well, it's at least a use for the generally big mana pool of the demon lords, otherwise all that knowledge would go to waste unless you go for dark magic. Damage depends on spell power, and can be pretty good if you manage to get it up a little. It's primarily used for creeping though, where it suddenly can give the damage potential of small stacks of succubi or something a huge boost.
I hate Hellfire. Probably because I always go for Dark Magic with Demon Lords and I hate running out of Mana because of this so called perk.
Without Dark Magic I don't really know how to handle big armies or huge neutral stacks (especially casters, shooters or high tier creatures).
Dark Magic is always effective (you can always cast slow on the undead).
____________
13 Heroes
|
|
Zwok
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 30, 2008 07:36 AM |
|
|
Quote:
lol, of course, the AI army was twice as big.
btw, why do many people seem to like hellfire? deals small damage, has only 30% chances to trigger and costs mana. I would rather get tactics and frenzy.
Another person that seems to play some game thats not related to homm5, Hellfire can do multiple times the regular damage of your units.
Quote:
Hard early game creeping makes inferno balanced factions while its later very powerful. Sure gating+hellfire helps greatly in creeping but you still lost some units when attacking against shooters.
I never lose any units with inferno unless I'm up against hordes of flyers or shooters. While playing with other factions even sprites and wind dancers can squash you.
Quote:
I'm surprised anyone would consider the demons overpowered heck a while ago we were discussing if they are underpowered. They have many handicaps but they can perform fine - nothing more nothing less.
Rushing with haven is pathetic and earlygame with inferno is not a lot better. Hellfire will not clear druids, hunters, poltergeists or wind dancers. And when I say creeping I mean fast week 1-2 creeping, not taking the time till you gather army. And if you read the recent inferno thread you'll see that not only do they have a challenging earlygame but their town is resource intensive as well.
I guess your more experienced then me but how do you explain this. While playing on the "Former friends map" (Not sure if I translated it correctly) through ubisoft multiplayer, against a Haven opponent I could get to the middle of the map and get the tier 7 creatures beginning of week 2. My Haven counterpart couldn’t kill the druids guarding the bridge because his archers would instantly die, while my fury of 1 stack cerberi hell fired the crap (Excuse my French~) out of the druids.
Perhaps we could play on ubisoft and you would show me why inferno is 'Handicapped;
Quote:
I'm really not experienced with inferno but it seemed to me that gating isn't that good because it makes you lose a precious time (it's good with horses, familiars and cerberi, but can be very bad with other units)
Seems like your not playing homm5 at all, actually its good with all units except horses and cerberi because they can attack the enemy from turn one and get no retaliation. (Unless you get instant gating of course)
It’s sad to see this thread didn’t realy get informative. All there is here is words, how about some facts? I would like to read your experience playing vs inferno and winning easily, or some comparisions. Then I would share your opinion about Inferno being weak.
|
|
Laue
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 30, 2008 08:12 AM |
|
|
As an inferno player (Though I am a newb still) I can say isn't that much overpowered, as you can almost double your army with swift gating + swarming gate. But the problem with inferno is that they are glass cannons. But that's why gating is for I guess. If originals can hold out until gates appear, they have quite a chance to win.
____________
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 30, 2008 10:26 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I spent the whole day playing with Inferno, played single player vs. AI, played multiplayer in both duel and standard mode and also tested some things with the help of the editor. One of the last tests I made was Dougal (The AI) fighting vs. Nymus (Me). I had two tests, one with two level 15 heroes and one with two level 40 heroes. In test one Dougal had exactly 10 weeks of each Haven units (standard growth, no Citadel) while I had 6 weeks of each Inferno units. In the second test Dougal had 80 weeks while I had 40. In both tests Nymus won with a huge advantage. At the end of the level 40 battle I had enough units on the battlefield to kill another hundred or two Archangels.
I guess everybody knows the 3x3 duel mode trick with Nymus and Karli, (Mass summon then switch and all your summoned and normal units get mass Stone Skin/Evasion) which clearly is also overpowered.
Allot of people say that rushing with Haven is the most powerful strategy, however while playing vs. both computer and human opponents I noticed that countering it with Inferno is really easy.
Inferno most likely has the easiest creeping, both late game and early game due to gating and a wonderful skill - Hellfire. Even one single Succubus with a Hellfire + Searing Fires ‘can’ do quite allot of damage, one single Pit Spawn can do thousands of damage against large packs of units (easily abused vs. Peasants, Sprites etc). I’m quite sure somebody will post about Havens or Sylvan’s creeping with archers. It’s not even half as good on heroic difficulty (I’m not sure what you guys play) because most neutral stacks will come close to your archers, kill the units defending them and severely damage the archers too. Flying and Shooting neutrals will chop your archers like nothing while Inferno units can quickly gate or rush to intercept the enemy even on the first steps (Imps having great initiative, Elder Demons jump, Fire Hounds rushing). Also Inferno has the highest creature damage of all factions, only Sylvan with Avenger lucky hits can compare.
This is not an "I'm crying out loud because a big mean Inferno guy killed me topic".
I made this topic mainly to find out the opinions of other people about Inferno, and hoping to get some info on possible countering Inferno. I'm actually a Barbarian player, so having "Back to the Void" Makes Inferno allot less threatening then it is to other factions. But it’s still annoying when Inferno has such a huge advantage in multiplayer games.
Hey come on, inferno is not overpowered.
True that in late game it can bash haven and the others, except sylvan wyngaal, you'll dead in first turn, yeah i know the one that is OP is not the wyngaal or sylvan itself, it's the familiar ground, but most maps are 80% grass.
Gating is, well, a very good racial, though againts weak fast faction like dungeon, it's rarely used because you can win in first turn if you charge all your units than gate them, and againts sylvan, sometimes better to gate some units, especially if the obstacle help you and you're not fighting in grassy terrain. To be effectively used againts sylvan, urgash call is a must, but in ToTE its prerequisite sucks. I agree with you, it's a very good racial.
About early hellfire, yeah, in heroic, it work wonder againts druids, shooters, etc except archmage. In heroic normal maps, most faction have hard time, except few of them, and inferno with hellfire is among the few.
I never try the map you mentioned, still, i test it in imba maps like War of the World in green position, only few faction that can break it in early week 2 or late week 1, and inferno with hellfire is among the few, forget haven and sylvan, they will never break it as fast as inferno, so in this part, again, i agree with you. Still, people mostly play on hard difficulty, and this instantly flip anything in heroic.
About that 80 and 40 week army, no wonder you find inferno too OP, that is a battle in dreamworld. Speaking about dreamworld battle, Try this, create a test map, there are 2 factions, one is inferno, the other is up to you, both ultimates are unlocked, both have pendant of mastery, both are assumed to have 8 town from day 1, give both of them one year army or more. Inferno is the instant winner, especially with urgash call and pendant of mastery, the only faction that can stand a chance is haven, because it can a mass great number of paladins, still there are limits to gold and units maximum digits, while inferno can break this rules via summon pit lord, you have 2 archdevil, real and gated, those two use of their summon pit lord, then two summoned pit lord gate, the number of your tier 6 units far exceed those paladins, and your tier 7 units are twice of haven's tier 7. But forget this, this is only a dream, it never happen unless you make an agreement with your opponent.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted June 30, 2008 11:23 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I guess your more experienced then me but how do you explain this. While playing on the "Former friends map" (Not sure if I translated it correctly) through ubisoft multiplayer, against a Haven opponent I could get to the middle of the map and get the tier 7 creatures beginning of week 2. My Haven counterpart couldn’t kill the druids guarding the bridge because his archers would instantly die, while my fury of 1 stack cerberi hell fired the crap (Excuse my French~) out of the druids.
Perhaps we could play on ubisoft and you would show me why inferno is 'Handicapped;
Sure it's possible but can you always do that? I bet there was a ballista involved as well. As for haven it probably has the weakest creeping in H5 but on week 2 I have managed lots of archmages with flaming ballista, 6 stacks of peasants and stone spikes. That was on RR and it was pretty risky as I survived with 1 peasant but I could control the outcome from the beginning even though all 4 stacks(4x6) acted first.
I'd be up for a game but I can only play through hamachi, ubi gives me an error. Still that would prove nothing, inferno's only handicap is when you get shooter/caster neutrals, otherwise it is fine. Oh and when you can't get warmachines and have to use every cheap trick available to avoid losses - not an inherent weakness but I hate it.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 30, 2008 11:54 AM |
|
Edited by Fauch at 11:55, 30 Jun 2008.
|
Quote:
Quote:
lol, of course, the AI army was twice as big.
btw, why do many people seem to like hellfire? deals small damage, has only 30% chances to trigger and costs mana. I would rather get tactics and frenzy.
Another person that seems to play some game thats not related to homm5, Hellfire can do multiple times the regular damage of your units.
?? yeah, maybe if you use stacks of 1 succubus, but the damage seems low for the cost, and 30% chance doesn't seem very reliable.
Quote:
Quote:
I'm really not experienced with inferno but it seemed to me that gating isn't that good because it makes you lose a precious time (it's good with horses, familiars and cerberi, but can be very bad with other units)
Seems like your not playing homm5 at all, actually its good with all units except horses and cerberi because they can attack the enemy from turn one and get no retaliation. (Unless you get instant gating of course)
I only played inferno once in scenario, but I got swift gating (or whatever it's called, it makes your unit lose less time when they gate) and even if they gated, the horses could still attack before the enemy. in some cases the cerberi could too. but with slower creatures I think it's a big risk, because it makes them lose much time, and you don't even know if the gated stacks will have the time to act.
|
|
samiekl
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 30, 2008 12:34 PM |
|
|
Quote:
As for haven it probably has the weakest creeping in H5
Since when? You can break let's fight in day 1 week 3 without warmachines.
|
|
Zwok
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 30, 2008 12:42 PM |
|
Edited by Zwok at 12:43, 30 Jun 2008.
|
Seems like we couldn’t come to a Consensus, perhaps all the factions in homm5 are equally balanced depending on the map and specific situation. But I still don't see how other factions could compare to Inferno if we take all variables in mind such as creeping, rushing, map controlling etc. Even though most of you clarified Inferno being a below average faction I just don’t see any possible way to get more power with other factions. Even though you could creep better with necropolis, Infernos units in lesser stacks synergize very well with demon lords skills which makes them true powerhouses.
Of course in ideal situations against a Sylvan that managed to find enough Inferno neutrals to avenger your units or a Necromancer with his ultimate or some crazy Dwarf with Armageddon tactics could squash Inferno. But seriously how often do you get the exact skills you need and weak neutrals like zombies near the mines you need for perfect creeping. My whole "Inferno is overpowered" idea is based on how good the faction is in global not in some specific moment. Inferno has the largest variety of skill builds and ways to develop the castle while other factions will most likely pick only one specific hero (Probably the one with best creeping) and always pick the same skills. However if it’s not possible or that strategy wouldn’t work very well at some point you are doomed, however Inferno feels great in almost any situation. As an example - Dungeon or Fortress with Armageddon tactics would be absolutely useless vs. a hero with good fire protection artifacts and skills. Sure some hero like Wyngaal or Jhora could be great in endgame but what if an Inferno hero rushes you? Inferno gets a great opportunity to win because of its unpredictability, the same hero could be used for both late and early game with absolutely different skills while other factions are too predictable and counterable.
Excuse me if I sound like an idiot but that is my experience with playing with and against Inferno.
Quote:
Quote:
As for haven it probably has the weakest creeping in H5
Since when? You can break let's fight in day 1 week 3 without warmachines.
Converting all your units into archers and then getting confusion cast on them doesnt mean your creeping went very well.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted June 30, 2008 01:08 PM |
|
Edited by Elvin at 13:10, 30 Jun 2008.
|
Sure you can do that but others can week 2 even if not always. And seriously you can't claim that haven is as fast as some magic factions or say the orcs. Yes they can perform fine if they get warmachines but that's the only way to touch certain neutrals early and with little risk. You know that better than me.
And why are we even talking about let's fight a map with 2 towns and lvl 2 dwelling? Of course you have an easier break there.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 30, 2008 01:38 PM |
|
|
Quote:
As for haven it probably has the weakest creeping in H5
cool, at least I know it's not entirely because of my inexperience if I was slow creeping with them  (actually I guess upgrading my archers on day 2 could have helped a lot but it was way too expensive (10 stones  ))
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted June 30, 2008 01:47 PM |
|
|
I always do but seriously without warmachines there are many neutrals that can hurt you early. Most tier 2 are ranged, assassins, saboteurs, firehounds, poltergeists(talk about rolling a dice), then there are casters.. All you have is peasant fodder and crossbowmen, lose some and you'll get slower.
The ones that have a good time creeping are Dougal and Vittorio, rest so-so.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 30, 2008 01:54 PM |
|
Edited by Fauch at 13:55, 30 Jun 2008.
|
I had maeve. 1st fights for the sawmill and the stone mine were against skeleton archers and assassins. I thought it would be quite easy, but actually I lost many units (like half of the peasants and maybe 10 archers. fortunately I recruited dougal day 1 in the tavern so I had a lots of them)
I saw a friend playing with vittorio and his creeping was quite impressive. it looked like mindless shooting with the ballista and he blasted everything out of his way 
|
| |
|
|
