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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted June 30, 2008 02:03 PM |
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Quote:
I saw a friend playing with vittorio and his creeping was quite impressive. it looked like mindless shooting with the ballista and he blasted everything out of his way 
Heroes with war machines are known to be overpowered early. Nival never fixed that anyway 
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2008 02:06 PM |
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Quote:
Sure you can do that but others can week 2 even if not always. And seriously you can't claim that haven is as fast as some magic factions or say the orcs. Yes they can perform fine if they get warmachines but that's the only way to touch certain neutrals early and with little risk. You know that better than me.
And why are we even talking about let's fight a map with 2 towns and lvl 2 dwelling? Of course you have an easier break there.
I said without warmachines. With them, you can break in week 2. Without that lvl 2 building. Don't take my word for it, just try it yourself.
Sure it's not as fast as magic factions, but saying they have the weakest creeping in tote is a little too much. They fare a lot better than dwarves or inferno.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 30, 2008 02:23 PM |
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Ok I exaggerated a bit 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2008 02:25 PM |
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You're forgiven 
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2008 02:50 PM |
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so far I had the easiest creeping with inferno, because of quasits being numerous, violent and fast, but there are creatures you just can't beat (or not easily) with only quasits (and some dogs) but I haven't played the imba sylvan army in scenario yet.
or maybe I had an easiest creeping when I played academy? saboteurs are good and I got mark of the wizard quite fast.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted June 30, 2008 03:34 PM |
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Sylvan is imba in late, in grassy map ofc, but wyngaal still posses serious threat when the battle not occur in grass terrain .
How fast and easy Inferno creeping depends on many situation, same with the other faction.
Fortress for example, always claimed as the slowest, but it can become the fastest (without ingvar and karli).
Academy creeping is easy, on par with dungeon.
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Seems like we couldn’t come to a Consensus, perhaps all the factions in homm5 are equally balanced depending on the map and specific situation. But I still don't see how other factions could compare to Inferno if we take all variables in mind such as creeping, rushing, map controlling etc. Even though most of you clarified Inferno being a below average faction I just don’t see any possible way to get more power with other factions. Even though you could creep better with necropolis, Infernos units in lesser stacks synergize very well with demon lords skills which makes them true powerhouses.
Of course in ideal situations against a Sylvan that managed to find enough Inferno neutrals to avenger your units or a Necromancer with his ultimate or some crazy Dwarf with Armageddon tactics could squash Inferno. But seriously how often do you get the exact skills you need and weak neutrals like zombies near the mines you need for perfect creeping. My whole "Inferno is overpowered" idea is based on how good the faction is in global not in some specific moment. Inferno has the largest variety of skill builds and ways to develop the castle while other factions will most likely pick only one specific hero (Probably the one with best creeping) and always pick the same skills. However if it’s not possible or that strategy wouldn’t work very well at some point you are doomed, however Inferno feels great in almost any situation. As an example - Dungeon or Fortress with Armageddon tactics would be absolutely useless vs. a hero with good fire protection artifacts and skills. Sure some hero like Wyngaal or Jhora could be great in endgame but what if an Inferno hero rushes you? Inferno gets a great opportunity to win because of its unpredictability, the same hero could be used for both late and early game with absolutely different skills while other factions are too predictable and counterable.
Excuse me if I sound like an idiot but that is my experience with playing with and against Inferno.
Inferno units in lesser stack synergize well with demon lord skill happens only in normap maps (mostly Ubi made maps), in player custom maps, like BfH, Let's fight or Hourglass, you will rarely use demon lord skill, i mean hellfire become less potent, mark of damned is waste of level, same with consume corpse, unless you aim for swift gating.
It's not that you're wrong, but people will mostly like to play custom maps. Custom maps are always easy, you don't need to think that hard in creeping.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted June 30, 2008 04:14 PM |
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Quote:
Custom maps are always easy, you don't need to think that hard in creeping.
You are confusing me so much. Let's Fight and Rat Race are much harder than Mystic's Vale or Warlords imo.
Doesn't easy/hard creeping depend on what neutrals you get, not the map?
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted June 30, 2008 05:16 PM |
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Quote:
You are confusing me so much. Let's Fight and Rat Race are much harder than Mystic's Vale or Warlords imo.
Doesn't easy/hard creeping depend on what neutrals you get, not the map?
About mystic vale, how come it is easier than let's fight, they are the same, both are easy. Warlords is harder, in this map, forget about creeping neutral, do you ever try to play warlord with 7 veteran player equal to your skill, things that you'll creep are heroes not neutrals, player controlled heroes are always harder than any neutrals.
Custom maps are easy because you are allowed to lv up a lot before breaking the guardian and face your opponent, and custom maps are always a rich map.
Try another ubi maps heroic difficulty, there are poor maps similar with warlords which allow you to reach a maximum of lv 6 (if you're lucky ofc) before breaking lots of tier 4 or 5, it's way lot harder than let's fight in heroic difficulty if you want to break it in week 2 early (no dungeon or academy or orc), you may find war machine in lv 2 or 3, but the chance is too rare, even if you use a faction with 15% chance on it, but if i assume this is no war machine game, it's a lot harder. By similar with warlords, i mean after you break the guardian with only lv 5 or 6 hero, you'll face another opponent (not 1 but more than 4), some player will backstab you, waiting you to be weakened by your opponent. If you're unlucky you'll leave the game in early week 3 or by the end of week 2.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2008 06:01 PM |
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Quote:
Custom maps are easy because you are allowed to lv up a lot before breaking the guardian and face your opponent, and custom maps are always a rich map.
is it one of the reason why league players seem to be able to do crazy things? (I only played ubi's and random maps)
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted June 30, 2008 06:06 PM |
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Quote:
do you ever try to play warlord with 7 veteran player equal to your skill, things that you'll creep are heroes not neutrals, player controlled heroes are always harder than any neutrals.
Well have you? Heroes 5 barely supports multiplayer between 2 people let alone 8.
I understand your point now, maps like battle for honor etc. are very rich. Fine.
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Zwok
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 30, 2008 08:19 PM |
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I think I understood what the problem of this topic is. You’re talking about maps where you start with a level 10-20 city and an army in your garrison. I NEVER played those maps, it’s just not fun for me. I'm not sure if you understand this but there’s absolutely nothing in common playing on heroic with a built city and a garrison of units and playing on heroic with a level one city and a few tier ones. This is probably why you all praised sylvan and other factions so much. There’s absolutely no way your going to creep with a faction other then Necropolis or Inferno without losing any units from day one (Unless of course you encounter only slow moving neutrals which you can dodge forever and kill with your heroes melee). This clears up allot for me, next time I should be more precise of what I'm talking about.
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Cleave
Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
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posted June 30, 2008 08:32 PM |
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Quote:
There’s absolutely no way your going to creep with a faction other then Necropolis or Inferno without losing any units from day one (Unless of course you encounter only slow moving neutrals which you can dodge forever and kill with your heroes melee).
To clear things up, this statement is not correct. Inferno is certainly not the easiest faction for creeping.
I don't mean to be rude but you should seriously play with other factions a little more before posting comments such as these.
It can't be serious. If it's a joke well you got me. 
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13 Heroes
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carcity
Supreme Hero
Blind Sage
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posted June 30, 2008 09:36 PM |
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In my eyes inferno is not overpowered. if you use your strategy (1 succubus only) then you can kiss that succubus goodbye against high initiative creatures (like skelletons or blood furies). and you can't test their skill against AI. take a match versus an experienced player like Elvin or Fauch or anyone (but me). and you will see that they are not as overpowered as you say.
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Why can't you save anybody?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2008 09:47 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 21:49, 30 Jun 2008.
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I learned some cool strategies thanks to the forum, but I'm not very experienced (or maybe it depends on what you call experienced, I think I have less than 100 hours of play, in scenario against the AI only, and in duel against my friend and the AI)
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Thanatos
Known Hero
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posted July 01, 2008 12:23 AM |
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I think I understood what the problem of this topic is. You’re talking about maps where you start with a level 10-20 city and an army in your garrison. I NEVER played those maps, it’s just not fun for me. I'm not sure if you understand this but there’s absolutely nothing in common playing on heroic with a built city and a garrison of units and playing on heroic with a level one city and a few tier ones. This is probably why you all praised sylvan and other factions so much. There’s absolutely no way your going to creep with a faction other then Necropolis or Inferno without losing any units from day one (Unless of course you encounter only slow moving neutrals which you can dodge forever and kill with your heroes melee). This clears up allot for me, next time I should be more precise of what I'm talking about.
Non-Deleb inferno earlygame creeping is actually pretty bad, having a developed town with an army in it from the start is a big advantage for them since they rely more on troops than on spells. I really don't see how you can creep so well with inferno, in my experience it's generally terrible until you get a decent stack of cerberi/ firehounds. Imp gating is too slow unless you're up against slow walkers and they are extremely fragile, yet it is very important that you loose as few of them as possible since they are a vital creature against spellcasters (you can't use them as fodder like you can with havens' peasants for example). Unupgraded demons are plain crap, hellhounds die once again too easily since they don't have no retaliation yet, and your first shooter only comes at level 4, which takes a while to reach. I really don't see many positive points here...
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted July 01, 2008 03:32 AM |
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Quote:
is it one of the reason why league players seem to be able to do crazy things? (I only played ubi's and random maps)
Yup, in normal map you can do the same, but it take much more time, example: in normal map it is almost impossible to bring down 40 tier 7 in late week 2 or early week 3, and it is impossible if you play in heroic, however you can do it in custom maps
Mostly people hate TBS game because it's time consuming, that's why many prefer custom maps, normal maps usually take longer to finish, if you don't set the limit time of each turn ofc. At least if you want to play a very very long game that can take more than one day, first your opponent must agree, and in online nobody want it, though you can do it in LAN with your friends.
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Well have you? Heroes 5 barely supports multiplayer between 2 people let alone 8.
I understand your point now, maps like battle for honor etc. are very rich. Fine.
I tried it in LAN ofc. No one wants it in online.
Rich map realy kill the purpose of inferno demon lord skills, you can build cerberus/firehounds and succubuss seducer/mistress in early day of week 1 making hellfire and mark of damned useless, you just build one of those or both, and you can creep as much as you want. The strategy involved in this thing is far simpler than if you play very poor map and start with town lv 1 and the creeps are tier 2 or higher, that's why i said it's too easy.
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I think I understood what the problem of this topic is. You’re talking about maps where you start with a level 10-20 city and an army in your garrison. I NEVER played those maps, it’s just not fun for me. I'm not sure if you understand this but there’s absolutely nothing in common playing on heroic with a built city and a garrison of units and playing on heroic with a level one city and a few tier ones. This is probably why you all praised sylvan and other factions so much. There’s absolutely no way your going to creep with a faction other then Necropolis or Inferno without losing any units from day one (Unless of course you encounter only slow moving neutrals which you can dodge forever and kill with your heroes melee). This clears up allot for me, next time I should be more precise of what I'm talking about.
Maybe i'm the only want that agree with most of your statement.
Yup, that's why they laugh at you, because you play non custom maps in heroic, well, i'm very similar like you, i also hate map that start with more than lv 2 town, the difficulty is up to my opponent, though i prefer heroic too.
I usually talk to them how wonderful demon lord skill like hellfire, mark of damned and consume corpse and they just laugh, that's because in normal maps we need those three badly, but in custom maps, there are absolutely no need for one of those. Because you can lv up a lot, so you can delay hellfire and mark of damned and wait for dark magic or war machine which is a lot better.
In normal maps like war of the worlds, if i'm at green position and in heroic difficulty, i will 100% choose hellfire and mark of damned than war machine, because you can only lv up to lv 6, waiting for war machine will doom me, waiting for dark magic = instant leave the game, this map is poor, and low lv dark magic never help in breaking with 1 SP demon lord, and i have no resources to build mage guild more than lv 2.
Actually, in normal maps heroic, sylvan is easy for inferno, tried it three times in war of the worlds green position in heroic as sylvan, and i leave the game in week 3  Yeah, green position is handicaped, but that's the challenge.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted July 01, 2008 05:01 AM |
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Online play is played at hard level usually.
And I like mark of the damned who are these people that don't?
Also I've played games over a couple of days with people.
You know 7 people who will play heroes in LAN with you? I guess I'm jealous of all my friends in real life I could get maybe 3 or 4 to play heroes with me.
And they would want to play heroes 3.
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Zwok
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 01, 2008 07:58 AM |
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Quote:
Non-Deleb inferno earlygame creeping is actually pretty bad, having a developed town with an army in it from the start is a big advantage for them since they rely more on troops than on spells. I really don't see how you can creep so well with inferno, in my experience it's generally terrible until you get a decent stack of cerberi/ firehounds. Imp gating is too slow unless you're up against slow walkers and they are extremely fragile, yet it is very important that you loose as few of them as possible since they are a vital creature against spellcasters (you can't use them as fodder like you can with havens' peasants for example). Unupgraded demons are plain crap, hellhounds die once again too easily since they don't have no retaliation yet, and your first shooter only comes at level 4, which takes a while to reach. I really don't see many positive points here...
Look I don’t want to hurt your feelings but please play with any faction on Heroic difficulty on a map that doesn’t have only tier ones guarding mines. I want to see you killing horde of shooters on day one and not losing all your army with any faction but Inferno or Necropolis. Imp gating is too slow? What perhaps you played on easy mode and always rush the neutrals? The point of gating is to get a free meat shield that can absorb retaliation + block movement + block shooters of enemy neutrals and give you a chance to dodge the enemy which works wonders.
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Maybe i'm the only want that agree with most of your statement.
Yup, that's why they laugh at you, because you play non custom maps in heroic, well, i'm very similar like you, i also hate map that start with more than lv 2 town, the difficulty is up to my opponent, though i prefer heroic too.
I usually talk to them how wonderful demon lord skill like hellfire, mark of damned and consume corpse and they just laugh, that's because in normal maps we need those three badly, but in custom maps, there are absolutely no need for one of those. Because you can lv up a lot, so you can delay hellfire and mark of damned and wait for dark magic or war machine which is a lot better.
In normal maps like war of the worlds, if i'm at green position and in heroic difficulty, i will 100% choose hellfire and mark of damned than war machine, because you can only lv up to lv 6, waiting for war machine will doom me, waiting for dark magic = instant leave the game, this map is poor, and low lv dark magic never help in breaking with 1 SP demon lord, and i have no resources to build mage guild more than lv 2.
Actually, in normal maps heroic, sylvan is easy for inferno, tried it three times in war of the worlds green position in heroic as sylvan, and i leave the game in week 3 Yeah, green position is handicaped, but that's the challenge.
Well atleast somebody shares my point of view. I just didnt know that most people played custom maps, actualy yesterday was the first time I tried a scenario map where you start with a level 20 city and that made me sad! Maps with 2-3 gold mines next to your castle guarded by golems, ofcourse people like Sylvan for those maps.
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In my eyes inferno is not overpowered. if you use your strategy (1 succubus only) then you can kiss that succubus goodbye against high initiative creatures (like skelletons or blood furies). and you can't test their skill against AI. take a match versus an experienced player like Elvin or Fauch or anyone (but me). and you will see that they are not as overpowered as you say.
What makes you think there experienced players? I'm not saying that I play better then they do, in fact I never played against them and seeing that they had less trouble with the heroic campaign, I’m not. But So far I had no trouble playing both Ubisoft multiplayer and against the AI on Veteran and Heroic. You seriously want to say 1 stack Succubus’s can’t kill Skeletons or Furies? Whoa man I can kill hundreds of Skeletons with 7 imps, without using any spells that use mana or war machines. Try that with some other factions (Even if the skeletons are split into 4 stacks)
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There’s absolutely no way your going to creep with a faction other then Necropolis or Inferno without losing any units from day one (Unless of course you encounter only slow moving neutrals which you can dodge forever and kill with your heroes melee).
To clear things up, this statement is not correct. Inferno is certainly not the easiest faction for creeping.
I don't mean to be rude but you should seriously play with other factions a little more before posting comments such as these.
It can't be serious. If it's a joke well you got me.
I'm too tired to explain, all I'm going to say is Load a scenario map with a level one city with any factions other then necropolis and inferno and die against the first neutral you encounter then come back to these forums. And no don't say your 20 pixies and 10 blade dancers killed 65 gremlins split into 4 stacks without losing any units.
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zamrai
Adventuring Hero
Moonlight Melody
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posted July 01, 2008 08:15 AM |
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Hey, this guy is right: Inferno IS overpowered!
And so it is Sylvan...and Heaven, and Fortress, and Dungeon, and Necro sometimes too! What the heck?! 
This game is bugged
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carcity
Supreme Hero
Blind Sage
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posted July 01, 2008 09:33 AM |
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Hey, this guy is right: Inferno IS overpowered!
And so it is Sylvan...and Heaven, and Fortress, and Dungeon, and Necro sometimes too! What the heck?!
This game is bugged
either every faction is overpowered or noone is.
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Why can't you save anybody?
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