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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Is inferno overpowered?
Thread: Is inferno overpowered? This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
Zwok
Zwok


Adventuring Hero
posted July 02, 2008 06:09 PM

Quote:
If you open a dungeon is overpowered thread...


I thought you would never ask

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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted July 03, 2008 03:02 AM

Quote:
I'm not sure myself, everybody keeps claiming bout inferno being weak, underpowered, handicapped. Just can't see any possible way to play better with other factions. Perhaps I'm handicapped


Most people said so, but inferno is a balanced faction.

Any faction can become overpowered, it depends on the player.


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Atheist
Atheist


Hired Hero
posted July 03, 2008 08:02 PM

I don't know if the matter is settled but i'd like to point something out about Inferno..
In 1v1 games with no random hero rule, Inferno players choose Deleb most of the times I think. Deleb's easy creeping could give the player a big lead, however when talking about the faction you must take into consideration all the heroes, not only the best one.

In a MP game with 8 players inferno,  the one who gets Deleb has by default the best chances. Of course the skill of the players will decide the game but if we talk about equal skill players, the one with Deleb should win.

Does that make Inferno overpowered? No, not at all..Deleb is the overpowered one (compared to rest of inferno heroes) The faction is about the creatures and town bonuses, first, and only secondly, about the heroes ( at least when making such evaluations.

So, judging how Inferno has no shooter in first week, we can see that it will take more skill to creep , then just corner your gremlins or skellies and shoot them away. Of course there is gating but try to beat Horde of upgraded Defenders in day 1 in Melee games ( town level =1). With 35 imps and 20 horned demons there will be a very hard not to lose some imps against 50+ upg.defenders (it could be even worse monster- sabo-gremlins.)

Take Heritage map.. a melee map ( I use the word melee as in wc3 meaning non-custom, non-scenario) If you are elite or have any intention to become one you play on Heroic.
If you choose Inferno even in single player it will be extremely difficult to develop the town fast enough.

How do you beat lots of master hunters early with inferno?
Answer: you don't ( because you play on heroic and don't have wood to upgrade to cerberus - or if you do, gg - your town development is totally screwed.. You will have to make and early resource silo if you are to have any chance for town development if you don't have golems on the mercury and sulfur mines. The early resource silo leads to not building capitol on time ( day 15).

Inferno is not overpowered... it's rather underpowered, in heroes, in creeping, and in town development and bonuses. ( you don't have anything useful in town, like dungeon for example (merchant+weekly resource is priceless  for only 1000 gold 5w+5o.   Inferno has nothing usefull. Castle even has an extra requirement a useless expensive building. End of the story.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 03, 2008 09:29 PM

Heroic is not an indicator. Heroic mode itself is badly balanced and therefore almost never played. If you want to analyze factions' strength, take only hard mode into consideration.

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Atheist
Atheist


Hired Hero
posted July 03, 2008 11:08 PM

Doomforge, I have read many of your posts here and there and I know you are a good player, but please argument your statement that Heroic is "badly balanced".

I would say that Heroes 3 Impossible was badly balanced ( to start with really nothing.) In h5 you have 10 wood and ore, 5 precious res, and 10000 gold.

First let me try to argue in favor of Heroic difficulty.Look at it this way. Because you have less resources and gold, your decisions matter more. Your BO (build order)matters more.Your starting bonus matters more.(arti or res).The decision to buy or not an extra hero in hope for on-time capitol matters more. Player's economical skills have greater importance. The dillema of what to take from chests
has greater importance. Quite simply, every action you make, like to delay the creeping of sawmill a few days to limit casualties, all these constitute elements that differentiate a good player from a less skilled one. How can that be a bad thing?

It is easy on hard to build all tiers fast and also buy them. It is easy to buy 2 heroes from tavern. But when you have 10k gold every penny counts and good players must know how to exit the opening game with success. A player who builds recklessly all tiers and ignores capitol will be severely punished later on. Of course some races are in slight disadvantage, those who have town hall at level 6 and
those who have extra buildings on tree to capitol and castle
(like stronghold). But the same races have their compensations. Academy has easy creeping, Necro has skellies, Stronhold has rage and can hold their own.

Anyway.. probably for some players it is just too "hard" to play on Heroic.. that's ok with me.. but why do you consider the Hard difficulty as the standard?  Why not Normal difficulty then? in fact normal seems more close to standard, no?
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted July 04, 2008 12:17 AM

Inferno is also not underpowered.  There are some good players out there, who can use inferno to cause some serious damage.  No, inferno is not underpowered, but it's not overpowered either.  It all depends on who plays them, and luck
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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted July 04, 2008 05:21 AM

Quote:
I don't know if the matter is settled but i'd like to point something out about Inferno..
In 1v1 games with no random hero rule, Inferno players choose Deleb most of the times I think. Deleb's easy creeping could give the player a big lead, however when talking about the faction you must take into consideration all the heroes, not only the best one.

In a MP game with 8 players inferno,  the one who gets Deleb has by default the best chances. Of course the skill of the players will decide the game but if we talk about equal skill players, the one with Deleb should win.

Does that make Inferno overpowered? No, not at all..Deleb is the overpowered one (compared to rest of inferno heroes) The faction is about the creatures and town bonuses, first, and only secondly, about the heroes ( at least when making such evaluations.

So, judging how Inferno has no shooter in first week, we can see that it will take more skill to creep , then just corner your gremlins or skellies and shoot them away. Of course there is gating but try to beat Horde of upgraded Defenders in day 1 in Melee games ( town level =1). With 35 imps and 20 horned demons there will be a very hard not to lose some imps against 50+ upg.defenders (it could be even worse monster- sabo-gremlins.)

Take Heritage map.. a melee map ( I use the word melee as in wc3 meaning non-custom, non-scenario) If you are elite or have any intention to become one you play on Heroic.
If you choose Inferno even in single player it will be extremely difficult to develop the town fast enough.

How do you beat lots of master hunters early with inferno?
Answer: you don't ( because you play on heroic and don't have wood to upgrade to cerberus - or if you do, gg - your town development is totally screwed.. You will have to make and early resource silo if you are to have any chance for town development if you don't have golems on the mercury and sulfur mines. The early resource silo leads to not building capitol on time ( day 15).

Inferno is not overpowered... it's rather underpowered, in heroes, in creeping, and in town development and bonuses. ( you don't have anything useful in town, like dungeon for example (merchant+weekly resource is priceless  for only 1000 gold 5w+5o.   Inferno has nothing usefull. Castle even has an extra requirement a useless expensive building. End of the story.


Heroes that start with war machine are always overpowered.

Well, if you look at the thread starter fist post, it's not deleb that make him say inferno overpowered.

Read cafefuly, it's about 40 weeks inferno army win againts 80 weeks haven army.

I guess this has been settled then, i've told Zwok, that scenarion only exist in dream world, i admit, in dream world, inferno is impossible to defeat, well, at least that can happen if you make an agreement with your opponent, but i doubt anyone will agree with that agreement, unless it's another inferno.

I even have a scenario that will further prove that.


There will be no horde of defenders in a map without at least tier 1 dwelling. But if that happens, other factions also can't do it without loses, you said it yourself, town lv 1 and day 1, unless you got war machine hero.

Tier 1 shooter can be blasted with magic, while your demons tank them, if you want to lose few more imps and safe your demons, you can bring that imps to block those shooters via its gating.

Master hunter in normal map scenario like Heritage? you can take them down in week 1, but you must sacrifice several imps. Well, this map is one of my favourite in heroic, and you're right, it's very hard for inferno in heroic difficulty (no deleb), but that's the challenge. The hard part is not because creeping, if you play againts more than two players, there is a high probability that they will backstab you, especially if both are magic town, they will rush you, it's one againts two. Consider the advantage of your surrounding environment and your low tier arties, elemental wraistband will help you ease your fight.

How to build inferno town fast in Map heritage in heroic difficulty? It depends on your BO (build order) and treasure chest and gold pile, i recomend getting city hall asap, in this map, you must calculate carefuly what you want to build and how many units you must buy.

Yeah, that sacrificial pit is very useless.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 04, 2008 08:49 AM

Quote:
Doomforge, I have read many of your posts here and there and I know you are a good player, but please argument your statement that Heroic is "badly balanced".


That's pretty easy. While you are struggling with your first building or guild because the total lack of resources, a warlock is owning the map because all he really needs is stalkers and eldritch arrow, maybe fireball. Same for a necromancer, which accumulates a big army in the first weeks without buying anything short of mage guilds and in the end has a nice army + level 4-5 spells when he rushes you while you have nearly nothing. Heroic favors certain factions and heroes so much that the game would change into "Dungeon vs. Academy vs. Necropolis" because the other factions would have such a hard time catching with those nobody would even bother playing them. Imagine sylvan which don't have a hero that has the instant creeping technique at start, like ballista or destructive. Without the ability to buy creatures, his development would be so slow that it would be not possible to win with a dungeon player, no matter what, unless the map was abundant, or you were extremely skilled.

Quote:
I would say that Heroes 3 Impossible was badly balanced ( to start with really nothing.) In h5 you have 10 wood and ore, 5 precious res, and 10000 gold.


True, but h3 offer a bit more "equal ground" for most of the factions at start.

Quote:
First let me try to argue in favor of Heroic difficulty.Look at it this way. Because you have less resources and gold, your decisions matter more. Your BO (build order)matters more.Your starting bonus matters more.(arti or res).The decision to buy or not an extra hero in hope for on-time capitol matters more.


Imho it does not matter much, because people would stick only to one option, the best, that is, and only to the best earlygame heroes to quickly overcome the resources' shortage. Playing with endgame heroes, like Maeve, would be even more difficult then it is now, so most players would not do it, afraid of not being able to gather enough power to rush/antirush/proceed. And they would use the same ballista clicky clicky every time. Quickly grows old if you ask me.

Quote:
Player's economical skills have greater importance. The dillema of what to take from chests has greater importance. Quite simply, every action you make, like to delay the creeping of sawmill a few days to limit casualties, all these constitute elements that differentiate a good player from a less skilled one. How can that be a bad thing?


Because certain heroes can creep without any creatures at all, and without caring for them. By reducing the abilities of those who depend on army, you make the gap even bigger, and warmachine specialists or warlock become the _best_ choice.

Quote:
It is easy on hard to build all tiers fast and also buy them. It is easy to buy 2 heroes from tavern. But when you have 10k gold every penny counts and good players must know how to exit the opening game with success.


Well, most people enjoy battling with full army, not struggling to buy full pop of peasants due to lack of gold. Another thing that favors other difficulties.

Quote:
A player who builds recklessly all tiers and ignores capitol will be severely punished later on. Of course some races are in slight disadvantage, those who have town hall at level 6 and
those who have extra buildings on tree to capitol and castle
(like stronghold). But the same races have their compensations. Academy has easy creeping, Necro has skellies, Stronhold has rage and can hold their own.


All I can say is that the gap in the factions' creeping, which is small enough to overcome it with skill on hard difficulty, becomes too big factor on heroic.

Quote:
Anyway.. probably for some players it is just too "hard" to play on Heroic.. that's ok with me.. but why do you consider the Hard difficulty as the standard?  Why not Normal difficulty then? in fact normal seems more close to standard, no?


Nope, normal is considered too easy - you can get pretty much whatever you want without any skill at all. Hard is somewhere in between easy and pointless - the perfect mode for multiplayer games. It gives a possibility to win the game with bad creepers, but is hard enough not to be able to get Lvl7 dwelling in the beginning of second week every time. I'd say it's simply the optimal option. Heroic is for single player guys who want the pathetic AI to be some kind of challenge. Even though AI still is no challenge at all. ;<

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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted July 04, 2008 10:10 AM

I guess, it's checkmate for Atheis (from Doomforge)

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Atheist
Atheist


Hired Hero
posted July 04, 2008 11:30 AM

Quote:
I guess, it's checkmate for Atheist (from Doomforge)


Funny you should use that expression - I am a master candidate in chess ( the fairest TBS ever!)

I will admit that I am satisfied by Doomforge's response. Indeed, Dungeon has a too easy creeping with furies vs walkers and spells vs others compared to some other factions, and it has that for very small investments.   Still..I would say that this means the game still needs some more balancing, not that the Hard difficulty is better than the Heroic one.

Quote:
There will be no horde of defenders in a map without at least tier 1 dwelling. But if that happens, other factions also can't do it without loses, you said it yourself, town lv 1 and day 1, unless you got war machine hero.


If u play heroic you will always see hordes of lvl 1 creeps.
Sylvan has best chances due to Pixie with no enemy retal and spray attack. That's why Sylvan can pottentially have very easy creeping if most important creeps are walkers.

Anyway, I think that part of my intervention is slightly offtopic, but when discussing some faction's power, economy must be taken into consideration, that's why i brought up difficulty earlier.
As a conclusion, yea , Hard is generally more fair. It's like in chess , when you have 5 pieces and enemy 6. It is better then you having 1 and him 2.

As for the Inferno army of 40 weeks beating a Heaven army of 80 weeks.. this must be a joke..  

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 04, 2008 11:42 AM

Quote:
Still..I would say that this means the game still needs some more balancing, not that the Hard difficulty is better than the Heroic one.

Ah but that is the point. With things being as they are you must find other ways to balance the odd things out.

Quote:
If u play heroic you will always see hordes of lvl 1 creeps.
Sylvan has best chances due to Pixie with no enemy retal and spray attack. That's why Sylvan can pottentially have very easy creeping if most important creeps are walkers.

On the other hand you may get hordes of shooters..
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 04, 2008 12:17 PM

Hey, I love chess too

And even if heroic was balanced.. People would probably still play hard. More resources = more tactics = less routine. The gameplay is not that strict and less punishing for build/creeping mistakes. Not all people want to fight with this game or the economy to prove they are good players. Some simply want to enjoy it

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 04, 2008 12:21 PM

Recently a guy from toh brought to my attention the fact that many around here like chess But I guess that's not surprising being in a heroes forum.
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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted July 04, 2008 12:31 PM

Elit, Kispagat, Gmmari and to some extent me (i've played from 6 to 10) were professional chess players.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 04, 2008 12:34 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 12:36, 04 Jul 2008.

Well, that can't be a coincidence, then ;P

HoMM and chess must have a lot in common, even if we don't realize it.

I am not that good of a chess player, but I used to win a couple of school cups. The guys were noobs there, though. I owned nearly all of them with good old King's Gambit

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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted July 04, 2008 12:39 PM

I used to like that opening with the horses only (forgot how it is called, hell it's been 15-16 years since i last played chess)

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forest001
forest001


Known Hero
posted July 04, 2008 12:54 PM

yep lots of chess lovers here
and i must admit that heroes is very similar to chess(at least for me), but with much more possibilities.
in heroes you can just like in chess play same battle in millions ways.
and that's the beauty of this game

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Atheist
Atheist


Hired Hero
posted July 04, 2008 02:15 PM

I'm glad to see other heroes fans like chess too.
This reminds me of an article published at a warcraft community forum, that sparked a large discussion about similarities between chess and warcraft.(it's called "Warcraft is good for you") As strategy games, both heroes and warcraft have some similarities with the game of chess, however it is only chess the one in which there is no luck involved, and only pure ability to think. No more Imba, no more white or black is overpowered

But surely the best part of chess for me is the excellence of the AI .

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kermit
kermit


Known Hero
Soul hunter
posted July 04, 2008 02:38 PM

I play chess everyday and heroes nearly as often

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 04, 2008 02:42 PM

As for me I used to play a lot but last time I played was last year on chessmaster. I had reached 1870 or so. Anyway enough offtopic chat
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