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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Tribute to Strategists
Thread: Tribute to Strategists This thread is 18 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 · «PREV / NEXT»
AlexSpl
AlexSpl


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted January 19, 2009 07:32 AM
Edited by AlexSpl at 07:33, 19 Jan 2009.

Elementalists get Wisdom and Magic Schools as if they belong to a might hero class i.e. +6/+4, not +3/+3!

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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted January 26, 2009 05:26 PM

Forgive, I was absent for quite a while. Alex is right, so I included his remark and some previously mentioned stuff, but I didn't mention the AI's wait as yet for it isn't entirely conclusive. There were some remarks by Xarfax that some stuff is wrong, if possible post the corrections, thanks. New version is uploaded.
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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 14, 2009 12:07 AM
Edited by maretti at 00:11, 14 Feb 2009.




____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted February 17, 2009 04:41 PM

I have 2 questions:

1. Why didnt you put the pegasus 1 hex away from the elves, so being the weakest stack they will take the first hit from upper left griffins.

2. Why didnt you split 1 pegas instead of single centaur. As it is the uper right griffin will kill the single centaure imidiatly. And if it was pegas it could have moved lower right.


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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted February 17, 2009 09:28 PM

Ok, summary of Maretti's pics:

Turn order:
1. 5 Pegasus (speed 9) move.
2. 2 Unicorn (8) attack lower Griffins, killing 2 and blinding the stack.
3. Upper right Griffin (7) waits. Their only option was to kill the 1 Centaur.
4. Elf (6) kills 2 upper left Griffins.
5. Lower right Griffin (7) waits. They too had the only option to kill the 1 Centaur.
...

Some implications arise: can the AI calculate possible morale gain in making decisions where to move? For example, we know that it actually does not in almost every case: for example, there perhaps (probably) is some move, not necessarily attacking the 1 Centaur, that either of the Griffin stacks can make and get morale, eventually placing them in range of some other stacks (if not in this fight, then in general anyway). Yet, the game certainly does not check morale when selecting where to move otherwise AI would morale far more often. However, would the AI attack the Centaurs if it would get morale afterwards, that it always knows, and could that morale influence AI's decision?
All in all, I'm curious to hear your opinion in why did the AI wait, although I presume it will be the same as mine . It's just to hard to quantify it, making it difficult to use in reality. Well, when playing for ToH Ceasers, one knew every move in advance AI would make in specific fights based on troops, of course, this is possible only for starting troops for option are closer to finite then infinite and mostly only for specific fight buildings.

I do have a remark for Liophy. I presume you mean that Pegasi have least HP when you say they are weakest? If 10 Griffins attack them, they will do (hero excluded) 30-60 damage, very likely killing one. The 4 left retal for 16-37, average 26,5. Therefore it is quite possible that they will kill 1 Griffin. However, if 10 Griffins attack Elves they will do 34-69, average 51,5, killing 2-5 Elves, 3 in average. The 9 left retal for 14-23 damage, not killing a single Griffin. Therefore, Elves are a far better target when it comes to AI's goal to minimize it's casulties. Of course, hero exclusion is in place, but for that we need the info from Maretti, I don't care calculating hero stats from known damages

I'm doing this in a rush so sorry for possible errors.
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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 17, 2009 09:28 PM

1. Because my cents are gonna slam those upper griffens.

2. Because then i would lose that pegasi. In this case I only lose the centaur and the griffens dont get that far forward.
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 17, 2009 10:12 PM

It seems only 2 hex units make this wait. It seem to be flyers in most cases, but ive seen it from wolf raiders too, so its not just flyers.
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted February 18, 2009 11:31 AM
Edited by liophy at 11:35, 18 Feb 2009.

Quote:
1. Because my cents are gonna slam those upper griffens.

2. Because then i would lose that pegasi. In this case I only lose the centaur and the griffens dont get that far forward.


1. You will slam the upper griffins only becayse the lower were blindend (lucky you). I am sure you didnt make your strategy based on the blinding.

2. 1 pegasus is not big loss. The griffins may get moral (for 3 stacks there is good chance), and the game will get nasty.

Rainalcar - Good point. But the Pegasus will be 4, because i would split 1 for the lower right corner.

I can not say for sure if the griffins will hit the pegasus or the elves, but i thing if there are 4 pegasus they will be the target.




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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 18, 2009 12:49 PM

1. I was actually planning on that blind. If they wernt blinded I would haste my dendroids and bind the lower griffens.

2. Its jebus so losing a couple of elfs in case of moral wont mean much. As I recall I have pretty high def so the damages will be limited.

Besides im not saying its the perfect setup. I didnt post the pictures to show how to beat the griffens. But I think its the first time ive ever seen griffens wait in a con when they could attack. What surprises me is that noone else seem to experience this wait and I see it all the time. Do I have some kind of special edition or do you guys rarely use this tactic?
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 18, 2009 12:51 PM
Edited by maretti at 13:58, 18 Feb 2009.

Units affected by poison will still be affected after they die,  which means you will raise less demons from them. The same is NOT the case with aging. So be carefull with those monarcs.
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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doomnezeu
doomnezeu


Supreme Hero
Miaumiaumiau
posted February 18, 2009 01:05 PM

Quote:
Units affected by poison will still be affected after they die,  which means you will raise less demons from them. So be carefull with those monarcs.


this I didn't know, thanks for the heads-up, mate.
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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted February 18, 2009 02:36 PM

Quote:
I didnt post the pictures to show how to beat the griffens. But I think its the first time ive ever seen griffens wait in a con when they could attack.  


Sorry, i got mislead by the other toppic "what would you do", so by habbit i gave my comment.

Otherwise you are right - its rare and interesting that the griffins waited.

Never happened to me (or at least never mentioned it).

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted February 18, 2009 04:00 PM

Quote:
What surprises me is that noone else seem to experience this wait and I see it all the time. Do I have some kind of special edition or do you guys rarely use this tactic?
That's because most of the other players take Castle on jebus and therefore rarely have 2-hex units in a conservatory. When they take rampart, they play templates where you rarley find cons
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted February 18, 2009 04:21 PM
Edited by liophy at 16:36, 18 Feb 2009.

Quote:
That's because most of the other players take Castle on jebus and therefore rarely have 2-hex units in a conservatory. When they take rampart, they play templates where you rarley find cons


Sorry Angelito, but this time i cant agree with you. As you know - rampart is most popular on Balance templete. And on balance, its almost ALL the time you find AT LEAST one cons.

And little offtopic - they play only Castle on Jebus, because SOD makes them do it. On TE you have a lot more bigger freedom to play full random.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 18, 2009 08:29 PM
Edited by maretti at 20:31, 18 Feb 2009.

Quote:
Quote:
What surprises me is that noone else seem to experience this wait and I see it all the time. Do I have some kind of special edition or do you guys rarely use this tactic?
That's because most of the other players take Castle on jebus and therefore rarely have 2-hex units in a conservatory. When they take rampart, they play templates where you rarley find cons


Seems you are losing touch with the game. You should play more. The fact is it dosent matter whether you have 2 hex units in your lineup. Whats interesting is if you are facing 2 hex creatures.

I used to think castle was best town on jebus aswell. But im pretty sure thats not the case. Its to often you dont find an angeldwell. Ofcourse that dosent mean castle arnt often picked but i know for a fact that many ppl play random towns or uses town elimination. No reson to play TE to balance towns on jebus. Only town that cant compete is tower.

As liophy mentioned that confight with ramp is pretty standart for week 1 apart from the fact that you will often have grand elves instead of elves. Should be played all the time. All temps has cons.

@Liophy: I appriciate you commeting on that fight. No problem in that.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted February 18, 2009 11:13 PM

Quote:

I used to think castle was best town on jebus aswell. But im pretty sure thats not the case. Its to often you dont find an angeldwell. Ofcourse that dosent mean castle arnt often picked but i know for a fact that many ppl play random towns or uses town elimination. No reson to play TE to balance towns on jebus. Only town that cant compete is tower.


The only other town, that match castle or can be even superior is Stronghold. Its almost all the time you have Behemot Crag, its easy to take, its cheap, you start big fights day 2...

Still, Castle is very strong.

What makes it a little bit unbalanced on SOD is the building order. Most of the towns rely on level 2 buildings, and if not present - they suffer. Some towns are obstructed even with 2 level prebuild.
On TE thats solved.

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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted February 19, 2009 01:35 PM

Behemoth's Crag is by far the most probable lvl7 dwell on Jebus. It doesn't mean that others will not appear, but none can, quantitywise, match Behemoths dwell. In average, and even in extremes in many ways, Stronghold is the best town on Jebus.
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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted February 19, 2009 04:13 PM

Quote:
Behemoth's Crag is by far the most probable lvl7 dwell on Jebus.

I suppose it has to do with the price of the unit. Behemots are cheapest. So the dwell is with lowest value. Maybe its my imagination, but cloude temple is the second most often level 7 dwell, and Giants are  second cheapest.

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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted February 19, 2009 04:21 PM

I don't think that I ever understood why this is so (if I did once, I forgot, perhaps value of each dwell is different), but in ancient times me and some others made elaborate testing regarding building appearance on some maps (not only dwells, but them emphasized). Maretti will know, I've sent him some data that regarding.
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted February 24, 2009 08:30 AM

It's not done by price, at least low level dwellings aren't.

I only got to 3000 treasure value in my tests, so I don't know when the different level 7 dwellings first appear. At lower levels, dwells of the same level do not appear at the same treasure value. Dwellings can also appear at different values depending on whether it's a starting zone or a neutral zone with no town.

For example, basilisks, dwarves and pikemen all begin to appear with a treasure value of 1150. However, pikemen appear in any type of zone at this value. But basilisks and dwarves only appear in neutral zones at 1150, and don't appear in starting zones until 1300.

Also, dwarf dwellings appear at 1150, but centaur dwells don't appear until 1700.

My guess is that the balancing was done by the overall town/terrain, not by individual objects.


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