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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 27, 2008 10:08 PM |
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It is something related to a paradox. That's why it's so hard to grasp.
But it isn't a complete paradox. That's why it is understandable.
You aren't really better or worse alive or dead. It would need completely new definitions. But the basic question comes to if it's better to exist or not to exist. Now almost everyone would say that it's better to exist. But how can they know? They don't know what's it like not to exist. Actually anyone can't "not exist". Following me still?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 27, 2008 10:20 PM |
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Well technically we did "not exist" until we were born either 
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 27, 2008 10:27 PM |
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We don't "not exist" because there's nothing to not exist. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 27, 2008 10:49 PM |
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Joonas, you are overlooking a small but important fact: we will die ANYWAY, no matter what.
That's why someone who believes doesn't need to kill himself, and that's why someone who does not believe can still kill himself.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 27, 2008 11:07 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 23:13, 27 Nov 2008.
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Quite the contrary. It's a big fact but I don't talk about it because it doesn't matter. The fact that we die someday doesn't make killing yourself early any more reasonable. Why is the rest of existence any less valuable than the existence before that? The fact if he'd exist for hundred years or five minutes is irrelevant. The point is that he would exist after that point.
Funny fact:
If he'd die at the same moment he does suicide anyway then it would be irrelevant if he did suicide or not.
Note: This post feels incomplete (probably means my intelligence is failing at this level or I'm too tired)
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted November 28, 2008 01:12 AM |
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Edited by Minion at 01:17, 28 Nov 2008.
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Quote:
Joonas: Because they think they'll be better off dead. And that's just not true.
Quote:
Joonas: You aren't really better or worse alive or dead.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 28, 2008 11:06 AM |
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Should I see something in that quote post of yours?
It's not contradicting itself if that's what you were hoping for.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted November 28, 2008 11:24 AM |
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The problem is that you fail to communicate your point.
Suicide is merely an execution of the inevitable. Existence is felt subjectively, not objectively.
Now consider this situation:
Suppose you are very ill. The doctors tell you there are TWO options for you:
1) doing nothing; take pills to relieve the pain, live with it, until you die. It may last a month, it may last a year, it may last even ten years, and in the latter case you may hope on medical progress for your problem.
2) You can undergo an operation; chances for a success would be minimal, since it hasn't been tried, yet. and the prognosis would be bad. In case of a failure you'll never wake from the op coma. In case of a success you'll wake again with high probabilities of being better off than before.
Is option 2 a valid option or not?
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 28, 2008 11:27 AM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 11:33, 28 Nov 2008.
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As far as I see neither one of those are suicide. Chance, no matter how high it is, is completely different case.
My communication skills are weak. Even in finnish so I don't wonder if you don't all get me.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 28, 2008 11:45 AM |
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You didn't answer the question, though.
Suicide would be a 100% chance to end a subjectively unbearable condition with an additional chance of unknown percentage value to transfer into a better condition unlike non-existence.
Of course there would be an additional chance for a transfer to an even worse condition involved, but if that chance would materialize you'd probably have a losing hand anyway, so-to-speak.
Obviously, with your lifetime here being limited no matter what, you would need a perspective, a chance for happiness, a positive outlook in an extendedly unbearable condition to pull through that limited time - for what would you, if the perspective was only intolerable pain? For dying anyway in the end?
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 28, 2008 11:53 AM |
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My whole idea here is based on the idea that the person who does the suicide doesn't believe in afterlife. And for him there is no existence after death. (Me being such a person.)
As I said before if the person believes he has even a slight chance to live on in afterlife suicide is completely understandable to me.
I didn't make that clear before? I really must do better in the future.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 28, 2008 11:58 AM |
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Well that would take a strange atheist-afterlife believer combo, since most religions consider suicide as something bad and screwing up your potential afterlife.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 28, 2008 11:59 AM |
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Edited by Geny at 12:01, 28 Nov 2008.
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But even if the person is 100% sure there is no afterlife, JJ raises another good point. You for something. You always some purpose in life, something to strive for. It could be something monumental like becoming the first man to set foot on Mars or something simple like going out with your friends every weekend and having fun. But it's still a purpose, something worth living for. When all your life is reduced to a painful existence and you have nothing left to "fight" for than why should you just sit and wait for death to come to you when you can come to it instead?
P.S. Am I really advocating suicide now? ... in the Other Side?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 28, 2008 12:01 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 12:06, 28 Nov 2008.
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Quote:
Darwinism. It's a wonderful thing.
Strangely enough, and painfull as it is to admit....
I agree with Mvass.
Quote:
Should the people that encouraged CJ's suicide be charged for it?
In 99,99% of the cases, online wails about contemplating suicide are desperate cries for attention. I find it kind of funny, though. All this materialistic wealth, and still we are depressed... Hmmm I wonder...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 28, 2008 12:03 PM |
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Joonas: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism.. To name a few
That is not "most" to you?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 28, 2008 12:15 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 12:15, 28 Nov 2008.
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Once all the people of the world believed Earth was flat.
Obviously you had a bigger chance to be right in believing the majority rather than the one person who went against it, right ?
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted November 28, 2008 12:16 PM |
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I don't care what is right. You miss the point of believing. It's not trying to judge what is the "most reliable" God/gods/system. It's about finding inner peace and reference to death and existence that makes you not fear it.
And no, religion that has been proved wrong by science (like ancient Greek) is NOT equal to mine. End of story.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted November 28, 2008 12:18 PM |
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Just reading this thing now and saw this:
Several other concerned users called the police when it appeared that Biggs had stopped breathing. As officers entered the room, according to a screen capture of the incident that circulated online, 181 people were watching the video. In the chat room, users typed the abbreviations for "oh my God" and "laughing out loud" before the police covered the webcam.
What complete idiots those people were. How can you say "laugh out loud" if you see the guy has stopped breathing and then police enter the room and cover the webcam? There are some real idiots in this world, and the sooner their damn IP's are blocked then the better the Internet will be.
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make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 28, 2008 12:21 PM |
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Regarding suicide, most people are absolutely sure that taunting a person that indicates a desire to commit suicide is the best way to prevent it ("you don't have the balls to do it", "go on and hang yourself, just stop complaining").
Pretty funny since it definitely won't help someone who is really desperate, and those who jest about suicide won't do it anyway.
So what is the point.
People are so dumb. 
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 28, 2008 12:24 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 12:25, 28 Nov 2008.
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Quote:
I don't care what is right. You miss the point of believing. It's not trying to judge what is the "most reliable" God/gods/system. It's about finding inner peace and reference to death and existence that makes you not fear it.
Quote:
Umm, because they have just as big chance to be right as you do perhaps?
>>>>>>
don't make me laugh
*coughs* contradiiictiiiing.
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And no, religion that has been proved wrong by science (like ancient Greek) is NOT equal to mine. End of story.
I don't believe it has ever been proved wrong? People simply stopped believing it. But it has never been proved wrong.
@ William: I would say the bigger idiot is one who commits suicide in front of his webcam.
Quote:
But believing in pink fluffy fridges who rule the earth have jsut as big chance to be right as those who believe in some specific christianity. The chance being: 1/number of religions on earth
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