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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted November 28, 2008 12:26 PM |
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it was proved wrong, people climbed to the peak of Olympus and proved there's nothing there. The Greek Gods were specified as corporal, so you can't really say there weren't possible to see 
And I don't contradict myself.
Joonas: Christianity has never ever been proved wrong by science. There were attempts, but they never gave the ultimate answer. It's all about how we want it to see. Don't make false arguments please.
And if you think those fridges can make the worlds' prime religion, we have nothing to discuss, since you're clearly jesting without thinking. 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted November 28, 2008 12:29 PM |
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Back to the thread.
So, your point is, Jooans, that if you do not believe in an afterlife, suicide is a non-option, no matter what, since any kind of existence is better than none.
I could counter this with the following:
believing in that their is no afterlife is a non-option because it means believing voluntarily in an ultimately "bad hand". I don't see any reason to believe in something that you cannot prove when you wouldn't like it/was bad for you. Where is the logic in that?
In other words, believing in there's no afterlife is just as foolish as believing that you will never find a true love because true love doesn't exist and is just an euphemism for a couple chemical reactions.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted November 28, 2008 12:29 PM |
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Edited by william at 12:29, 28 Nov 2008.
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@ William: I would say the bigger idiot is one who commits suicide in front of his webcam.
If you care to read some more of the article:
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Biggs's family has said he suffered from bipolar disorder and was being treated for depression
Living with Bipolar is no easy task and depression can do all sorts of things to you. I've often thought about committing suicide due to depression.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 28, 2008 12:30 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 12:30, 28 Nov 2008.
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Thus christianity has evolved from that by simply claiming we don't know where God is.... Right 
My point was, just because a lot of people believe in somthing, it doesn't add any truth to it.
I'm still a pastafari.
But this is going offtopic.
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted November 28, 2008 12:32 PM |
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Quote:
Thus christianity has evolved from that by simply claiming we don't know where God is.... Right
No, the "heaven" was always a metaphorical place, even in the old days.
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My point was, just because a lot of people believe in somthing, it doesn't add any truth to it.
Believing in something nobody has ever heard about doesn't make it any more true, you know.
We have to finish this since angelito will nuke us anyway.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 28, 2008 12:39 PM |
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Yes you could say that JJ.
But it's completely irrelevant. I've admitted thousand and one times that if someone believes in afterlife it's completely rational to do a suicide.
The whole point of that discussion is the thing that there is no existence after death.
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Doomforge
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posted November 28, 2008 12:43 PM |
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Quote:
If it can make the worlds prime religion is irrelevant. The point is that religion no matter how small or large has the same chance of being right.(or wrong)
No. If it is completely pointless by logic and completely contradicts science (and can't be combined with it with good effect), it has NO chance of being right. It's really easy, mate.
and if there is no existence after death, there is totally no reason to kill yourself. Escape is a btter option 
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 28, 2008 12:45 PM |
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How do pink flying fridges contradict science?
Not any more than walking on water does.
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Doomforge
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posted November 28, 2008 12:48 PM |
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You can either consider it Godly power or say that Sea of Galilee could have had frozen patches around (some scientists claim that). No contradiction.
The fridge, though.. it's just ridiculous.
Let's really drop the subject, mate
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 28, 2008 12:53 PM |
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Quote:
The whole point of that discussion is the thing that there is no existence after death.
Huh? Why do you say that? I'm not sure I understand you correctly either. Explain.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 28, 2008 12:55 PM |
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Yes it could be frozen and the fridges could be launched from a catapult or launched with rocket thrusters. Makes no difference.
But if you consider it godly power then why aren't the fridges reasonable?
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 28, 2008 12:59 PM |
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I started the discussion with this.
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But I don't think there's any reasonable argument for killing yourself if you don't believe in afterlife.
And I've stated this a million times already.
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I've admitted thousand and one times that if someone believes in afterlife it's completely rational to do a suicide.
So this discussion I'm having here is about the situation if one does not belive in afterlife. (That makes million and one. )
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JollyJoker
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posted November 28, 2008 01:28 PM |
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Belief is nothing 100%.
I don't believe that I'll win in the lottery, but I still play occasionally.
Now the question is, why WOULD anyone voluntarily hammer in stone for oneself as a fact (as in: believing to the point of absolute certainty), that there is no afterlife when it a) cannot be proven and b) was less than positive for oneself?
However, let's assume it.
If indeed you do not belief in the afterlife then you belief that everything will end in death. In this case the existance of this life is all there is to experience. If this experience is extremely painful you are obviously in a lose-lose situation: there won't be anything after death, but life is intolerable as well. Why would you cling to an intolerable situation, when that will only postpone the inevitable?
In that situation you'll be desperate enough anyway. You may reconsider your 100% belief and instead prefer to belief in something allowing you a small chance.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 28, 2008 01:40 PM |
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But you believe you might since you know it's possible.
I do currently think 100% that there is no afterlife. Explaining as to why is hard. Very hard. I'm not sure if I know it myself.
It can not be proven I know.
But is less positive for me? Actually quite the contrary. I know there's no life after death makes me value this one a lot more.
Quote:
If this experience is extremely painful you are obviously in a lose-lose situation: there won't be anything after death, but life is intolerable as well. Why would you cling to an intolerable situation, when that will only postpone the inevitable?
I have a different approach, it is not postponing the inevitable. Suicide would be bringing it to happen early wasting that what you still had left. If it really is your only chance wasting it is the ultimate fool's work.
But that desperation might be true.
We'll see it when I become terminally ill.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 28, 2008 01:48 PM |
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Quote:
I do currently think 100% that there is no afterlife.
I doubt that very much. If you would, you wouldn't waste your precious time with posting here; instead you'd do something more interesting or funny.
Either it's that or you haven't fully realized that life is indeed limited and will end some day.
I suppose you are still pretty young then.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 28, 2008 01:59 PM |
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Yes I am very young. Nineteen to be exact.
But I find this conversation to be exceptionally satisfying. I can't have intelligent discussion about these kind of things in my real life. I can have intelligent discussions about politics or other meaningless things but when it comes to philosophy such discussions are impossible.
And I'm reading currently so this is as good time as any to be here.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 28, 2008 02:35 PM |
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Hmm.
If you don't believe in an afterlife - or more correct, if you believe that your existence will end with death - I don't see much philosophical need.
The only philosophy I see then is to make every moment count. While you can debate about what "make it count" means in reality, a debate isn't helping you. Since you deny "other" realities, the only reality that counts is, then, this one, the material one. Consequently everything is finite, nothing is eternal, nothing makes sense except that which will reap real and material advantages for you.
It is pretty clear then, that no civilization would have been possible WITHOUT the belief in something else than the material reality of death.
Making it pretty ironic that children of that civilization deny the reality of that which made it possible in the first place.
Belief is moving mountains, they say.
And they speak true.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 28, 2008 02:46 PM |
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First of all I enjoy debate. Isn't that making moments count at it's best? To enjoy them?
The reality that counts to me isn't the material one.
The reality that counts to me is the one inside my head.
Lot of things that don't reap material advantages to me make sense and a lot of things that reap material advantages don't make sense.
I live in the material world as everyone else but the world that matters is the one inside my head.
And that in that world material advantages are rarely the ones that matter the most.
Quote:
It is pretty clear then, that no civilization would have been possible WITHOUT the belief in something else than the material reality of death.
I don't understand this would you care to explain?
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JollyJoker
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posted November 28, 2008 03:19 PM |
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Imagine the beginnings of civilization.
The harsh fight for survival. Short life spans, death everywhere. How would you leave nomadic day-to-day living behind without any belief in an afterlife? You see mother dying, father, brethren, friends, wife, child. You are intelligent enough to realize that their fate will be yours as well, inevitably.
How will a clan develop into what is known as the first high cultures without a belief that there is indeed some kind of afterlife, that there is more after you die? I don't think that is possible. In the bleak world that was 12000 or so years ago, to take the next step you need something like religion.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 28, 2008 03:32 PM |
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True every tribe developed at least some sort of religion.
But not all of those ever developed greater culture. Religion might also be the wrong word at that time. It was a way for explaining the unknown. Often called magic by histury professors. We call explaining something completely different nowadays, we call it science.
I think what mattered more was the simple reason of making better life for your kids and yourself than religion. I could almost go as far as to say religion hindered progress. If you don't think dieing is for the worse then why bother trying to change it?
But belief in afterlife helped deal with pain with losing someone dear.
Like it still does.
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