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| Thread: Schools of Magic : Summoning Magic |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted January 29, 2009 07:32 PM |
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Quote:
That was before TotE. 
ROFLOWNED.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 29, 2009 09:14 PM |
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Yes, pre-TotE Banish was a powerhouse - I think at level 23, you Hero would Banish everything that could be banished in one blow. So in typical Nival fashion, they realised something was amiss and changed it to something completely useless. How does these guys reason? You would think logic was a town in Russia for them ... or ... rather, that it wasn't ... whatever.
Anyway, hopefully, come 3.2 (ETA 2010), they will change it into something more reasonable like Damage = Level x 10 x Summoning Mastery rather than the lousy current formula.
Oh, and btw, I know that people dismiss the +4 SP bonus from the Mastery perks as being minor, and it might be compared to Light/Dark mass effects - but taken at face value, the bonus is actually quite significant. For a SP 20 Hero, that's still a +20 % efficiency of his spells, which is pretty good, and obviously, for low-SP heroes, the bonus is even more. That's not too bad for a perk - problem is probably, that the Light/Dark Master Of perks are completely imba.
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broadstrong
Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
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posted January 31, 2009 03:46 AM |
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Quote:
Maybe I should start penalizing people who make such monstrous posts that I have to read 
Long posts = strategic = substance = super!
Anyway, that post by Lexxan is pretty short by my standards .
@Lexxan,
Continue your long posts! I like them! Dun care what Elvin says.
Quote:
Overall: A skill that's mediocre at most, and not worth taking in at least 70% of the cases. It's unstable (meaning Broadstrong would simply despise it), ubt with a bit of Luck, summoning can be stronger than any magic school (but that's pretty occasional)
Yup, I despise the unstability, but I do not consider Summoning school useless, just that some niftiness is required for maximising the effect of the spells, especially when some spells are tactical-based. At least the newly-introduced spells (Arcane Crystal, Blade Barrier, Summon Hive, Arcane Armour) save this school somewhat.
I shall now compare destructive and summoning schools betwen the factions (it is general consensus that light and dark magic are the two best schools so no need to include them in the comparison)
For my haven heroes, apart from Light Magic (it's a given for haven heroes), the next best magic spells are dark, summoning and destructive. Summoning Magic does need spellpower and some knowledge, but it is minimal compared to the sort of spellpower that destructive spells need. What's more, destructive magic spells are one-time damage(apart from the accompanying effects), for knights, I would prefer summoning over destructive (tactical uses).
For sylvan, destructive magic is more for use in imbue arrow, apart from that destructive is not much better than summoning.
For academy, unless I am taking Nathir, I would usually aim for summoning.
For fortress, destructive has the upper hand, though Runic Armour seems useful too.
For inferno, frankly both schools are not good for demonlords since the spellpower is so low (until I can laugh when I face high-level demonlords). Serious! A level-19 demonlord with 3 spellpower, and the "3" is not totally from level-ups???
For dungeon, destructive is the main school but summoning is not useless. Their troops have notoriously low growth (even the ritual pit sacrifice does not help much) so any "extra" help is great.
For necropolis, quite obvious that summoning is a MUST.
For stronghold, most likely the barbarians should get Shatter Destructive as a safety net.
Quite close between these two, so summoning is not necessarily the useless achool 70 to 90% of the time. In fact for might heroes with low spellpower, destructive magic is worse (pittance damage), which makes summoning magic's tactical basis more superior.
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The queer part of the Carcity/Broadstrong/Zamfir[
/b] threeway, equipped with sailing, summon allies, spatial travel and supermover.
Many current projects on hand.
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tann_141
Known Hero
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posted January 31, 2009 05:53 PM |
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destructive may still have the upper hand for a knight... not so much because of the direct damage from the spells.. but.. master of fire ability is great for defense reduction... master of fire can lead to fiery wrath.. then master of ice can lead to cold steel in attack tree... so it is possible to get master of fire, fiery wrath, master of ice, cold steel, battle frenzy, and retribution... if 5 morale.. thats an extra 45% damage to most units.... combine that with luck.. and defense reduction from master of fire and you are looking at some great overkill 
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2009 07:34 PM |
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My review...
Summoning Magic
Summoning Magic is practised mostly by Wizards and Wood Elves but is now also common among Necromancers and even to a less degree, Dark Elves.
Summoning Magic is an old art and one could say that its like a big combination between all the traditional spell schools.
A Summoner can not only summon allies and conjure magical beasts but also do several other diffrent interesting spells.
These are the factions and how they fit Summoning.
Haven: Although Haven traditionally use Light and Dark Magic, Summoning is viable too. Since Haven is might oriented, they benefit a lot from cloning their creatures. 6/10.
Inferno: It is rare for Inferno to use Summoning. You would rather go for Dark and/or Destructive. Cases exist though, and like Haven its nice for Inferno to copy their powerful units. 5/10.
Necropolis: Summoning is a must have for the Necromancers since they use Raise Dead a lot. Not much to say here, but you should really have Summoning with Necropolis. Arcane Armor on your weak units (defensive wise) can help a lot. 10/10
Fortress: Summoning is horrible for Fortress. You will probably have Light or Destructive anyway. Fortress is not so defensive and summoning is just a waste. 1/10
Sylvan: Summoning is actualy very viable for Sylvan, due to several reasons. Diraels special boosts Wasp Swarm and because of Sylvans generally high iniative, speed and luck - the Conjure Phoenix spell is excellent for them. Have Light Magic too and your Conjure Phoenix will become really good. Many players prefer to have Destructive instead. It depends on your playstyle. Defintly a good choice 9/10. I almost forgot to say that you can clone your shooters and protect them behind treants - very good.
Dungeon: Dungeon mostly focus on Destructive and sometimes Dark and even Light in some cases. Summoning is not that great for Dungeon but its okey and viable. Conjure Phoenix is very good with the Warlocks high spellpower though. 7/10.
Academy: Summoning is viable for Academy too and really fits the faction. Although most people choose the other schools, you are pefectly fine with Summoning here too. The Wizards to have good spellpower and lots of nice units (Titans, Mages, Rakshasa) to clone. 7/10.
I cant say that im an expert in H5 and I have not played it for long but according to me, Summoning is least viable for Fortress because of their defensive style and best for Necromancers.
Most factions can benefit for Summoning and it depends on your playstyle. Most consider Summoning slightly weaker then the other schools, but the difference between Summoning and for example Light Magic is defintly not big.
Now lets look at the spells:
Fist of Wrath: The spell is horrible. It really is. Dont use it. Use your heroes attack instead. 0/10 imo.
Fire Traps: One of the best lv1 spells actualy. Its really nice in creeping and does nice damage early on. Only bad thing about it is that its pretty random, sometimes creatures dont get hit at all. It gets worse uses later though. 7/10.
Arcane Crystal: A nice utility spell. Can be used to both only block shooters or use it in combination with some kind of area of effect attack for additional damage. 6/10
Wasp Swarm: Bad spell, but gets a bit more viable with Dirael. Still, some reduction in iniative can be nice sometimes. Good against already low-iniative creatures. 3/10
Raise Dead: Like a mini-ressurection, this is very, veru good for Necropolis. For other factions its not as nice but still an ok spell. Remember that you dont get to "keep" raised troops. 8/10
Blade Barrier: This is a really nice spell if you have many shooters or there is some powerful high speed guy comming. In addition, early on you dont have large creature tank.
This can save your life several times. 7/10
Earthquake: Only nice during sieges, but on sieges its really nice. 8/10
Phantom Forces: One of the best spells in Summoning, also its iconic spell. Phantom Forces is really nice for might oriented factions. Kill your enemies shooters and cast this on your own shooters and then protect them by Blade Barrier or some tank creature. 9/10
Summon Hive: I think the spell is kinda bad but it adds up some nice damage over time. 5/10.
Summon Elementals: This is mostly good in early game. It sucks when you get Earth Elementals (which is often).
The Water Elemetals do excellent damage, Fire Elementals are average and the Air Elementals iniative makes them superb.
High mana cost but rather nice when you get good elementals. 7/10.
Arcane Armour: This is very nice for Necropolis, since they dont have much defense. It makes Vampires one of the best creatures in my opinion. Arcane Armour is also very nice on your Uberhoenix.
8/10
Conjure Phoenix: The Phoenix has very good stats and does excellent damage. You should have it assist you in most battles. Very good. 10/10
Conclusion
I would say that Summoning is based around utility on the battlefield. It has some really nice spells, many moderate but also lots of useless ones (most times). Summoning is nice for both might and magic heroes.
Utility is always fun, and Summoning is a very fun spell school. It might not be one of the best spell schools (depending on you're faction) but its very fun and offers great utlity. I say take it if you like the style of summoning - the difference between other spell schools is not that big.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 31, 2009 08:07 PM |
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You don't offer much when it comes to justification. There are no arguments to support your hypotheses.
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Vexon
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 31, 2009 08:17 PM |
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I would say Summoning Magic is the magic school for Might heroes that could use a bit of magical back-up, as it incorporates elements from the other schools, and with the creature-summoning spells adds some extra tangible assets on the battlefield. I rarely take up on it with Magic heroes.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted January 31, 2009 08:18 PM |
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You haven't seen a deadly Warlock Phoenix, hmm? 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 31, 2009 08:20 PM |
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Not exactly, few of those spells could have good impact with a might faction due to lack of spellpower. You could argue that the summoned units also gain might bonuses but that is usually hardly sufficient. Except in the ranger's case that can manage supreme spellpower AND have might skills.
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Vexon
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 31, 2009 10:17 PM |
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I agree that my approach is less than preferable but I find it works if your Mage Guild acts supportive of your Might heroes and presents them with the right Summoning spells. Phantom Forces especially, is an immediate trigger for me to give at least one Mighter Summoning Magic. I'm not saying every Might hero I create is getting levels in that skill, I'm just saying it's the most likely option.
Of course I rarely play any other faction than Sylvan, which could also weigh in on why I choose to give my Mighters Summoning Magic.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 31, 2009 10:40 PM |
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Yes sylvan is a fine candidate for that A high druid boosted phoenix is nigh unstoppable, phantom on arcanes is painful and the amount of fire elementals summoned through fire warriors is impressive. Even the crystal works wonders with 40+ spellpower.
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Dargor
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 04, 2009 10:13 AM |
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The Crystal with 40 Spell Power does about 1k dmg i think,
And as for the Summoning school i think its quite nice, But The perks connected to this school suck hard, It would be nice to get Mass Wasp ors sth like that, but instead of this i can have a +4 spell power for Fist of Warth...;/ Elemental Balance looks quite nice, or Fire Warriors but if you play necro for ex. You wont be able to Have Howl of Terror (If You actually will be headding for this )
But as for the spells them selfs, Phantom Image Owns Especially on "No enemy retaialtion"
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted February 04, 2009 10:16 AM |
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Summoing has one big problem: It NEEDS HIGH Spellpower and EXPERT Mastery to become effective. On it's own it's kinda... well... weakish...
Crystal, Trap and Phoenix are the best spells for their level tho.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted February 04, 2009 03:18 PM |
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Quote:
Summoing has one big problem: It NEEDS HIGH Spellpower and EXPERT Mastery to become effective. On it's own it's kinda... well... weakish...
Not really, there are spells that don't benefit from spellpower at all. But mastery, I have to agree there. Summoning is probably the school which needs the masteries the most.
Spells like Wasp Swarm, Phantom Forces and Blade Barrier don't depend much on spellpower. However, Wasp Swarm & Firetrap, for example, are pathetic without a high mastery level.
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scythesong
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 04, 2009 09:17 PM |
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Hello. I'm new here but I've played Heroes 5 for a while and Summoning Magic just happens to be my favorite school of magic.
It's true that Summoning Magic is a lot weaker than other schools, simply because the other schools operate in a more in-your-face kinda way. Destructive Magic and Dark Magic work best in softening up or killing something, and I use them alot for just that. Summoning Magic has its own moments however, when used under special conditions or when comboed with other skills. Otherwise, it makes for decent backup.
My favorite is when it's handled by Sylvans because of Imbue Arrow. Wasp Swarm's unique ability to delay a unit's turn makes it very useful for keeping a particularly dangerous creature stack in check, and it stacks with Expert Avenger, Expert Summoning Magic, and Dirael's Special. It works differently from Slow, and with enough Initiative you can prevent a stack from ever taking a turn with it.
Add High Druids (tribes of east, for spell power), Deadeye Arrow and Rain of Arrows into the mix and you have a solid, powerful combo. There are other combos, and they work because most Summoning Magic spells have a certain property in them that makes them unique, like Fist of Wrath being non-magical, physical damage.
Funny thing about this school is it works best for Undead creatures but its best handled by Sylvan heroes. It's also hard to get at times, in the way Rangers very rarely seem to get Destructive Magic. I guess some schools are restricted to some heroes?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 04, 2009 09:31 PM |
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Destructive is a pretty common skill for sylvan. Anyway each race has specific chance for each magic skill to pop up, those with the highest for summoning are wizards, necros and warlocks. And I disagree about summoning best used by sylvan, that requires high druids to work well. Also the right neutrals so that you can effectively use it with rain of arrows.
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Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
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posted February 05, 2009 09:14 AM |
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As I'm redoing Hate Breeds Hate (which I reported earlier having difficulty to finish), I learn to appreciate more about Summoning Magic. The perks, well... you've all said it, so I guess don't bother. Max the skill asap and it would work wonder. Warlocks with high SP and Expert Summoning creep really fast. Earlier I played the scenario with Dark + Destructive, now with Summoning + Destructive, it seems more promising. The Trap is more effective than stalker + destructive spells combo when dealing with strong walker such as wraiths.
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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted February 05, 2009 09:56 AM |
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Indeed Exactly my point, Duncan.
With High Spellpower and Max Skill (And maybe with the three Master of X Perks) Summoning can be more dangerous that any other school. But, like I already said, it's pretty occasional. You can easily creep with Crystal and Trap, and even with Swarm, but you simply cannot with Fist (lol), Raise Dead (except for Undead) or Earthquake.(Du'h)
Powerfull Summoning is simply excellent at creeping. I once was able to clear a whole map with Narxes (who isn't a strong hero at all) with Expert Sorcery, MotW and Expert Swarm. (The enemy never acted)
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted February 07, 2009 05:55 PM |
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What determines the starting initiative of Phantom stacks? Hero level, spellpower, school mastery? I can't find that info.
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none of my business.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted February 07, 2009 06:02 PM |
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From the Fan Manual:Quote:
When summoned by the Phantom Forces spell, clones get an ATB value depending on the caster Level (not Spell Power): ATB=0.4+0.02*Level.
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