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JollyJoker
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posted February 06, 2011 04:47 PM |
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And here we totally agree.
Whether it's the Fire Brigade, the Prostitutes, Gays or Dog Owners, if they make a (public) parade, they have to follow whatever code of "decency" the town or whoever approved of has layed down, whether that's concerning clothing, behaviour, consumption of drugs, etc.
If they don't, I suppose the organizer is fined with no hope, ever again to be allowed a parade.
Still, no reason to beat them up, though.
Besides, those pics at least aren't pornographic.
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baklava
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posted February 06, 2011 04:58 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 16:59, 06 Feb 2011.
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Of course there's no reason to beat them up, there's never any justification for that.
And of course those pictures aren't pornographic, this discussion ain't worth a -QP 
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Doomforge
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posted February 06, 2011 08:08 PM |
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Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, Doomforge, bjut this is a clear judgement."You just don't do this and that." "WE already know this and that." "It would be better..." "It's not this or that."
It's my private opinion on what would be best. Definitively not - as you called it - decision, since I lack power to make any decisions, being a simple citizen of a distant contry, obviously ;D
Hope you're not trying to tell here that we shouldn't have opinions because it's not our goddamn business. If so, I disagree - imho it's good to have an opinion, even if the problem doesn't concern us. What's wrong is trying to force our opinion as best to the people directly involved, but that's obviously not what I'm doing here.
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And I asked what qualifies you not only for the judgement, but to judge whether it even matters whether it's wrong or right: it may not be a decision of reason of heart.
After all, you are neither gay nor living in Serbia.
I'm not American yet I'm posting about American problems
I'm not in the army yet I'm discussing war
I'm not gay yet I'm expressing my feelings towards gay parades
et cetera et cetera
because..
I'm human. Everything that's human is a concern of mine, whether it's war, sexuality or politics. Just because the geographical position doesn't match doesn't mean I should just shut up.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 06, 2011 08:22 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, Doomforge, bjut this is a clear judgement."You just don't do this and that." "WE already know this and that." "It would be better..." "It's not this or that."
It's my private opinion on what would be best.
For whom?
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Doomforge
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posted February 06, 2011 08:49 PM |
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Homosexuals.
I know what reactions some older or strictly conservative Poles had seeing the gay parade here. Showing them people from Baklava's pictures will only make them stronger homophobes, is that what gay people want? I guess not.
It's not that I am offended by seeing such people, or anything. But try to think globally... not just about you and me. There is a lot of people who don't know homosexuals. Them learning at parades is counter-productive.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 06, 2011 08:57 PM |
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Sorry, doom.
Your opinion is an example for what the world is sufferng from.
Men who know what's best for women.
Whites who know what's best for colored.
Rich who know what's best for the poor.
Straights who know what's best for gays.
Why would they even do what's best for them? We are not talking about considering an insuranc against fire.
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Doomforge
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posted February 07, 2011 11:36 AM |
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Sure. Gays suffer because I (among others) think a parade should be postponed.
It's a massive exaggeration, JJ.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 07, 2011 12:09 PM |
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I didn't say, GAYS suffer from it. I said, the world suffers from it, "it" being people who, for fundamental reasons like being straight or male, have no idea how it is to be, how the people are for whom they know what is best, like gay or female.
Sure, there is nothing wrong with an opinion like, a parade in Serbia won't give gays a better reputation in Serbia, especially not when they are clad and act like porn actors, and might even work the other way round, but that assumes a couple of things like, for example, getting a better reputation would be possible at all and being the aim and goal of the gays there.
In any event I don't think that the gays are waiting for the advice of the straights of how to behave to be less hated or detested.
Same thing with, for example women, who wouldn't need the advice of men neither, how to behave to be more respected.
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Mytical
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posted February 07, 2011 01:13 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 13:17, 07 Feb 2011.
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I almost agree with you JJ..but not quite. While yes we should live and let live..there also has to be a line of public decency. Agreed by ALL, not just 'whatever floats your boat'. However, it should also cover all, not just a few.
IE public sex, regardless of what kind..should be wrong. What you (and whoever else is willing) does in the privacy of your own home should be nobody's business.
Now I am not against any type of equal rights parade or demonstration, at all, but I do wonder something.
I wonder if the Dragon Con Parade would have raised such a fuss. I mean there were both males and females that were dressed in MUCH worse then the pictures here (ie more revealing) and that was not including what could be seen After Dark. Or is it just the sight of men in outrageous outfits? .
Its a parade that celebrates geekery in all its splendor. People who are proud to be 'not normal' and showing off just how geeky they can be. So would it raise such a fuss. Now before you say "People are not as opposed to that as the gay parade..", I can assure you, you are wrong. There are protests every year. That is correct, every year. Mostly from the religious people who think it is 'Evil' and 'Of the devil'.
So to make a terribly long story short..there is nothing wrong with a 'Gay Parade' and it is the jerks that need a swift kick..not those in the Parade. However, I do agree that while it should be fun, some decorum would not be a bad thing.
As for after dark..I have three words to describe one of the costumes. Three small feathers. 
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JollyJoker
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posted February 07, 2011 01:18 PM |
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I can only quote myself, Mytical, first post, this page:
Quote:
Whether it's the Fire Brigade, the Prostitutes, Gays or Dog Owners, if they make a (public) parade, they have to follow whatever code of "decency" the town or whoever approved of has layed down, whether that's concerning clothing, behaviour, consumption of drugs, etc.
If they don't, I suppose the organizer is fined with no hope, ever again to be allowed a parade.
EDIT: However:
I'll illustrate a point with something entertaining. Just watch it - I hope the point will become clear soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BTmSZcMPng
For the record: I like like all this very much.
Now imagine two MALE dancers there doing the same.
Even though I know women who are as turned on by the idea of seeing two males in action than there are men who are turned on by the idea of seeing two females.
Shows who rules the world.
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Mytical
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posted February 07, 2011 01:26 PM |
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Yes, but you also said
Quote:
Sorry, doom.
Your opinion is an example for what the world is sufferng from.
Men who know what's best for women.
Whites who know what's best for colored.
Rich who know what's best for the poor.
Straights who know what's best for gays.
Why would they even do what's best for them? We are not talking about considering an insuranc against fire.
Which is mainly what I am objecting to. While its true that for the most part people should live and let live, everybody has rules they have to follow that are made by others. Being female, colored, poor, gay, etc doesn't suddenly negate that.
We have rules for how parents treat their kids, and people who do not have kids helped decide them..so they shouldn't have to abide by them?
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JollyJoker
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posted February 07, 2011 01:40 PM |
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I edited my post above, you may find it entertaining. 
Anyway, for this, we've not been talking about "decent behaviour".
You might say, it's the darn LAW who says everyone how to behave IN PUBLIC; but it's not straights who should tell gays what's BEST for them, like men shouldn't say women what's best for them, which was the thing here.
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Doomforge
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posted February 07, 2011 02:46 PM |
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Quote:
In any event I don't think that the gays are waiting for the advice of the straights of how to behave to be less hated or detested.
Yup, that's your opinion all right, but don't confuse it with a fact.
We shouldn't say all gays want this or that, or that all gays want the parades to be JUST fun.
Generalizations suck.
For those gays that intend to show the world that they are cool people (and believe me, those exist - ask a friend that's gay if you have one) via parades, whether you like it or not, it might not be the best option, as not just "I" think, but public surveys show.
Is that that hard to accept for you that there ARE gay guys who want to "familiarize" the world with them via the parades AND that the form of the parades makes it actually counter-effective, JJ?
If my word, as a heterosexual, isn't "good enough" for you, I'll ask my friend to speak, perhaps you will assume him more entitled to say what I'm saying right here, since he's gay 
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JollyJoker
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posted February 07, 2011 03:26 PM |
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Is that that hard to accept for you that there ARE gay guys who want to "familiarize" the world with them via the parades AND that the form of the parades makes it actually counter-effective, JJ?
Oh, I'm dead certain, there are. So what? Are you their spokesperson? Obviously the gay scene is not uniform or homogenous - why should it be?
Which is all the more reason to leave it to THEM to discuss and handle it, because that shows even more that they don't need stratights to tell them how to behave and live as gays and what is best for them.
Still, you insist that you know what is best for them.
Didn't you say generalization sucks?
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Doomforge
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posted February 07, 2011 05:37 PM |
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Oh, I'm dead certain, there are. So what? Are you their spokesperson?
And are you the spokesperson of those who think opposite?
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Which is all the more reason to leave it to THEM to discuss and handle it, because that shows even more that they don't need stratights to tell them how to behave and live as gays and what is best for them.
And yet, we both participate at various discussions regarding, say, America, yet we aren't Americans and should - according to your logic - keep our mouths shut.
I smell some inconsistency here.
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Still, you insist that you know what is best for them.
Didn't you say generalization sucks?
I have an opinion, like every person on this planet. Why shouldn't I? I can't change things anyway, and since when expressing it over random internet forum is soooo destructive and harmful?
If I were some sort of law-maker, trying to construct something punishing minorities or taking away rights from them, you would have all the moral reasons to bash me. But right now?
So I think parades are bad for a group i don't belong to. Yeah, I do. Boo-****ing-hoo.
I don't see a problem here, really. I'm just not washing my hands when it comes to opinion. Well, I'm pretty sure your "let them do whatever they want" is also an opinion, isn't it? What else might it be
Also, pointing out the obvious consequence (negative groups becoming even more negative because of bad impressions from parade) doesn't require me to be gay to acknowledge that.
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alcibiades
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posted February 07, 2011 07:38 PM |
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Quote:
It's not that I am offended by seeing such people, or anything. But try to think globally... not just about you and me. There is a lot of people who don't know homosexuals. Them learning at parades is counter-productive.
Sorry, but ... counter-productive? Just exactly that?
Now I've said it before, I don't really care that much about gay parades myself, but then I've never really been desciminated against, and I appreciate the value the parade must have for people who have been. I don't think you do, from what you write.
But more importantly, I do think your attitude to this thing is very unhealthy for the general progression towards acceptance and open-mindedness. Whenever you want to remove such things "because some people might be offended" or "because it could be damaging for some people", what I really see is your projection of your own doubts or ambivalence.
I'm not saying you're homophobic as such, but if you don't have a problem with the parades, then let those who do have a problem speak up their minds. Then a real discussion can be taken between the pro-people and the against-people, instead of stepping around the issue because it 'might' offend someone.
And frankly, I don't believe that exposing can harm anybody. Sure, I'm not talking about people wandering around naked or semi-naked in the streets (or even worse), which I *do* realise happens some places. But I think that the more frequently people are reminded of such things, the more used to it they will get, and the less descrimination there will be.
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
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posted February 07, 2011 08:08 PM |
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Nah, you got me wrong Alci. Much like JJ is getting me wrong.
What I'm trying to say here is that if the goal of the parade is to bring people closer (homo- and heterosexual), it fails. Why? There were surveys after Warsaw parade, also I heard lots of private opinions. People that are normally not gay-friendly, after seeing the parade, became even more because what they saw (the drag Queens, for instance) has sort of fit their image of a "morally corrupt" homosexual. And they just got even more sure about their anti gay feelings.
In other words, the parade - for the sake of people understanding each other - brought more harm then good. It's not my "opinion" or any of this garbage - it's a simple fact.
I don't mind parades, myself. last year one was quite fun, actually. Yeah, I've been there. 
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Corribus
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posted February 07, 2011 08:35 PM |
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@DF
Quote:
What I'm trying to say here is that if the goal of the parade is to bring people closer (homo- and heterosexual), it fails.
True. But I don't think that this is the goal.
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alcibiades
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posted February 07, 2011 09:08 PM |
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Quote:
What I'm trying to say here is that if the goal of the parade is to bring people closer (homo- and heterosexual), it fails. Why? There were surveys after Warsaw parade, also I heard lots of private opinions. People that are normally not gay-friendly, after seeing the parade, became even more because what they saw (the drag Queens, for instance) has sort of fit their image of a "morally corrupt" homosexual. And they just got even more sure about their anti gay feelings.
Well that's exactly my point. If people can't accept gays for what they want to be, then at least let them be square about it. I think a lot of gays don't want to be accepted "as long as they don't behave in this or that way". I think the gays, just as anybody else, want to be accepted and be allowed to behave in whatever way they want.
So yes, perhaps in the short view, it doesn't help acceptance, but I don't really think the people who make the parade care. And I think if you want *real* acceptance, then that means accepting them with all the weird and outrageous behaviours.
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Azagal
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posted February 07, 2011 09:21 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 21:26, 07 Feb 2011.
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But the weird and outrageous stuff isn't gayspecific, so why would you press the issue? I mean they don't dress like that because they're gay they simply want to be up in peoples faces and dressing like that is one way. It's not like revealing clothes and big feathery scarfs and all the other stuff are something you suddenly find attractive once you're gay. I'm with most people here that I really don't think that the homosexuals are helping themselves a lot when they parade arround in those outfits. Not that I mind the outfits I just think it's like coming to a PETA demonstration in a furcoat. Not the same but you get the idea...
Isn't it perfectly possible to accept gay people and still find parading like that a bit silly? Finding them silly does in no way hamper with the acceptance of the persons lifestyle. So I don't really understand what you mean with "accepting them with all their crazyness" Alci, since I honestly don't see anything gay-specific about that behaviour.
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