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alcibiades
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posted February 14, 2011 11:22 AM |
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Well, if you are born that way, it must be genetics.
No, I think some people have had some theories about hormonal interchange between mother and child while child is still in the womb being the cause.
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There are people that beat the crap out of gays on the parades - don't parade.
There are no gay marriages - live together without marriage.
Think "how" not "why".
Sorry, but that's just completely misunderstood from my perspective. So if people say we gays have other legal rights, we just live with it and rejoice? I don't think so ...
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VokialBG
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posted February 14, 2011 11:24 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 11:25, 14 Feb 2011.
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And how about discussing who is gay in HoMM... except Findan, we all know about him 
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Doomforge
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posted February 14, 2011 11:24 AM |
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@Vokial
Well, various people want to prove how "horrible" the gays are based on various assumptions. Giving them solid facts would shut them up, I guess. You can no longer speculate adopting kids by homosexuals will turn them gay if it's, for example, proven it's genetic.
@Alci
By "born" I mean "conceived" - the mother theory is, well, environmental, isn't it? 
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Salamandre
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posted February 14, 2011 11:29 AM |
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And what the church suggests for gays to repent? If you can't have an erection near a woman, how are you supposed to have a sexual life without, or even a family? It is a technical problem. A lesbian could still "take" it and "repent", but without his tool in vertical position, a male can't do anything.
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Doomforge
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posted February 14, 2011 11:35 AM |
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Guess they distribute free pills. Oh wait, viagra doesn't work if there is no arousal.
Well, I guess they advocate celibacy then  and a friendship-only relationship. Not very healthy if you ask me.
Unless they want gay guys to take a shot of drugs that forces erection every time they want to pretend they have any interest in a woman
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VokialBG
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posted February 14, 2011 11:35 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 11:36, 14 Feb 2011.
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Quote:
And what the church suggests for gays to repent? If you can't have an erection near a woman, how are you supposed to have a sexual life without, or even a family? It is a technical problem. A lesbian could still "take" it and "repent", but without his tool in vertical position, a male can't do anything.
Actually gays must be killed according to the Bible I think.
After Bulgaria became a Christian state there was a law according to it gay must be killed with sword. There was no rule before it about that (Pagan Bulgaria).
So... dead man can't have a family for objective reason... you got the point.
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Doomforge
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posted February 14, 2011 11:40 AM |
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Actually gays must be killed according to the Bible I think.
Not really 
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VokialBG
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posted February 14, 2011 11:42 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 11:45, 14 Feb 2011.
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Oh, I think I can trust you, you are Pole, you guys all know the Bible?
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Doomforge
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posted February 14, 2011 11:43 AM |
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Definitively not - most of Poles never read a single page of the Bible
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2011 11:58 AM |
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Alci's posts are pretty dead centre here, at least as far as I'm concerned.
No reason to add anything.
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Elodin
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posted February 14, 2011 02:47 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 14:51, 14 Feb 2011.
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This seems to be a misunderstanding. What I mean is, that gays do not pick for themselves, when they are born, that they will become gay - it's not a deliberate decision.
Your presumptions are false. There are in fact people who were once gay who are no longer gay. Therefore they were not "born that way."
NPR radio
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Anyway, Elodin, you call everyone interpreting the Bible different than you a liar. You call everyone who followed their beliefs when they are not consistent with your interpretation liars as well.
No, but you are making a false statement about me.
I said anyone who claims to be a Christian who is not in fact trying to walk the path of a Christian as set forth by the New Covenant Scriptures is in fact a liar.
When Jesus clearly said marriage is a male and a female and a person who claims to be a Christian calls Jesus a liar and says it is between a man and a man or a woman and a woman it is obvious the person claiming to a follower of Christ is in fact a liar.
Any church that claims to follow the teachings of Christ while marrying members of the same sex is lying.
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Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Male means male. Female means female. Man and wife. There is no "alternate" interpretation of the passage.
Anyone who rejects the teachings of Jesus is not a follower of Jesus. Not a Christian.
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And the spirit would say, that it depends on whether people love each other more than everything else whether a marriage is blessed by god or not. Considering, how many marriages are seemingly unhappy and are divorced, it's clear that those do NOT have God's blessing in the first place, otherwise they wouldn't be so unhappy.
Sorry, but marriage according to Jesus Christ is between a male and a female. And,ye, married people can be unhappy. People in an unhappy marriage are unhappy primarily because of sin on the part of one or both of the people. That does not mean that their marriage is not a legitimate marriage.
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In any case, that is of no matter. IF a church decides, yes, we WILL marry two men or two women - which seems to be the case here - I'm sure they can make a good case of why they would do it, and YOU are certainly not in the position to say they do the work of the devil.
Yes, I am in the position to say that a church claiming to be a Christian church that marries members of the same sex is opposing the will of God because the New Testament is quite clear that marriage is between a man and a woman and that gay sex is sinful.
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Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
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1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
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Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
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Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
You see, JJ, Christianity is not about "doing your own thing." You are either a follower of Christ or you are not. If you claim to be a follower of Christ but don't actually try to follow his teachings you are in fact a liar according to the Bible and your "end is destruction [hell.]"
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There are ramifications, though. If a church decides to marry gays, that church automatically declares gaiety as no longer sinful, at least, anyway, if the aim is basically the same as with a straight couple.
The church does not have the authority to overturn what God has said. Any church that says, "No, God is a liar, gay sex is not sinful and marriage is not just between a man and woman" clearly is not a Christian church.
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Salamandre
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posted February 14, 2011 02:54 PM |
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Bullsnow. The Bible also supports slavery, teach you how hard to beat them and have sex with slave females. And I doubt that ANY christian modern church will still support that. Things have to evolve, people needs to think by themselves and stop hide behind some ancient text which clearly had no idea how the world will change.
Absurd things:
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
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Doomforge
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posted February 14, 2011 02:59 PM |
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Your presumptions are false. There are in fact people who were once gay who are no longer gay. Therefore they were not "born that way."
NPR radio
And the proof?
Who is this guy?
Is there a shred of proof what he claims is actually true?
I may claim I'm from the Moon. And?
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Anyone who rejects the teachings of Jesus is not a follower of Jesus. Not a Christian.
You should exclude yourself then from Christians.
You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
—Matthew 5:38-42, NIV
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
—Luke 6:27-31. NIV
You are a person who bought a shotgun and is ready to pump anyone who so much enters your home without permission full of lead.
You're ignoring Jesus' words.
You're therefore - according to your definition - not a Christian.
Dismissed.
Seeing that it does invalidate every other of your points, I don't need to address them.
And don't even start on different interpretations, this will just make you a hypocrite that doesn't want to listen about different interpretations about anything other than what personally suits you to twist.
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Salamandre
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posted February 14, 2011 03:01 PM |
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Don't bother, he will quote other passages which will say exactly the opposite. This is the Bible strength.
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Doomforge
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posted February 14, 2011 03:03 PM |
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The beauty of this quote is that it can't be "went around". Jesus directly confronts the "other passages" from the Bible and claims them misunderstood by humans.
THIS is MEANT to be taken literal.
DO_NO_HARM.
Killing them with a shotgun for trying to rob you is EXACTLY against Jesus' words.
So, sorry, Elodin. You lost. Bye.
Can we move on to LGBT issues again?
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2011 03:30 PM |
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I also think that Elodin's last post concludes the issue without any need to discuss it further.
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OmegaDestroyer
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posted February 14, 2011 04:09 PM |
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Does God, the creator of the universe and trillions of worlds, have so little on his plate that he is really concerned with what 2 consenting adults do with their time?
Seems to me he'd have more important matters on his mind.
Also, I'm sorry Elodin, but religious doctrine is not a solid evidentiary foundation in a secular society.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2011 04:41 PM |
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Well, I actually did have a look at the NPR radio link Elodin gave, and actually it's quite interesting. I'll quote a passage here:
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Mr. CHAMBERS: My struggle with homosexuality is over for me today. That doesn't mean that I can't experience the temptation or a fleeting thought, but that's being a human being. And I'm not defined or is there any power in relationship to homosexuality over my life today.
BRAND: Michael Bussee, the founder of Exodus, he says he couldn't deny his homosexuality. He fell in love with another man and another ex-gay counselor. He now speaks out against ex-gay therapies. Do you agree with him?
Mr. CHAMBERS: Michael Bussee is a friend of mine, and he was one of 62 men and women who pioneered this great organization that I lead today. And because of that, I honor him. I am grateful to him. And as someone who is an adult, a mature adult, he can make those decisions and they may be different, but we can agree to disagree on those issues.
BRAND: Well, the fact that he's in a homosexual relationship, does that in your eyes make him a sinner?
Mr. CHAMBERS: The issue of homosexuality is very clear from a biblical standpoint. Just like so many other sins that are listed in the Bible, homosexuality is called a sin. But the truth is we are all sinners.
BRAND: Can you be a true Christian and be a practicing homosexual?
Mr. CHAMBERS: I believe that there are a lot of Christians out there who are involved in homosexuality, yes.
BRAND: Why not, you know, live and let live? And why is it important for Exodus to offer this alternative, as you call it, to people who are pretty happy being homosexual?
Mr. CHAMBERS: Well, this alternative isn't there for people who are happy. This alternative is there for people who are in conflict and who choose to decide something different than what the world says is best for their life.
Especially interesting passages underlined for ease of reading.
This should speak for itself. Obviously, this is an organisation that aims to help people who are - for whatever reason - deeply UNHAPPY with being gay and wo are reluctant or even loathe to take the contemporary advice to just accept it and live with it.
Whether this is indeed a "cure" for those willing to "change" or whether it's just an act of extreme willpower and disciplining that will work for as long the strength lasts is another question.
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alcibiades
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posted February 14, 2011 04:45 PM |
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Quote:
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Your presumptions are false. There are in fact people who were once gay who are no longer gay. Therefore they were not "born that way."
NPR radio
And the proof?
Who is this guy?
Is there a shred of proof what he claims is actually true?
I may claim I'm from the Moon. And?
Yes, from a scientific point of view, the fact that one man claims he is no longer gay doesn't say anything, particularly not since the man obviously has a motivation for not being gay. Thus, he might even tell the truth for all that's worth, that he's no longer attracted to men - the mind is a powerful tool, and people have achieved things less commonplace that converting from homosexuality due to their faith.
And just because one man has "converted" to girls, your logic that he wasn't born gay is not valid. Even if it was in general possible to convert from homosexuality, that does not proof that you weren't born like that. But like I said, what one man (who is clearly biased) says doesn't proof anything, which brings us back to square one, because we're again down to what you choose to believe.
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Elodin
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posted February 14, 2011 05:05 PM |
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I see quite a bit of hate has been brought into play by the "tolleralnt" ones.
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Bullsnow. The Bible also supports slavery, teach you how hard to beat them and have sex with slave females. And I doubt that ANY christian modern church will still support that. Things have to evolve, people needs to think by themselves and stop hide behind some ancient text which clearly had no idea how the world will change.
Someone has lied to you. God did allow Israel to have slaves although they had to be treated better than they were in the pagan nations. But that does not mean that God wanted slavery to exist. He allowed slavery because of the hardness of the hearts of men which is the same reason Jesus said divorce had been allowed.
Oh, and sex with slaves was not allowed. Any sex outside marriage is called fornication if neither party is married and adultry if one party is married.
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And the proof?
Who is this guy?
Is there a shred of proof what he claims is actually true?
I may claim I'm from the Moon. And?
You mean is there proof the man used to be gay? His word is not good enough? Here is a link to an organization of people who used to be gay and who are no longer gay.
http://exodusinternational.org/
The bible speaks of people who used to be gay but who were delivered by the Spirit of Christ.
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1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
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You should exclude yourself then from Christians.
Nah, I follow Christ.
The interpretation of Matthew 5:38-42 is that an individual has no authority to punish lawbreakers or to take revenge when wronged. It does not forbid self-defense or defense of one's family. In fact the Bible commands the husband to be the "savior" of the household, willing to lay down his life for his family.
The verses you quoted were taken from the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus is correcting the teahings of the Pharrasees (you will note the numerous "you have heard it said" passages there.) They taught that individuals could carry out the civil penalties for breaking the law. However, the Old Testament says a trial is required.
Romans 13:4 teahces the same thing. It is the business of the government to punish lawbreakers, not the authority of the individual to do so.
Here Jesus instructed his disciples to buy a sword when going into hostile territory so your interpretation is obviously incorrect.
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Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
The fact remains that Jesus said marriage is between a male and a female.
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Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
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And don't even start on different interpretations, this will just make you a hypocrite that doesn't want to listen about different interpretations about anything other than what personally suits you to twist.
No, it is false to say I am a hypocrit. I read and study the Bible and do my best to follow it. There are some who want to twist it and lie about it for their own reasons.
The fact remains that a church that marries anyone other than a male and a female is willfully rebelling against the clear teachings of Christ. No amount of read herrings will change that.
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