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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: The Dragon Slaughter
Thread: The Dragon Slaughter This thread is 51 pages long: 1 10 ... 14 15 16 17 18 ... 20 30 40 50 51 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 28, 2011 03:58 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 04:05, 28 Jul 2011.

Thank you very much for the save.

Now that playing with Azrael/Hidden race I realize that the cloak of undead king is not available or possible to assemble until the Game. Without the cloak, there is no way to get nightmares outside town. And the upgrade feature (500 nightmares for bonus) will never be used, assuming that we can't get to the Game without investing already in another unit.

A good move would be to add a quest available only to Azrael/hidden race, for two additional amulet of the undertaker. If not, playing with him is in nothing different from regular Azrael except werewolfs (which have already skeletons stats, so it is only visual).

For a correct progression I would place those two artefacts in the emeral towers events (14k enchanters), so He has already to fight a lot before getting them.
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 28, 2011 04:05 PM

The remaining issues which I can think of so far are:

1) The Orb of the Firmament isn't always given.

2) The Enchanter's wife should have 100% block.

3) HE153 should be HE152 in Orrin's story.

4) The Dragon King doesn't always get moved to the underground Dungeon (and there might be a poorly-translated message of the form "Attack %Z__ around %Z__).

5) Azreal's Hidden Race "sacrifice" ability comes at too high a cost, making it almost useless.

6) There need to be ways to get the Amulet of the Undertaker in a game when Azreal has the Hidden Race.

7) And maybe there should to be a way to allow going to level 868.

Issue 5) could perhaps be improved by starting at a lower cost, such as 50 for the first upgrade.  This would in effect give additional upgrades at 50, 100, 200, and 400 before getting above 500.  But then I ask myself, what did Woodmelon have in mind when he set the starting value at 500?

Issue 7) seems tricky to me, as I explained before.  868 is an unstable level.  If you battle 1000 Hell Hydras (with Woodmelon's HP increases) at level 868, you are apt to either jump to the next stopping point of 3732 (or above), or else go negative in experience and be set back to 50.  Perhaps there is some way this could be handled specially in the Creature/Hero Experience Overflow script.

At this point, with the possible exception of issue 7), I think your understanding of the problems and your ideas of what to do about them are better than mine, so do you want to make the script revisions for them?  I don't mind working on them, but my solutions might not be the ones you would prefer.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 28, 2011 04:17 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 16:40, 28 Jul 2011.

Point 7 is not necessary. If I want to get 868 I can disable the security script, no problem.

Azrael/hidden race is weaker than others and not fun to play after the original. I guess it was impossible (time speaking) for Woodmelon to think at all possibilities, make a full test of 16 replays possible and compare results. It is much easier for us to tweak or improve small details when not having to imagine the full construction at once.

So far Azrael/hidden race has a security code which lower his necromancy skill to a maximum of 500/battle (!!VRv1083&y-20>-1/v1083>500:S500;), which makes quite impossible to profit from the 500x2 constant cost. On the other side, the cloak is not available, so getting nightmares outside the town dwelling is unlikely. And how to sacrifice nightmares at such high cost if the corresponding necromancy not available? The security code could be enabled if the player has the cloak only, it makes sense to get "only" 500 nightmares.

If added the cloak, of course the game will be easy, but at least this faction (one of 16 possible) will reach her potential as he wanted it, obviously. I guess he simply did not test.

Moreover if the player flags one of the werewolfs/nightmares dwellings on the map, their stats are halved and abilities tweaked, it makes no sense, who would do that for +1 growth only? Not to mention the possible delirium crisis of the player who flags one of those after using emerald towers for months (+1 growth cool!, oops, speed back to 5, computer monitor destroyed).

I abandoned Azrael after seeing the low necromancy value (I already had enabled "monster grow past 4000" but useless in this case, long battles without reward).

I can make the scripts for all points except 1). I am not sure how to check for the orb, the hero is not always same, HE-1 seems to not work, and the tower may be be at a random location. I guess it needs some tricky way, when click on sky ship check who is the hero in garrison? What happens if there are two of them? And where is the town with the skyship?
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 28, 2011 05:34 PM

Okay, I will take a look at the Air Orb.  I can tell which Hero is the leader of the human faction as I did in the University Skills script (actually there is an easier way, but that way was fun), so one solution would be to give that Hero the Orb (I assume the player would always restart if that Hero is lost), with some message such as "Denethor, the Steward of the Tower, has the Orb delivered to %Z__ immediately."

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 28, 2011 06:32 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 18:42, 28 Jul 2011.

Uploaded new version with changes proposed HERE. Your last version + my changes.

1) The enchanter wife will block 100% of attacks (MF1 trigger)
2) ID153 was already fixed at 152 by you, did not touch
3) Fixed the Dragon King story/jump by assigning it to a circular function
4) Added 2 additional amulets if hidden race is selected (v1080=3)
One is in one event in front of north town, another one is given the next day all the other leaders were eliminated. You may want to change the message for both. The player will have to upgrade the amulets still. It could be assigned to last leader killed post battle but I did not want to overload the BA1 scripts.

Did not touch necromancy and orb of firmament. While the last if for you, the first must be discussed before.

I propose:

a) remove the necromancy limitation for werewolfs and keep it if Azrael has the cloak. Warning: the script is removing the cloak in battles from what I saw, so it may interfere, you know that better.
b) start the sacrifices at 50 is a good idea. 500 is a chinese joke. I will test it with 50 once is done and see if the balance gets ridiculous.
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 28, 2011 06:42 PM

Meanwhile, I changed the Air Orb event as proposed above and tested it for all colors, and uploaded the changed versions to Box.net just now.

Whatever you want to do about Azreal is fine with me.

Logistics:  once you have finished your Azreal changes and post the new (final?) maps, I will download them and add the Air Orb change (Magic Orbs script) and post the results, if this is satisfactory.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 28, 2011 06:46 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 20:11, 28 Jul 2011.

Did it, can you add your orb script to it and then see what can be done about Azrael necromancy?

I also like a lot Xarfax option to set all banners bonuses in one click. Is there a possible way to enable it for all leaders?
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 28, 2011 09:52 PM
Edited by JimV at 21:59, 28 Jul 2011.

I may not have done this right, but here's what I did:

Downloaded your last save, which was "The Dragon Slaughter v2_07J"

Revised the following scripts in it:  Magic Orbs, <Green>Azreal, Azreal's Story, and Help Menu Part II.

Here is what I did in <Green>Azreal:

!#VRv1100:S50; was 500--JHV

!?BA1&v1080=3;
!!HEv1078:O?y-20;
!!FU&y-20<0:E;
...
!!VRv1083&v1083>500/v1084>0:S500; limit # raised only if HEv1078 had Cloak oUK--JHV

The Leader Abilities for Azreal were modified in his Story and the Help Menu:


!!IF:M^If Azreal has a Fortress (Hidden Race), all his troops are undead and have no morale penalty in battle.  Also, Ctrl-Left-Clicking on Werewolves or Nightmares in the Hero Screen gives Azreal the opportunity to sacrifice some of them to get a stat improvement for that creature.  It takes %V1100 creatures for the first sacrifice, then the number doubles for each successive improvement, up to a maximum of 500,000.  Necromany skill will produce Werewolves instead of Skeletons.  With the Cloak of the Undead King equipped, Nightmares will be produced, but only 500 per battle.^;

I made the same changes to my latest version of TDS v2_07E, and have uploaded both maps to Box.net in TDS.rar.

My confusion is that I don't know if your other changes (Sorceress 100% block, etc.) were in that TDS v2_07J map which I downloaded - I know they are not in my TDS v2_07E.  But it will all get straightened out eventually.

The Ctrl-Left-Click Hero's flag to set WB's for all troops is a general script (probably one of the WoG scripts) which applies to all Heroes.

Edit - I saw the "necromany" typo above and corrected it in the maps and re-uploaded to http://www.box.net/shared/bj1eh6b50e - this is not the last typo I am sure, but one less.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 28, 2011 10:05 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 23:09, 28 Jul 2011.

Looks very good, thank you. My scripts were updated to TDS v2_07J before. Now they are all in, from what I see.

Question: will the check for cloak affect also regular Azrael? I see v1080=3 as condition , then should be okay, right?

Are you sure your orb script solves the problem? The previous HE-1 command was ignored half of time, isn't it better for key quests to put them in a function which repeats until it goes in, aside from the check for leaders which is okay?

Starting a test with Azrael again.
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 29, 2011 12:27 AM

I have never seen an HE command for a specific Hero (with a legal number 0-155) ignored, in hundreds of scripts, and I tested the change for all eight colors and was eight for eight in orbs given, so I don't feel there is the need for extra measures, myself.  If it makes you feel more comfortable you could add them. In my experience, there is always a reason why a computer program does or does not do something, although sometimes it is very difficult to figure out.  Therefore, for me, assuming a random failure might happen is a last resort.  The first resort is to determine why a script fails and address that problem.  In the case of a CM2 trigger, as I have seen elsewhere, it is quite possible that there is no active Hero for HM-1 to work with, for instance if the active Hero is outside a town, and a player clicks on the town to look inside it.  So one should never use HM-1 in that case.

In my tests, the Hero the orb was given to was not in the Tower (Snowing) for seven of the eight colors.  I put another Hero on the map outside Snowing for testing, with the Grail and a large army.  I first tested as Tan, giving the Grail to Orrin, then changed the outside Hero to Red, resaved the map, then started a new game as Red, and so on.

It is possible to have hard-coded problems within the H3 or WoG code, of course, in which case work-arounds like your method are necessary, for those of us who do not know the source code.  It is a good example of a "recursive function", by the way.  Not every programmer has coded a recursive function, so you should be proud of this.

Yes, to your second question, that part of the Azreal script is for when Green has the Hidden Race.  It did not affect Azreal when he did not have the Hidden Race before, and should not do so after the change either.

Good luck with testing.  I played Azreal with the Hidden Race for a month of game time to test the changes, and found that tedious.  I wish there was a way to let the AI play for me for a couple weeks, while I do something else.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 29, 2011 12:42 AM

I saw sometimes commands being ignored half of times, like placing the monster with 8th parchment in SGA, Placing the 2nd parchment on Sateda minotaur lair, and for example in TDS, Mutare not showing for no reason once. When there is a key quest and the game hangs if not triggered, I feel safer to add what you call a recursive function, instead of scaring the player with warnings about possible bugs.

I am playing with Azrael and it is tedious, but not more than regular Azrael. Some players may find fun after completing with other races to be invulnerable for once and torture the map at high speed (I defeated the 7 leaders before month 2).

This is a necro problem in any map anyway. I was able to gain +4 speed for werewolfs week one, thus I am wondering if adding some resources condition will not be better. Like 30 of each for every upgrade, like the POD. Easy ok, ridiculously easy not.
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 29, 2011 05:20 AM

I agree a recursive solution is less alarming to users than a bug-cheat, when no other solutions are known, but I would prefer first to try to discover why a script fails to execute.  There is this danger with the recursive solution:  if the failure is due to some rare combination of circumstances, but is not random - always fails under that rare combination - then when that condition occurs, the recursive function will repeat itself until it exhausts the stack for saving its return address, and then the program will abort.  The recursive solution only works for truly random problems - which I believe are and should be quite rare in computers.

Version 1.02 of SAR does not have such recursive functions, to my knowledge, and I have never seen those problems with it, in three complete games and numerous partial tests.  Of course, if a problem does not occur, the recursive function will never execute more than once, but is not necessary.

I am not saying your problems did not occur, but there may have been reasons for those problems which have since been removed, such as data corruption during map saves which could be removed the next time the map is edited and re-saved.  I have no proof, but have a strong suspicion that such corruption can occur when editing red and yellow squares.  Not that I would bet a lot of money on that guess, but there are other possibilities also.

It would be interesting to add a warning message to the recursive function - "Event set-up failed, retrying ... please report this occurrence to HC thread (link)." - to see if the recursive function can work successfully.

I will look at the Dragon King problem and see if I can come up with a reason.  Of course, we already know this map is operating in a region beyond what Heroes 3 was designed and tested for, which is another possible source of data corruption.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 29, 2011 06:13 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 06:28, 29 Jul 2011.

I simply think it is a memory location failure problem. All those scripts work perfectly on a day 1 test map, but after several months, trillions of scripts running in the background, they fail sometimes.
It was well visible in battle scripts, at some point, even triggering a simple dialog refused to show. If a script works on day one, it should work on day 1000 too, unless the variables were changed between. But it was not the case.

In Dragon King, the script is simple, once the dungeon is given to purple, the command bringing Mutare is next. In my game, the dungeon changed color, but Mutare did not show.

!!CA138/134/1&i>-1:O5 H0/153;
!!HE153&i>-1:U138/134/0;

A possible reason would be the use of two commands on the same line, but they usually work.

Right now am playing Azrael and he lost somehow necromancy, no idea why. I reloaded and everything fine...

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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 29, 2011 05:15 PM
Edited by JimV at 17:16, 29 Jul 2011.

I looked at the Mutare.GM1 save, but I wish I had a save from before the Dungeon was changed to Purple.  I have done tests in which I made the Dungeon neutral again, moved Orrin back, and placed a monster to trigger the change, and in dozens of those tests, Mutare Drake is always in the Dungeon (with an Infernal Troglodyte instead of a Troglodyte, unexpectedly).  Reloading the saved game in a fresh version of h3wog may have cleared some data corruption, or maybe there is some other reason.

I do know the cause of the extraneous message ("Attack Lords of Thunder ...").  After an IF:M message to Orrin, there are extraneous IF:D and IF:E commands, which are my fault.  During the translation, I noticed that Woodmelon often used the IF:D/IF:E commands to show a simple text message with no picture, which can be more reliably and efficiently done with an IF:M.  So I converted them all to IF:M's - except that one, where I neglected to delete the IF:D/IF:E.  I have deleted them now and re-uploaded the maps to Box.net.  (Version 2.07E there has the revised Sorceress and OrrinStory scripts, from 2.07J, but does not have your added Amulets).

The commands used by Woodmelon to put MD in the dungeon are suspect to me, for these reasons:

a) Purple has been eliminated from the game at that point (if you End Turn, Purple does not get a turn, even though the Dungeon has a Purple flag).

b) Mutare Drake is no longer a Purple Hero, and has been restored to the map (or attempted to be restored) without setting HE153:O5.

Yet the commands seem to work - at that point.  When I fight MD in the Dungeon, she has a Purple flag.

This might be a case where repeating the commands clears up the problem, in some mechanism such as this:  the first time, the command fails, but MD is set to Purple ownership; then the second time, the command works because now MD belongs to Purple.

Or maybe just saving the game prior to the Local Event which triggers the Dungeon set-up and re-loading would clear up some data problem.

I have had a game in progress with Orrin for most of a year (my time), but have been too busy with other projects to finish it.  Maybe I can get more information from it.  For one thing, I can save it before being sent to the underworld and see what happens when I repeat the last quest several times.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 29, 2011 05:46 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 18:38, 29 Jul 2011.

Before modifying the Mutare script I did several tests. While bringing an hero on neutrals side requires assigning him to a faction, bringing him in a town does not. He will automatically be given the color the town has.

**Azrael hidden race sacrifice is cumulative between werewolfs and nightmares. If you sacrificed twice the werewolfs for example, the first nightmares sacrifice will cost 200 creatures. He was a funny guy, Woodmelon.
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 29, 2011 10:55 PM

I finished my game as Orrin, saving just before the ambush event which triggers the Dungeon change.  In ten out ten tries, the Dragon King was in the Dungeon after the battle.  Disappointing, as it gives me nothing to work with.

However, this means the recursive function is the best current solution.  If it does cause an abort, the player will be forced to go back to a saved game, and that may cause the glitch not to occur the next time.  In the best case, simply repeating the commands may cure the glitch and the player will never know it happened.  In the worst case, if the map is corrupted in some way such that the glitch always happens and the recursive function always causes an abort, despite reloading, then if the player reports this we can study the saved game and get more data.  (The first two cases are much more likely than the worst case, I believe.)

I found where the Amulets were added (in a script), and added that script to my version 2.07E.  I also found a couple more wording changes (e.g., "841 Sharpshooters resurrection after battle" should be "841 Sharpshooters are resurrected after the battle"), so the TDS.rar package at Box.net has been updated yet again.

I got the "Cheater" designation at the end of the game.  This is because Woodmelon used BU:V0 to end a couple of battles, e.g. the Sorceress battle.  I did the same thing in "The Swords of Night and Day" recently and found out it makes the player a cheater (although ERM Help does not mention this) - so I changed my script to end  a battle without BU:V0, in TSoNaD.  I don't recall anyone complaining about this, so I am not proposing to fix it until someone does.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 30, 2011 12:15 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 00:36, 30 Jul 2011.

Little (Enormous in fact) problem in Azrael script.
SAVE

Azrael lose necromancy every time he flees a battle when playing hidden race.

Woodmelon removes necromancy in BA0

!!HEv1078&v1077>0:S12/0; remove Nec. skill if present

and restores it after battle, if Hero alive. But he forgot that the hero may run before being killed -which will surely happen on first week and highest difficulty-:

!?BA1&v1080=3;
!!HEv1078:O?y-20;
!!FU&y-20<0:E;

So the necromancy is restored later and only if he won:

!!HEv1078&v1077>0/y15=0:S12/v1077;

Which leaves no option to Azrael to escape any battle. It was not a bug as I believed first but a script omission. I propose moving the command giving back necromancy higher in the list and keep y-20<0 as condition for only special post battle troops.
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 30, 2011 12:56 AM

I am sorry to say that was a bug which I added.  I assumed that if a Hero lost a battle, the player would reload a previous saved game, so I eliminated a bunch of y-20 checks.  Here is the corrected version:

!?BA1&v1080=3;
!!HEv1078:O?y-20;
!!HEv1078&v1084>0:A-54 A-55 A-56 A4/130;
!!FU&v1077<1/v1084<1:E;
!!VRv1083&y-20>-1/v1083<1/v1084<1:S1;
!!VRv1083&y-20>-1/v1083<1/v1077<1:S1;
!!VRv1083&y-20>-1/v1083>500/v1084>0:S500; limit # raised only if HEv1078 had Cloak oUK--JHV
!!VRy12&y-20>-1/v1083>0:S65536 *v1083 +v1082;
!!UN&y-20>-1/v1083=1:N3/1/v1082/0;
!!UN&y-20>-1/v1083>1:N3/1/v1082/1;
!!IF&y-20>-1/v1083>0:Q1/21/y12/1^Practicing the dark arts of Necromancy, your hero is able to raise %V1083 of the enemy's dead as %Z1 servants.^;
!!HEv1078&y-20>-1/v1083>0:C2/v1082/v1083/1;
!!HEv1078:S12/?y15;
!!DO1369/v1085/8/1&v1085>0/v1085<8/y15=0:P0;
!!HEv1078&v1077>0/y15=0:S12/v1077;
!!DO1369/v1085/8/1&v1085>0/v1085<8/y15=0:P1;
!!HEv1078&v1077>0/y15=0/v2500>-1:Sv2500/v2501;
!!VRv1077:S0;

I have updated the files at Box.net with this (Woodmelon's original version with just the one-line change to disable the 500 limit unless the Hero has the Cloak).  I apologize for the inconvenience.  I'll see if I can rescue the saved game but it may take me a while.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 30, 2011 12:57 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 01:05, 30 Jul 2011.

Thanks, no need for save, I just will not escape, was only for a fast town portal, can avoid it for now. Can you add it to last version? (J)

Such saves can be restored in one click using a chinese WoG save hacker:

DOWNLOAD




It may help.
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JimV
JimV


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 30, 2011 01:29 AM

Meanwhile, I edited the script in your saved game and uploaded it to the same Box.net link where TDS.rar is (which has the Azreal script change mentioned in my previous post).  Thanks for the WoG Editor.

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