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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted March 27, 2012 01:20 PM |
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Cornicopia
Quote:
- battle loot to be randomly selected from the following types: 1) a small amount (e.g 2-4) of every resource except gold and mithril; 2) gold (300-500?); 3) mithril (3-5); 4) a small percentage of increased troops (2%-5%) (minimum of 1 for creatures of level 4 or less); or 5) nothing.
What do you think,JimV,of cornicopia that gives mithril?
I know that mithril is not so much used in TDS in comparison to TEW4,
but why not?
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2012 04:14 PM |
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Edited by JimV at 05:24, 28 Mar 2012.
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Quote:
What do you think,JimV,of cornicopia that gives mithril?
I think: very easy to do, using a daily timer (TM), and a DO-loop (DO) to check the current owner's (OW:C) Heroes (HE:O) for an equipped (HE:A) Cornucopia and adding mithril (OW:R) to that owner/player if so.
Whereas vampiric action for all of Gem's troops, with the percentage of hit points based on Gem's level: more complicated; hit points will have to be obtained at the MF1 trigger, not on one of Gem's troops, but on an enemy troop (in a battle that Gem is fighting); and the animation (BM:V) and sound effect (SN:P) can't be applied at that point as it would occur before the hit took place; instead a flag must be set (IF:V) for whichever of these events occurs next: a) an MF1 trigger in which the enemy troop which was struck retaliates against Gem's creature, or b) end of turn (BG1) if Gem's creature had the no-retaliation ability, or if the strike was itself a retaliation.
Seriously, neither of these proposed additions to TDS (nor any of the previous Super Hero additions) match the original spirit of the map as envisioned by Woodmelon. For example, not intended to reflect on your suggestion versus the other changes, but Woodmelon's plan for mithril was to place several Mithril Mines on the map and guard them with powerful creatures so that the player has to earn mithril.
However, Woodmelon's map provides a great laboratory for experimenting with such changes, so it is difficult to resist.
Update about another update: I have added vampiric strike capability to all of Gem's troops, where [(L/2)+10]% of the damage done in a strike is used to restore lost hit points of the striking troop (L = Gem's level). In my tests this does not make Gem a Super Hero, by my definition, but perhaps I am not making the best use of it.
The change is only in TDS version 2.07Dr. It includes 30 Crusaders added to the Garrison of Gem's Rampart, so I could test the vampiric strike on a double-strike creature. I have not added the description of this ability to Gem's text yet since it may not be a permanent change, in its present form.
Re-update: I thought of an enhancement which might make Gem a true Super Hero. In my first version of the vampiric-strike script, I made it act like a Vampire Lord, only restoring health up to the total amount with which the troop started the battle. In the current version, this restriction has been removed (commented out), so Gem can start a battle with four Green Dragons, and finish with five, if she is careful and lucky. It can still be slow going at first, depending on what random creatures are next to her Town, but eventually she should become unstoppable, like the Doctor and the Hulk.
Of course this new ability makes one of the special abilities which Woodmelon gave her redundant, and something should be done about that (if this version is approved).
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted March 28, 2012 11:48 AM |
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Idea from me
An idea from me-I think you could switch the vampiric ability from one troop to all troops and back from all troops to one troop.
The essence of the idea is that when all troops have the ability it acts exactly like vampire lord(no more creatures than she starts with)and when one troop-the limit is removed.
I suppose it should be done in the hero screen before a battle.
Second idea-when one creature has the vamp ability,you can check after a battle the quantity of the creature(in your example 4 dragons become 5)and subtract the cost for such creature from the resources Gem has.
I dont know how the second idea should be done.
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 28, 2012 02:41 PM |
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Thanks for the ideas, Master_Learn. I also woke up with an idea, to cap the total hit points at 125% of the starting hitpoints. This would allow Gem to turn 4 dragons into 5, then 5 into 6 (in the next battle), 6 into 8, 8 into 10, and so on. Otherwise she would be too super, and the map would be too easy.
I think your suggestions are intended to have a similar effect, but by a more complicated method (given that I already scripted a limit of 100%, before commenting it out, and can easily restore it at the 125% level).
There is precedent in the map for getting more creatures from a battle without paying for them: Necromancy, and the Doctor's elementals. Gem might accuse of us masculine bias if we applied a restriction to her which we do not apply to Azrael or the Doctor.
Still something needs to be done to eliminate the inconsistency between Woodmelon's special vampiric ability (which applies to only one creature type, and is paid for in advance when that creature type is selected, but does not allow new creature generation), and my version. Perhaps your suggestions point the way to a compromise.
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daoanhanhdung
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 28, 2012 04:44 PM |
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Quote:
Thanks for the ideas, Master_Learn. I also woke up with an idea, to cap the total hit points at 125% of the starting hitpoints. This would allow Gem to turn 4 dragons into 5, then 5 into 6 (in the next battle), 6 into 8, 8 into 10, and so on. Otherwise she would be too super, and the map would be too easy.
You are both right.
Let's take a close look at the following pictures:
(Day 2, Week 1, Month 1)
[url=http://www.upanh.com/untitled_upanh/v/0rz6ay7hejy.htm] [/url]
And:
[url=http://www.upanh.com/untitled_2_upanh/v/5rz61y2u6qd.htm] [/url]
This one above is Gem in Day 4, Week 1, Month 1.
She is getting much stronger for such a short time. She is definitely one of super Heroes.
Change is adviceable.
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 28, 2012 05:20 PM |
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Edited by JimV at 18:38, 28 Mar 2012.
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The current version of TDS v2.07Dr at Box.net has the 125% limit. More testing is needed, but right now I am thinking of combining Woodmelon's, Salamandre's, Master_Learn's and my ideas. That is, use Woodmelon's system for selecting a creature type at Woodmelon's price, which is similar to what Master_Learn proposed, but replace his vampiric script with my new one which allows creature growth during battle up to 25%.
This will require eliminating some of Woodmelon's code, which makes me uncomfortable (although it would only be in the 2.07Dr version), so I may decide to try leaving his script as it is and giving Gem some other added enhancement, such as the Hypnosis power which I mentioned previously.
Update - I have made one further change, from 125% to 120% (BM:B?*6 +2:5). This will still grow three to four (3*6+2=20, :5=4), but will slow down further increases. Further reduction in the growth factor may be necessary depending on how this tests.
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eu33
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 28, 2012 07:18 PM |
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hi !
Hi there ! May i suggest using gem`s tent as a super tent that casts a modified resurrection spell that does the desired effects on the target unit ?
being a one cast/round it would be a bit more balanced than a passive ability. Short battles - few unit gained, long battle - more unit gained but more casualties.
Dan D.
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 28, 2012 09:09 PM |
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Hello Dan. That's an interesting idea, which fits well with Gem's role in the map, but I am far enough along in the present method to feel the effects of the sunk-cost fallacy, so I want to continue to develop it for a while.
My latest idea is:
1) Get back to Salamandre's original proposal in which all of Gem's creatures have vampiric ability, but only to a maximum of 100% of their starting hit points.
2) But since that doesn't help Gem much at the start of the game, keep Woodmelon's special vampiric ability, with the following changes:
3) To designate a creature type for the special ability the fee will seven minus the creature's MA:L level (0-6), times Gem's level. So at the start it will be the same as Woodmelon's fee, but will increase with Gem's level.
4) The designated creature will be able to absorb enemy hit points up to a maximum of 120% of the troop's starting hit points.
5) But there will also be an absolute limit in gained creatures of seven minus the creature's level, times 80. That is, 560 for Centaurs, 480 for dwarves, ..., and 80 for Green Dragons. For comparison, the Doctor is limited to a maximum of 500 generated Elementals per battle. Note there are battles against 50,000+ enemy creatures in TDS, so colors that don't have a creature-generation ability are difficult to play, unless they resort to Ghosts.
Coincidentally though, there will have to be some changes to the WoG War Machines I script which is used in TDS. It gives a First Aid Tent the ability to Resurrect creatures, but if you click its wand cursor on a troop which has no dead units, the game crashes - at least I think that is what happened to me today. I have never played TDS as Gem except for brief tests, and do not use the WoG WM I script in wogified maps, so I was not aware of this bug.
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eu33
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 28, 2012 09:25 PM |
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Quote:
3) To designate a creature type for the special ability the fee will seven minus the creature's MA:L level (0-6), times Gem's level. So at the start it will be the same as Woodmelon's fee, but will increase with Gem's level.
The awkward part will come when the bill is due 
Day 1 : you defeat a swarm of imps and resurrect 560(lets assume) centaurs. What then ? if you dont have the gold you cant get them ?
It realy doesnt seem to be a superpower.
Dan D.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted March 28, 2012 10:53 PM |
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Resurection
eu33,just to remind you about Gem and ressurection:
For all of Gem's troops except for Vampire Lords, Blood Dragons, and Ghosts, there is chance of [1% times Gem's level] to be resurrected/healed at the end of each battle round. The amount of health restored is equal to Expert Resurrection (50*SP+160), times [one plus one more for very 34 levels Gem has attained] (3*HL/100 +1).
So your desired effects should be which?
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted March 28, 2012 11:01 PM |
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Gem
JimV,Gem welcomes you to play her!
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eu33
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 28, 2012 11:21 PM |
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Quote:
eu33,just to remind you about Gem and ressurection:
For all of Gem's troops except for Vampire Lords, Blood Dragons, and Ghosts, there is chance of [1% times Gem's level] to be resurrected/healed at the end of each battle round. The amount of health restored is equal to Expert Resurrection (50*SP+160), times [one plus one more for very 34 levels Gem has attained] (3*HL/100 +1).
So your desired effects should be which?
I didn't suggest any effect. i just found that this: "subtract the cost for such creature from the resources Gem has." is not a good way to balance gem to dr's or hulk`s abilities.
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 28, 2012 11:25 PM |
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Edited by JimV at 23:35, 28 Mar 2012.
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Quote:
The awkward part will come when the bill is due.
The bill uses Woodmelon's standard mechanism (as used in v2.07E and 2.07J) and is due up front. At the start of the game, no creature has the special ability. To get it or switch it from one creature to another you must go to Gem's Hero Screen and follow the instructions given in Gem's start-up text.
The version I described was just uploaded to Box.net. I have revised the text descriptions for Gem for this case (v2.07Dr), although it is probably not final.
P.S. You will not get 560 Centaurs on day 1 because Gem will not start with 2800 Centaurs (20% of 2800 = 560). The absolute number limit (e.g., 560) will govern in the mid game when you have accumulated thousands of whichever creature you have selected, so that the percentage limit does not allow geometric growth.
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alisapa1211
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2012 06:06 AM |
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Something about the commander again:
I have Grandmaster Master Magic skill which states that it would give 95% magic dmg reduced, but in the stat board it only has 70%, which is kinda true since my Doctor keeps killing him via AOE spells everytime. And again I hope there would be some tweaks for him to make use of the Magic Power stat, this is the Commander of a super wizard after all, it would be a shame if he can't cast any spell  .
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Also, is it a good idea to make you unable to farm troops (Docter, Azreal) via the Fairie Dragon quest?! Here is my little army after farming for awhile (I farm near an oasis so it's possible to farm indefinitely even in one day):
Henchmen's stats:
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 29, 2012 08:19 AM |
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If you uncheck the option "Commander has all skills" at the top of the second check-list menu, the Doctor's Commander will always have 100% Magic Resistance at all Magic levels. I will see if I can find settings which work when the all-skills option is selected. Thanks for calling this to my attention. I had never noticed it. (I only use Armageddon when I have Armageddon's Blade from the Pandora's Box.)
Woodmelon gave Astral Spirits the Slayer spell. In normal play (version 2.07J), I use the Doctor's Commander as a powerful melee fighter (attacks twice, all around, no retaliation, maximum damage, paralyzes) in the early to middle part of the game, while building up my Elementals, and then just use it to shoot clones. So for me it is useful for a while the way it is, and later not so much. As a damage spell-caster, it would be pitiful compared to the Doctor, useful only for puncturing clones, which it can do by shooting. Focusing on the Doctor's spell power gave more bang for the buck. The Doctor already had a powerful spell system set up by Woodmelon, which could be easily amplified.
All of which are my excuses for why I am not very interested in developing creature spell casting for TDS. I did a bit of it in "The Swords of Night and Day" and more in "Shining Force" but those projects did not already have about 50 existing scripts which any new systems have to be made compatible with (as I am having to do to merge Gem's new ability with her existing ones and with the War Machines script and the Suit of the Celestial Warrior and the Genie script).
(Of course anyone who is willing to invest the time can read ERM Help and make their own script changes to any downloaded map.)
I have won the game twice (which is not a lot, of course) and have never played the Fairie Dragon game. Previously Salamandre, who has won the game multiple times as all colors, has commented that he played the game once or twice but now finds it tedious and skips it (or something like that). If it provides you a clever way to make the game easier, I have no problem with that. The map has many features and there are many different ways to play it. The Fairie Dragon game is as it was received from Woodmelon and then Salamandre and I would need their votes to change it.
I'm sorry not to be more obliging. If there is a groundswell of opinions similar to yours I will probably change my mind.
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alisapa1211
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2012 08:43 AM |
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Aren't the spells casted in combat get boosted by Doctor's Sorcerer Skill?! Because I have tested by making my creatures have 100% chance to cast Chain Lightning after attacks. CL deals about 10k damage or something when the Docter at high level, and this is because creatures have default Magic Power, but Commander is not (he can have hundreds of Magic Power if farmed properly), combines with double strike and barbarian axe he can cast 3 spells in a row, I think that's lethal enough. Or you can make him work like a living scrool, casting random spells everything a stack takes an action. And again I don't really care if the Commander is useful or not, but it makes him suits Docter's "Spam powerful spells to death" more.
I'm fine with the Fairie thingy, but maybe some caps for Emerald Towers?! Too strong late game I guess.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 29, 2012 01:32 PM |
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Back in 2005 or earlier, when Woodmelon did his game, random dices were an interesting feature, he used same (almost) script in Chaser. Today I used similar script in TEW IV, fight xx dragons for small chance to get one relic from a combo and I saw it is not popular at all, people complaining it takes too long. And I agree.
In TDS, if all fights within "the game" could be played in quick, then would be both a way to level fast and get tomes, but some fight configurations require to switch to manual (supreme phoenix) to avoid big loses, no matter your strength. Quick combat seems broken when neutrals have rebirth and can not handle it without ridiculous casualties. And here is what is tedious, fight 50 battles in a row then lose half army to supremes then need reload.
@Edit: a little script which shows the monster type we will fight and ask for quick/manual battle confirmation would somehow eliminate a bit of the problem I think.
I find tedious to manually fight 100 times same kind of battles until we get 4 tomes, and then probably get a relic we don't need. One idea would be to limit the relics to the ones we really need and stop the game after we get them, means 2-3 games max. But the real issue is that at the point we reach the game, we are already too strong to need anything, and this is TDS only weakness IMHO, the lack of balance for later stages.
Guilty = emerald towers. But without them, hard to balance our strength vs the incredible neutrals growth. Would need again full and exhaustive tests.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 29, 2012 04:40 PM |
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Edited by JimV at 17:10, 31 Mar 2012.
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alisapa1211 and Salamandre, those are very interesting points. In my (limited) experience with TDS, I have not used the Emerald Towers excessively. Playing as Orrin, I accumulated about 250,000 ghosts, and used the bug in the Genie/Henchman scripts (since fixed) to convert them to Genies. I upgraded the Genies, but only half a dozen times. Playing as the Super Doctor, I used his Elemental-generation ability to generate a massive army, which along with his spell damage, was enough to finish with with only a few visits to Emerald Towers. But those two characters are the easiest for me to play, and if I tried other colors I would need many more upgrades.
The reason I added the numerical limit to the new (proposed) Gem creature-generation ability was that 120%, or any geometric progression, goes to infinity rapidly compared to a linear progression. The Emerald Towers uses a 125% geometric progression, and could be modified similarly: +25% as long as the increment is less than, say, 100, and then a fixed increment of 100 from then on. Woodmelon applied this same thinking to the Doctor's Elemental generation. (However, the Heroes 3 program does not have a numerical limit for Necromancy.)
Anyway, there seems to be a lot of room for further development, if we can agree on some changes and they test well. Meanwhile, I have revised the Enhanced Commanders script in both 2.07J and 2.07Dr so that the Doctor's Commander will always have 100% Magic Resistance no matter which Commander skill setting is used. (Version 2.07E has the standard WoG Enhanced Commanders script which Woodmelon used.) The download site http://www.box.com/shared/bj1eh6b50e has the changed versions. (Also, I think the bug in the War Machines I script - First Aid Tent Resurrection - has been fixed.)
Update (at http://www.box.com/shared/bj1eh6b50e):
Per request, I gave the Doctor's Commander an Implosion spell (instead of Counterstrike). It appears to fire at the Advanced level and use the Commander's Magic Power, but it is not affected by the Doctor's Sorcery skill.
Also, not having heard any more feedback or ideas on Lord Haart, I have revised his text and the Help Menu text to describe his new obstacle-placement ability.
With these changes, I am out of ideas for revisions, until more bugs are found.
Further update: after play-testing as Gem more, I have rectified a couple of oversights:
1) Now when the damage is greater than the total hit points of the struck stack, the percentage of absorbed hit points is based on the struck stack hit points rather than the damage.
2) Since eventually there can be two or more troops of Gem's creatures which can generate the maximum amount of additional creatures, the maximum amount has been halved, e.g., 40 Green Dragons instead of 80.
Notes:
a) When the chi-absorption stack animation is played, it somehow over-rides any standard battle animation which immediately follows it. For example, if one of Gem's troops hits a stack of Efreet Sultans, first the absorption animation will be displayed, and then instead of the Fire Shield animation, the same animation will be played again. Since this glitch is harmless and would be difficult to fix, I have not attempted to fix it. (Consider it another magical effect of Gem's special abilities.)
b) If the battle ends when one of Gem's special creatures kills an enemy stack, no absorption of hit points from that stack will take place. I could fix this, but since it adds another consideration to battle strategy (how to maximize additional creatures gained in the battle), I have decided to keep it.
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alisapa1211
Famous Hero
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posted March 31, 2012 05:55 PM |
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My armies after playing Gem for a while:
Not as easy to farm as Doctor, but still powerful I guess (can't split into multiple stacks for quick combat cause dragons will accidently blow off each other with their breath attacks, via retaliate of course).
Quote:
Update (at http://www.box.com/shared/bj1eh6b50e):
Per request, I gave the Doctor's Commander an Implosion spell (instead of Counterstrike). It appears to fire at the Advanced level and use the Commander's Magic Power, but it is not affected by the Doctor's Sorcery skill.
It appears to me that only certain spells get boosted by Sorcery skill if casted by creatures (Chain Lightning, Inferno, Meteor Shower,etc but not Armageddon and Implosion  ). Here is the test:
As you can see, the spell book is still there so it's not Doctor who casted it. And this is Doctor at level 63, can even improved the damaged more (combine with cast before/after attack + double strike + clones it's possible for me to cast 8-9 Chain Lightning per stack).
Also is it possible to make Gem's Fist Aid tents become untargetable?! It's painful to see the enemies one shots it after you spending lots of time to upgrade it. 30% block isn't really enough to save them at all.
And thanks for the update as usual!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 31, 2012 06:02 PM |
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Woodmelon would experience a hearth attack if see first screen
Curious about how many we can get before some serious bug plays in. There is a cap in damage overflow also.
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Era II mods and utilities
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