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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 31, 2012 06:20 PM |
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Edited by JimV at 03:09, 01 Apr 2012.
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I believe Gem's Commander supplies her with as many Tents (in battle) as the Commander's level, so if you lose her Tent in one battle, you will have it again in the next anyway (unless you also lose your Commander and don't get it back before the next battle).
I think you did your farming with the version previous to the current one, and might have only half as many creatures with the current one. I also considered reducing the percentage of hit points from 20% to 14%, but have not done so yet. All of the 2.07Dr leaders destroy the balance of the game, but I would prefer to only do so enough to make playing versus 4x creatures as easy as playing versus 2x creatures in 2.07J. However, that would take endless play-testing for which I don't have the energy. As it is, Gem has a few difficult battles at the start of the game, but by day two or three everything is easy (until the big events). I think the same could be said for 2.07J at creature-doubling, though.
I never used Quick Combat when I started playing WoG, and rarely use it now, being a creature of habit. So I don't have the experience to know what adjustments to make to it. Salamandre has proposed one. Possibly another one would be to give the option to remove Dragon Breath from all of the attacking side creatures.
Thanks for your comments and the interesting information about creature-casting.
P.S. to Salamandre - once again I took a long time to type and proof-read my comment and found a new comment before it. I have "farmed" ghosts up to over 300,000 in this game, Storm Elementals to over 200,000, and Sacred Phoenixes to over 120,000, but I don't think it will be easy to get to those numbers with Gem's special creature, as there was a limit of 80 (now 40) per troop per combat (for level 7 creatures such as Diamond Dragons).
In fact, now that I look at that screen again, I wonder if it was done with the beta version which had no limit.
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alisapa1211
Famous Hero
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posted March 31, 2012 06:38 PM |
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@Salamandre: Try merging all stacks into 500k Magic Elements and everything still functions properly, the damage is capped at about 2 bil dmg in my test.
@Jim: I actually tested it in the new beta version (only 80 creatures per battle). Again I can reach that high thanks to splitting into multiple stacks and abuse the Fairie Dragon's quest.
For the tents you will lose the upgrade if they got destroyed, and even if commander can summon them they can still be one shotted easily, one stack of high level creature and everything is gone.
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 31, 2012 06:57 PM |
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I forgot about your Faerie Dragon Game trick. I don't think I should try to balance against that since not everyone will think of it, but it gives me another incentive not to worry about Quick Combat since at least you had to work hard to get that many creatures.
Losing my Tents is also something I have never worried about, knowing I could get them back, and at least they occupy an enemy who could be targeting a troop which I don't want to lose. So I never upgrade them. (I have never used the War Machines option outside of this game either, I am more of a traditional Heroes 3 player.)
My feeling is that, although I understand the frustration, on the other hand, what interest would the game have if all the Hero's creatures were invincible? (I am applying what my old boss, Frank Ryan, called, "The Theory of Ridiculous Limits".)
Thanks for your information and ideas, though. Don't let my laziness discourage you from offering them. Sometimes it takes a while for an idea to sink into me.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 31, 2012 07:14 PM |
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Quote:
Also is it possible to make Gem's Fist Aid tents become untargetable?! It's painful to see the enemies one shots it after you spending lots of time to upgrade it. 30% block isn't really enough to save them at all.
What about playing carefully and keep it as I did? It makes the game only more interesting. Also don't forget that you can upgrade the tents >10 times/day, regardless what towns have the dwelling. Later game of course.
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Era II mods and utilities
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alisapa1211
Famous Hero
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posted March 31, 2012 07:20 PM |
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Well nvm, I would rarely use those tents when play as super Gem (but at the same time I haven't tried normal game to test their usefulness so I guess I don't the right to say much about them). One more thing can you make Gem be able to upgrade tents as many times as she wants?! Only 1 time/per day/per town would take lots of time, then they get destroyed =  !!! Or some options to retore the tents after the match. Same for the henchmen, takes lots of time to visit a town everytime they get killed.
That said the only thing I'm interested now is that I hope you would test the Commander to see what happen if he can cast cast Chain Lightning with high magic power. Also is it possible to make him cast like this?
Because I wonder if I'm able to complete the game with Super Doctor by using only magics (use Sacred Phoenix + as much + cast as possible to stall). The commander would be a great help to this you let that happen  !!!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 31, 2012 07:32 PM |
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Quote:
Only 1 time/per day/per town would take lots of time[...]
Same for the henchmen, takes lots of time to visit a town everytime they get killed.
I like those restrictions, makes me check the henchman HP and choose another battle strategy if close to death. Again, is a matter of playing style. Also towns are placed very close each other, so it does not really take ages to visit one. For tents, use town portal and upgrade them in all towns at once. In about 1 week you can get level 100 tent, then try to keep it safe.
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Era II mods and utilities
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alisapa1211
Famous Hero
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posted March 31, 2012 07:53 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Only 1 time/per day/per town would take lots of time[...]
Same for the henchmen, takes lots of time to visit a town everytime they get killed.
I like those restrictions, makes me check the henchman HP and choose another battle strategy if close to death. Again, is a matter of playing style. Also towns are placed very close each other, so it does not really take ages to visit one. For tents, use town portal and upgrade them in all towns at once. In about 1 week you can get level 100 tent, then try to keep it safe.
You can have lvl 100 tent after 1 week?! I can only upgrade 5 times/day = 35 times per weak, would take about 3 weaks to do so...
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 31, 2012 08:00 PM |
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Depends on how many rampart type blacksmith you have. I was maybe lucky to have 8-10 from the existing 18 towns.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 31, 2012 10:32 PM |
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Edited by JimV at 03:16, 01 Apr 2012.
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As you know, many people (probably thousands in China) have won the game with Woodmelon's version 2.05, facing Fiona, Roland, the Dragons at the four corners, and so on, without any of the advantages of 2.07J, much less 2.07Dr. Many may have even done it without using Ghosts, unlike me (although I don't know how - perhaps mega amounts of upgrades at the Emerald Towers).
The Super Doctor can cast Chain Lightning once for every (still living) stack, or four times on a single stack. (My choice was to get Armageddon's Blade and cast Armageddon with option 1 or 2.) There has to be some challenge in the game, some battles which can be lost if they are fought too soon or not carefully enough, or it is not a game.
Yes, all the things you mention can be done, but they don't seem necessary to me. If anything, I think I have made 2.07Dr much too easy. Really, if I was able to win with the Super Doctor (without a Commander who cast Implosion) then I am sure you can - I am not the most expert player.
The Commander-casting idea is interesting, but I think it belongs in some other map. Perhaps I will add it to the Sorcery Quest in "Friends and Foes".
Edit - but if you want to try it in a custom version, open TDS_2.07Dr in the WoG Map Editor, use Tools/Specification/Timed Events to find the Enhanced Commanders script at Day 605, and change the spell number from 18 to 19 in these lines:
!!BMx16&y1=182/v997=0/v1004=140:U4/18; Dr's Astral Spirit gets Implosion--JHV
!!BMx16&y1=191/v997=0/v1005=140:U4/18; Dr's Astral Spirit gets Implosion--JHV
That is,
!!BMx16&y1=182/v997=0/v1004=140:U4/19; Dr's Astral Spirit gets Implosion--JHV
!!BMx16&y1=191/v997=0/v1005=140:U4/19; Dr's Astral Spirit gets Implosion--JHV
(You could also change the comment from Implosion to Chain Lightning, but this is not necessary.)
There are several ways of doing this. One is to right-click in the event window, select "Select All" from the menu, then Ctrl-c (copy), and paste the script into a text editor, then do a Find/Replace: U4/18 --> U4/19. Then copy and paste the script back into the Timed Events (Select All again before pasting). But don't add any carriage returns/linefeeds in the text editor. (Scripts should only be edited in the Script Editor except for small changes.)
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alisapa1211
Famous Hero
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posted April 01, 2012 11:27 AM |
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Quote:
(although I don't know how - perhaps mega amounts of upgrades at the Emerald Towers)
This, as long as you don't balance Emerald Towers TDS is still very easy, not to mention Force Field and stuff. If you look at my Magic Elementals army it's obvious that I can destroy everyone in round 1 without using any magic at all. I don't mind about the power, what I care is the interesting features in this map and it would be very fun to see your Heroes, Commander, Henchmens and troops synergy with each other. You could also make Gem's commander functions like her tents instead (because he's also much durable than them), something like that.
Quote:
Edit - but if you want to try it in a custom version, open TDS_2.07Dr in the WoG Map Editor, use Tools/Specification/Timed Events to find the Enhanced Commanders script at Day 605, and change the spell number from 18 to 19 in these lines:
!!BMx16&y1=182/v997=0/v1004=140:U4/18; Dr's Astral Spirit gets Implosion--JHV
!!BMx16&y1=191/v997=0/v1005=140:U4/18; Dr's Astral Spirit gets Implosion--JHV
That is,
!!BMx16&y1=182/v997=0/v1004=140:U4/19; Dr's Astral Spirit gets Implosion--JHV
!!BMx16&y1=191/v997=0/v1005=140:U4/19; Dr's Astral Spirit gets Implosion--JHV
(You could also change the comment from Implosion to Chain Lightning, but this is not necessary.)
There are several ways of doing this. One is to right-click in the event window, select "Select All" from the menu, then Ctrl-c (copy), and paste the script into a text editor, then do a Find/Replace: U4/18 --> U4/19. Then copy and paste the script back into the Timed Events (Select All again before pasting). But don't add any carriage returns/linefeeds in the text editor. (Scripts should only be edited in the Script Editor except for small changes.)
Thanks for this, I have tested and the result is mavelous:
Doctor's Chain Lightning:
Commander's Chain Lightning:
Combine with the feature I suggest it's possible for him to become a Mini Super Doctor now !!!
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 01, 2012 03:31 PM |
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Edited by JimV at 15:32, 01 Apr 2012.
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Looking back, I see I mis-interpreted this comment: "Because I wonder if I'm able to complete the game with Super Doctor by using only magics (use Sacred Phoenix + as much + cast as possible to stall)." Somehow I morphed that into "I don't know if I can win the game without a Commander who casts Chain Lightning" - sorry about that. In fact I think you can finish the game with just the Doctor's spells and Sacred Phoenixes with a lot of rebirths, as far as the battles which aren't on Cursed Ground are concerned (and for Cursed battles, more spell-casters won't help much anyway). Get Armageddon's Blade, and with the Doctor at level 100 and 125 Power, three or four rounds of multiple Armageddons will take out the Tower Dragons and everyone else whom I can think of.
Really, we need another map to use your ideas in a balanced fashion (although TDS makes a great laboratory for them, bwoohoohaha - as the saying goes). For example a map with a Commander sprite who looks like the Doctor, and an army of just him and a couple of his sidekicks. Or maybe it should be Merlin or Gandalf instead of the Doctor. Or Doctor Strange, from Marvel Comics. (An Enchanter looks like him, so it would be an easy mod.) Also with the Hulk, played by either an Ogre Leader or a plain Ogre (the Ogre Leader's sword is a bit out of character). The possibilities of WoG are endless.
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2012 08:07 PM |
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I'm sorry to say it, but the game filters primary skills values by MIN(X, 99) everywhere and your patch changes those limits in some places. So it's not about simple displaying high values and thus the patch should include all > 100 places theoretically to be full. Just a piece of information.
P.S. By the way, I brought back TL trigger in Era because you use it and basically it does not load the game too much.
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2012 02:51 AM |
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I should not make a long reply since I think I have discussed my search method and testing previously, but to summarize, I tested for use as well as display, e.g., how much damage does a spell do in combat at Powers of 100 to 125, and I found addresses by attaching a debugger to see where Primary Skill values were being accessed during game events, such as combat, level promotions, equipping/unequipping artifacts, visiting Magic Wells and Magic Springs, etc. Also I finished a game of TDS with the latest (52 addresses) patch, and did not notice any problems.
If I were a betting man, I would bet that I have missed some rare events, or perhaps events which occur with AI players only, but I would also bet that there are some false positives in your list - since I don't know how it was generated and whether it is the result of testing or just a search for the constant 99, which I think (based on my searches) occurs in some places which aren't related to Primary Skills. Certainly any code which accesses a PS value and compares it to 99 should be changed, but those are what I searched for.
I should note that most of my testing occurred under WoG 3.58f (that was where I did a complete TDS play-test), with specific events (but not a complete game) also tested in a test map under Era 1.8.
Of course what you do in Era is your decision. I will continue to use the script version in WoG 3.58f (adding it to if and as necessary).
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 04, 2012 02:55 AM |
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Same here, I am very happy with the patch and worked correctly in all my long tests, with several heroes having >100 stats, all situations possible, spells, various fights, never found any problem with.
I don't know more complex maps than TEW IV or TDS, if patch worked in, I can't see where could be problems, but it is Bersy decision, I am not aware of possible technical details. Anyway, we have the script which can be used in custom maps, so nothing is lost. Very grateful to Jim for it.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2012 04:53 PM |
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JimV, it's ok then. I thought the patch was intended only for displaying high values as Valery told me, but now I see that breaking caps in formulas was the goal also. So if you don't mind, I'll include it in off state, so players could turn it on any time to play with high caps.
/Offtopic
Checking the constant is not hard, I suppose. There should be hero structure field access (+476H, +477H, +478H, +479H) in the code. If so, then it's primary skills.
Demo
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2012 09:14 PM |
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Salamandre, thank you very much for your encouraging words.
Bersy, thanks as usual or sharing your expertise. I was not aware of those indices (but have seen them in my searches). The work would have been simpler and more thorough with your knowledge. My only trick, as I said, was to first find the addresses where PS skills were stored (which varies from session to session), then use a debugger to find code which accessed those locations, then search the following code with a disassembler for comparisons to 99. (Salamandre helped a lot by testing and finding several events which I had not thought to test.)
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2012 01:48 PM |
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I uploaded my pack of plugins with set up OllyDebugger (portable): Download (3 MB)
The process of constants checking fits the 4 screens:
1
2
3
4
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2012 02:12 AM |
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Thanks for the download and information, Bersy.
Looking at it reminded me of something which I forgot to mention in my second-to-last comment, which is probably the main reason that your list of constants is much bigger than my number of addresses.
That is, of course, that each portion of h3wog code that limits Primary Skills to 99 uses two separate 99 constants to do so: first, a comparison (e.g., cmp al,99), then, depending on the result of the comparison, a command to reset the PS value (e.g., mov esx,99). To prevent the resetting, it is only necessary to change the comparison constant. So my list of 52 addresses accounts for 104 constants.
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2012 09:38 AM |
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You're definitely right 
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alisapa1211
Famous Hero
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posted April 10, 2012 03:26 PM |
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So excuse me JimV, will there be any updates in the near future?! Just asking  !!!
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