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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ This Super Thread is 525 pages long: 1 70 ... 114 115 116 117 118 ... 140 210 280 350 420 490 525 · «PREV / NEXT»
War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted January 16, 2011 10:16 AM

I have been working on a HoMMVI style dwarf faction in my mind for a bit now.
I admit I have not bothered reading through most of the discussion. But I agree that HoMMV Fortress was intresting but had a bit of Dwarf overkill. I like Dwarves a lot, they were my favorite faction of HoMMV until we got Orcs.

My line-up would be something in the lines of:

Core:
Defender
Skirmisher
Lava Toad

Elite:
Bear Rider
Cave Troll
Rune Cleric

Champion:
War Mammoth

I have a few pic to go with them and a few scraps of made-up lore, but perhaps I should dedicate a thread to this.
Whatever the case, I certainly hope that Dwarves return in a future Expansion. I think the first War under the Mountain (Dwarves<>Dark-Elves) would make a great campaign or at least a great part of it.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted January 16, 2011 10:21 AM
Edited by MattII at 10:26, 16 Jan 2011.

Quote:
Some of the seemingly most random Heroes III/IV (I disregard the previous two games for obvious reasons) line-ups actually aren't that random as one will find out if he/she plays not only the campaigns of the two games, but also the Might & Magic games. And Chronicles. Why not give it a try?
Three reasons, those titles are going to be old, and thus not too common, they're going to cost money, which I don't have a lot of right now, and I don't have a huge amount of free time either.

Quote:
As for the dwarves - it is not necessary to be exactly overlords and certainly they don't need to be the strongest creatures (and they aren't the strongest creatures in the Heroes V Fortress either). They can be taskmasters. Or guardians of Sheogh's gates (which they are) of vast knowledge, but insufficient physical power to handle the Demons on their own, who employ various types of Rune magic to control various types of local, summoned and artificial creatures. Or some extreme isolationists who hate to show themselves on the surface and only some chosen and adept (practically altered and considered different kind of dwarves) generals lead their armies when needed. Or a local anti-demon alliance, headed by the included sentient races and the dwarves just happen to be the most influential among the others (first among equal or something). If it is SO necessary, you can add a single dwarf unit to the line-up. But that's all.
Good luck finding another 5 or 6 creatures that live underground and might fit into the Dwarven mythos.

As for my chosen lineup:
Core
Propper > Miner
Kob > Kobold
Bolter > Dampbolter

Elite
Fyrd > Huskarl
Cave Bear > War Bear
Runekeeper > Runecarver

Champion
Giant > Colossus

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted January 16, 2011 10:39 AM

@Zenofex
And your concept of similarity is: Units of the same race = identical twins seperated at birth.

So the Fortress was full of Dwarves. So what? No, really. Give me a fact and not an opinion to prove to me that it was a mistake.

And even though they were dwarves, their designs still varied greatly and they were not generic and simple. They had cultural flavors and a great personality and attitude to them. Which is something that you could not say for H3's designs. The lot of them were totally generic and so painfully simplistic that you would not care to have another look at them. Save perhaps for the Troglodyte, they had no other memorable design to speak of.

Let me put it another way. The ONLY common thing between the Fortress' line-up, was the same race. Other than that, the units were COMPLETELY different from each other.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 16, 2011 10:40 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 10:51, 16 Jan 2011.

If you want me to give you a good line-up with interesting creatures which have interesting abilities, you will have to wait. Game devs are given months for this job, so you can't expect me to come-up with something in several minutes (although I can, but will be imperfect at best). If you so want to know, I can come with a theoretic Fortress line-up in the coming one-two weeks. I'm on paid leave at the moment but it ends tomorrow and the job's not the only consideration, so my time's scarce.
kodial, sorry, I think it will be a waste of time. You think that the Fortress creatures are different enough and that's pretty much sufficient for me to conclude that I'll not be able to convince you otherwise. And you don't want to be convinced anyway, you are just showing your great appreciation of yet another Heroes V faction, which is - yes, we know, you remind us with every second post about this - your favourite Heroes and - yes, we know, you remind us with every second post about this - is far better than Heroes III or basically any other Heroes.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted January 16, 2011 10:45 AM

Quote:
So the Fortress was full of Dwarves. So what? No, really. Give me a fact and not an opinion to prove to me that it was a mistake.



Ok, I agree with this. There should be Dwarves in Fortress and plenty of them. But I think 6 out of 7 is a bit on the high side. 4 or 5 would be better. And I consider cavalry units only as half Dwarf units. Think about it, the units are Half Dwarf and Half Bear. Even if they are two serperate beings, they are a single unit.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted January 16, 2011 10:47 AM

Maybe we should discuss Fortress in a dedicated thread?

Anyway, I think it's pretty established that we won't reach complete agreement on that subject. While I agree that lore is secondary and can always be adapted, I think there was actually a point in Ubisoft choosing to have Fortress as a very secluded race with Dwarves taking up a high number of places in the line-up. Thus, they had some factions with many racial units (Fortress, Haven), some with few(er) (Sylvan, Dungeon, Stronghold), and some thematic ones with no race (Academy, Necropolis, Inferno). I think to a degree that was a good attempt at making everybody satisfied (even if one may argue that there could have been one less racial unit in each of the towns).


Quote:
@Alcibiades
I know, right! I'd be all WTF too if someone came with the concept of the Thane to me. But they've gone and done it anyway, and in my opinion turned to be the most amazing unit in the entire game along with the Rakshasa.

About the Firebird/Thunderbird, yeah it really does fit! Since Ashan Dwarves have a kinship to fire and destructive magic in generally. But hey, leave the Firebird for a basic Phoenix unit and the Thunderbird for the Roc. Again, they need to be made into Tier 6 units, and no way in the world would I replace the Thane.

About the Bear Riders... Look, having common animals as faction units, is very underwhelming. And besides, come on, man! The only cooler thing than Bear Cavalry, is Bears that shoots lazer beams from their eyes and ninja wizards!

Well, that is just where I have to say that we disagree. Thanes were (imo) a poor concept, and should have been left out. You could have put in the Roc -> Thunderbird / Firebird instead, and given them exactly the same skills and stats, and it would have made *no* difference in playing style, but would have made the faction more varied.

As for the Bears - yes, I'm not in favor of regular animals. But you could make them magical beasts, thus having them play the same role as Unicorns and Griffins in the line-up.
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted January 16, 2011 10:52 AM

Spirit Bears, Alcibiades? Like the one that appeared in the Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer? They can talk, and they are wise and they command respect with a haunting presence overall. A creature such as this would fit nicely with the dwarven Fortress faction as an elite unit. But dammit, Bear Cavarly is just so freaking awesome!
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mancubus
mancubus


Adventuring Hero
posted January 16, 2011 11:02 AM

Quote:
No, really. Give me a fact and not an opinion to prove to me that it was a mistake.

Let me put it another way. The ONLY common thing between the Fortress' line-up, was the same race. Other than that, the units were COMPLETELY different from each other.


You must be joking, right? You are demanding (!) "facts, not opinions" from others, whereas your own arguments are obviously based on subjective impressions. How's that constructive? (And yes, that was a rhetorical question, I rest this case).

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted January 16, 2011 11:07 AM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 11:15, 16 Jan 2011.

I would like if someone would state what do people mean by the word generic?

One thing I do like about heroes VI is the fact that they try to go beoyned the classical concepts. Some of these attempts are more or less good. The humans seem to me to be less inovativ, A war wagon woudl by a nice change for example

Others like the fate spinner or breeder are things that brake the generic and overused concept and Actually bring something new. (even thou spiders have been used freaquetli latly).
The best example for this could be the Sanctuary. The not common aquatic setting and the use of far Asian theme can really catch the eye of players board with factions like Orcs, and elves.

If we want to talk about a faction proposal, we should think out of the box. And come up with not overused or totally new ideas that would actually fit the setting. Some people may think this is not important but I think do not reallyse that it does matter. and most of the Ideas I saw here today ar generic (rocs, bear, kobolds...)

One I did liked was the firetode...
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted January 16, 2011 11:09 AM

Quote:
Quote:
No, really. Give me a fact and not an opinion to prove to me that it was a mistake.

Let me put it another way. The ONLY common thing between the Fortress' line-up, was the same race. Other than that, the units were COMPLETELY different from each other.


You must be joking, right? You are demanding (!) "facts, not opinions" from others, whereas your own arguments are obviously based on subjective impressions. How's that constructive? (And yes, that was a rhetorical question, I rest this case).


Nope, I never said that my opinions were facts. I was explaining to Kenishi why I liked the Fortress, not comparing it to anything. I wasn't stating facts, I was stating my likes. And then Zenofex attacks me, telling me I was wrong. Wrong on what I like? I don't think so.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted January 16, 2011 11:37 AM

Quote:
Spirit Bears, Alcibiades? Like the one that appeared in the Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer? They can talk, and they are wise and they command respect with a haunting presence overall. A creature such as this would fit nicely with the dwarven Fortress faction as an elite unit. But dammit, Bear Cavarly is just so freaking awesome!

Spirit Bear sounds great!

As for the Bear Cavalry, I found it an idea that looked better on paper than in reality, but apart from that, we have to make the cut somewhere if we want to work towards a Fortress which is, well, less Dwarven. Obviously, if you think all the units in H5 were great, that's nice, but I was trying to work towards something that would also go down with the sceptics.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 16, 2011 11:44 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 11:44, 16 Jan 2011.

@kodial, don't play a victim now, nobody's "attacking" your personal preferences or disputes your rights to have them, but your claims which are stated in a manner that turns these preferences into facts. Which they are not. You're accusing other people of bias while you are showing yourself as pretty biased all the time and react incoherently when exposed.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted January 16, 2011 11:59 AM
Edited by alcibiades at 12:01, 16 Jan 2011.

Peace guys, just stay on topic, I don't see anybody attacking anyone, but no need to make fun of each other's oppinions, and even though this discussion always tends to get a little heated, I don't want it to evolve into a fight.
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted January 16, 2011 12:16 PM
Edited by kodial79 at 12:21, 16 Jan 2011.

Quote:
Quote:
Spirit Bears, Alcibiades? Like the one that appeared in the Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer? They can talk, and they are wise and they command respect with a haunting presence overall. A creature such as this would fit nicely with the dwarven Fortress faction as an elite unit. But dammit, Bear Cavarly is just so freaking awesome!

Spirit Bear sounds great!

As for the Bear Cavalry, I found it an idea that looked better on paper than in reality, but apart from that, we have to make the cut somewhere if we want to work towards a Fortress which is, well, less Dwarven. Obviously, if you think all the units in H5 were great, that's nice, but I was trying to work towards something that would also go down with the sceptics.


Like I proposed: The Brawler. The Berserker could as well be a neutral human unit. With that in mind, he's the most likely candidate to be removed. If you could come up with another sort of caster instead of a runepriest. But no way in Earth, would I ever remove Thanes, Defenders, Skirmisher and Bear Riders. If the Bear Riders were to be removed for Spirit Bears, you have to have some sort of Bear Cavalry as neutral units at least. Their awesomeness will not be ignored!


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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted January 16, 2011 01:10 PM

I think, however, you would be voted down if we put up a survey on how people felt about the Thane concept.
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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted January 16, 2011 01:14 PM
Edited by Jabanoss at 13:15, 16 Jan 2011.

Just to make it clear I hate the H5 Fortress, both playing and most of all FACING IT...
However I do think that the only cool unit they have is indeed the Thane, it is made of pure WIN. (even if I hate facing it as well )

I like that this thread has almost turned in to a religious debate
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 16, 2011 01:15 PM

They all suck, thane was awesome!

Actually the reason for criticism was because they thought it was a dwarf. Nival did not create them as dwarves but were silly enough to never explain they were mountain giants. And frankly what's cooler than a teleporting, nigh-inpenetrable unit with a magical hammer?
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DarkLord
DarkLord


Supreme Hero
Fear me..
posted January 16, 2011 01:39 PM



let's go one by one..

1- Defeneder has been in HoMM universe from Heroes 1 this unit MUST be present in Dwarf faction!

2- Spearwielder no good!!! this unit suck! They could have come up with better looking shooter, like suggested having a big crossbow for example or maybe gunpowder

3- Bear Rider They look cool IMHO.. Could have been Fenris wolf though.. Or Spirit Bear as Archibald suggested. But overall Bear riders are OK

4- Brawler They look... mmm... Silly maybe.. with the skirt.. celt.. no good!

5- Rune Priest Definitely Good! i mean that's the only caster you can come up with in Dwarf Faction

6- Thane The Unit is Pure Awesomeness!!!!! Best Unit in H5 Fortress... BUT a Giant Dwarf???? that's ... BUT if we trust Elvin and this is a Giant and NOT a Dwarf then

7- Fire Dragon IT SUCKS!

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 16, 2011 01:47 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 13:49, 16 Jan 2011.

Personally I don't care at all about the Thanes. Neither like them, nor dislike them, i.e. they are almost perfectly mediocre in my eyes. If there's something distinguishably bad about them, it's not the lack of explanation but the fact that they do look like a random dwarf who's taking way too many steroids. Same body structure, very similar dressing and the damn overexploited beard. Let's say that shaving a dwarf is considered worse than bombing a market square full of people in the real world (I'm sure that some people will find it worse - and they should play Arcanum ), but why not at least shave the bloody mountain giant?

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted January 16, 2011 01:49 PM
Edited by kodial79 at 13:50, 16 Jan 2011.

Quote:
They all suck, thane was awesome!

Actually the reason for criticism was because they thought it was a dwarf. Nival did not create them as dwarves but were silly enough to never explain they were mountain giants. And frankly what's cooler than a teleporting, nigh-inpenetrable unit with a magical hammer?


Hmm, I don't know where I got that but I think I've read somewhere that they are dwarves. Well, I might be mistaken for once too! Heheh...

I hereby hijack the Heroes VI Discussion Thread and turn it into a Thane Appreciation Thread.

I state the obvious: Thane is awesome! In fact, he's as awesome as Rakshasa, and he shares with it the Top of Mount Awesome, on which they will eternally fight their awesome duel to knock each other off the top but alas, both their awesomeness is too much for one to win! All the other units may as well spectate the awesome show!

Well, I don't know how the Ki-Rin will turn out to be... But from H1-5, there ain't nothing more awesome than Thanes and Rakshasas.
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