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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ This Super Thread is 525 pages long: 1 70 140 ... 209 210 211 212 213 ... 280 350 420 490 525 · «PREV / NEXT»
MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 02, 2011 10:50 PM

Thing is though, all their improvements are aimed at ditching kingdom management, turning the game into more of a turn-based-tactical than a turn-based strategic. What's next, ditching wood and ore, ditching special buildings altogether?

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted March 02, 2011 10:52 PM

Some of the stuff I read there, I liked. Some others, I didn't like.

But really now, are the Hungarian fans so lagging behind in the news of the game, as to ask things that we already know about?

Though they did offer some new and interesting information, most of it was just recycled old news.

One thing that got me thinking is how they did not differentiate between spells and skills. Though I knew already that spells will be obtained through skill trees this time, with this Q&A they gave me the impression that they're mixed together in the same sack. Either skills or spells, it doesn't matter to them, they're only divide them between active and passive abilities. To think that we have not seen a spellbook screenshot yet, dare I assume that there could not be any? That would be another classic feature gone. Not sure if I like that...

What I did like the best, though it's kind of old news, is how Might Heroes will be of equal power to Magic Heroes. It was always a grief of mine, that Mages were always stronger than Fighters in almost every game out there. It'll be nice to see fighters standing up to mages for once, without having to resort to magic as well.


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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted March 02, 2011 10:55 PM

I must say I'm not happy about several answers. Overall it seems to have a slight "we know better than you" tone to it.

Cerberus has 3 heads answer is made completely useless - unless they are trying their best to completely ditch even H5! 3 headed dogs are part of Ashan itself now, not just RL mitology or lore.

Saying magic heroes were superior hints at bad multi-player experience. hopefully it doesn't turn might heroes into even more dominant MP force.

Though from what i see it seems Might and Magic might turn out to be the same thing with different names of skills and creatures that benefit from each.

"Ashan-model" of 7 schools also kinda ignores the fact that H5 existed. While i like the 7 schools model more than H5 one, the explanation of reasoning loses me.

Question about neutrals was in relation to faction number, answer ignored that part. Yes, some HoMM games had 8 neutrals, but not with just 5 factions combo.

Anyhow, it wasn't the confirmation of my good hopes, more a confirmation of my fears so far. I will still judge by end product however.
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted March 02, 2011 11:00 PM
Edited by kodial79 at 23:03, 02 Mar 2011.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. If Cerberi are two headed in Ashan, that's fine I guess, but what about the three headed ones of H5? Kinda made me think that these guys don't know what they're doing...

EDIT: Hmm, I just saw the Spellbook pic. Or, well, it looked like one. Glad I was wrong on that. I hope then spells and skills will be two different things in the game, and they won't count in the total of the other.  
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted March 02, 2011 11:04 PM

Quote:
What I did like the best, though it's kind of old news, is how Might Heroes will be of equal power to Magic Heroes. It was always a grief of mine, that Mages were always stronger than Fighters in almost every game out there. It'll be nice to see fighters standing up to mages for once, without having to resort to magic as well.
The Magic heroes start to suck badly against Might heroes if the game gets prolonged and on large maps they almost don't stand a chance. The Magic heroes are in good position when the game is short or on small map. Unfortunately the people who are balancing the game seem to have no idea what multi-player is.

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Willis
Willis


Known Hero
posted March 02, 2011 11:04 PM

I'd say the elements of kingdom management they are ditching were more annoying than strategic for the most part.

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted March 02, 2011 11:24 PM

@Zenofex
Well, in H3, the longer the map, the more powerful a Magic hero would become. A Might Hero with limited access to spells would stand absolutely no chance against the Magic one. It's not about the damaging spells, but the buffing and debuffing spells that would give the Magic heroes an easy victory. Might Heroes' creatures would do more damage but that problem was easily fixed for Magic Heroes with the right spells.

I remember in SoD where Yog would refuse to use any magic at first, and I was hating him for that. Although a Might Hero, he was pretty useless without spells. And that was just vs. the AI. Imagine him in MP, a free kill for his enemies. So even Might Heroes had to cast spells to have any chance of winning. They could use Dispel Magic, Mass Slow/Haste, Resurrection, etc. or the enemy Magic Heroes would just laugh at their face. And here's thing, they're Might Heroes they should not have to use spells to win. They should have their own things to counter them.

I hope this time around, the Might heroes will be able to overcome such conditions more easily, without having to use spells to counter spells and without being defenseless against "dark" spells.



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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted March 02, 2011 11:34 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 23:44, 02 Mar 2011.

@kodial, play a few MP games and you'll see how wrong you are. The late game Might hero has access to the all the spells he needs and can use them pretty effectively and no matter how powerful are the spells of the Magic hero (if we aren't talking about abominations like Conflux + Armageddon), the latter is in serious disadvantage. The army of the mage usually gets slaughtered very fast and he can't use his spells with maximum efficiency. I know you will start inventing theories but let's just skip that part and move to an actual MP game if you want a proof.

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Sherekhaan
Sherekhaan


Adventuring Hero
posted March 02, 2011 11:44 PM

Best news of the Q&A is the RMG is still on the cards!

Too early to talk about means they will have something to talk about.

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Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted March 02, 2011 11:52 PM

I've played a "few" multiplayer games too, Zenofex, and I've never felt that might heroes were anything but weak half-casters.

And part of the problem is that might heroes still have to rely on spells; even if it's a limited selection, you can't deny that there's a strong dependence on magic for might heroes to be successful.  Which begs the question of why they're called Might heroes instead of "Might with a bit of Magic mixed in for flavor" heroes.

I don't know.  When I think of a Might hero, I start looking for things like "such-and-such a unit gains X special ability", or "The Hero's attack action kills more than just three skeletons".  The Magic hero is all about options, and the Might hero should have a different kind of option to utilize.  I'm not convinced that War Cries are much more than spells with a different name.

I liked the Q&A, although there were some things that felt rehashed.  I think he made an excellent point about Ashan being a fantasy world, and they don't necessarily have to play by Earth's rules.  There are a dozen possible explanations for how the cerberus got its third head in the intervening four centuries; but that's not what the question was asking, so it wasn't the one he answered.

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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted March 03, 2011 12:03 AM

Might vs magic discussion happens very often on this forums, lets not taint this thread with it anymore. Most multi-player experts tend to go with Might hero in H3, since it is overwhelmingly better in anything that is not extremely small map. Search for relevant threads for points and reasoning behind it, no need to repeat arguments again.

I still think the overall QA was not encouraging towards fans. To me it seems to be heading towards generic "milking the cow" product.


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lordriton
lordriton


Known Hero
posted March 03, 2011 12:35 AM

Quote:
Best news of the Q&A is the RMG is still on the cards!



Le Breton already told us in a previous interview that they will focus on an RMG for sure !  And that it could maybe even come out on the games release.  So this is rather bad news,  not good,  because now we know it will certainly NOT come out at release day..


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Sorry for my miserable english, i'm french.

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Willis
Willis


Known Hero
posted March 03, 2011 12:35 AM

I dunno, it seems to me like they are trying a lot of interesting things. Heroes V was the reboot of the series, with not a lot of innovative features (esp. in vanilla). Now with Heroes VI they are trying to innovate. I can see the justification for many of the mechanics changes they have made, whether or not I agree with them. I don't want to play a rehash of a previous Heroes.

I think fans tend to overreact to day-to-day news. All the drama gets pretty tiresome.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 03, 2011 12:44 AM

H4 tried a lot of interesting things as well, probably too many, and I'm beginning to feel the same way about this one.

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Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted March 03, 2011 12:53 AM
Edited by Aosaw at 00:55, 03 Mar 2011.

It's very different, I'll give you that.  But as long as Black Hole is doing their job to make the game playable, I don't know that "different" means "bad" in this case.  Maybe not better either, but it's too soon to know what effect these changes will actually have, except in speculation.

EDIT:  Something I just thought of:  They said that you'll only be able to have eight players on a map.  Does that mean that we'll be stuck with the standard eight colors to choose from?  Or will we be able to have a three-player map with Red, White, and Black players?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted March 03, 2011 01:09 AM

In H3 I only played hotseat but all things considered.. Luck, maps and artifacts - magic heroes were pretty damn good. I mean unless a might hero got the awesomesauce earth/air magic with the right spells he could be in disadvantage unless the game dragged on too long. Either way that's not to be taken literally. And by that I mean plenty of spells were overpowered or plain broken to the point of winning games by themselves. So BH is trying to make magic equally important with might in combat so that you cannot OMGWTFBBQ your opponent with spells only, what's so bad about that? It feels like we're splitting hairs here. Everyone's got a point, it's simply a matter of whether you're taking things on absolute terms.

Or criticizing the magic model because H5 was different.. I've got news for you, H6 is a new freaking game. History will write that Isabel was an idiot, not that she had expert light magic and liked to spam mass divine strength.. Would you seriously want the same system and spells so that it makes more sense with the lore? Because I've already seen enough people complaining about H6 following H5 lore too much in a way that restricts faction creativity..
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Willis
Willis


Known Hero
posted March 03, 2011 01:38 AM

Quote:
H4 tried a lot of interesting things as well, probably too many, and I'm beginning to feel the same way about this one.


H4 tried things much different from H6, not to mention it seemed very unfinished and unpolished. The AI, for example. H6 is an entirely different beast. You can see the polish and attention to detail already. Would you rather they made it almost the same as H5 or even H3 with a few negligible changes?

I guess I'm an optimist.

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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted March 03, 2011 01:38 AM
Edited by yasmiel at 01:43, 03 Mar 2011.

Quote:
Or criticizing the magic model because H5 was different.. I've got news for you, H6 is a new freaking game. History will write that Isabel was an idiot, not that she had expert light magic and liked to spam mass divine strength.. Would you seriously want the same system and spells so that it makes more sense with the lore? Because I've already seen enough people complaining about H6 following H5 lore too much in a way that restricts faction creativity..


Nah, magic model is fine, even an improvement from everything seen so far. Negative part was mostly regarding the answer's formulation:

-- "There's a common "umbrella" brand name (Might & Magic), a common setting (the world of Ashan), a common set of rules (the 7 schools of Magic, the revised stat names and meanings, etc.)." --

The name and setting hold truth, but magic system changes from game to game, and current one is not the only one present in Ashan and as such is not "common". They make changes sound like they should have been expected in ubi's parameters, but brings confusion when h5 is put in equation. I welcome the change itself, they should just stop forcing the explanations when there's their own game that defies them .

I welcome the magic system change itself. Feedback is strictly regarding the Q&A.

Now, onto hoping for pre-release of map editor. Got some stories ready
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Willis
Willis


Known Hero
posted March 03, 2011 01:51 AM

Yeah, an early release of the map editor would be awesome. It would be something to keep me sane, at least. I forget if they ruled out that possibility or not. If there is one thing I'm worried about, it's the maps. If they're only gonna release 10 maps, I hope there are some good team hotseat maps in the mix.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 03, 2011 02:07 AM
Edited by MattII at 02:08, 03 Mar 2011.

Quote:
Would you rather they made it almost the same as H5 or even H3 with a few negligible changes?
No, but I would have preferred a few less changes than what they've given us. For one thing, I'll hold to the fact that H3 felt a lot more 'epic', because the hero was obviously a symbol, rather than as in H5, where the towns looked liked tows because most of the environment was scaled to the 'hero' rather than to them. I'd also have liked to see creature experience (from H3:WoG), heroes in combat (H4 style, but properly balanced), more uses for the resources, etc. Basically, I want changes, not reinventions.

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